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lets discuss why are camping and tunneling considered bad?
survivors tunnel gens as killers tunnel survivors to gain an advantage. if a killer tunnels a survivor to make the game a 3 vs 1 it is seen as bad (the whole killers should go for hooks not kills mentality)...yet survivors dont finish a gen halfway leave and go work on another gen unless they are chased off.
killers proximity camping a survivor (especially when the other survivors are injured or there are gens nearby that are regressing/can be patrolled) or in the rare case of a killer having two survivors on a hook close to each other...why would the killer leave to go find another survivor? it makes no logical sense...if two survivors proximity camp a gen (1 leading the killer on a chase so the 2nd can loop back and finish the gen) why is it seen as bad for the killer p.o.v. but not from the survivor p.o.v. when it is the exact same scenario?
both survivors and killer are trying to do their objectives as efficiently as possible especially as their mmr rank rises if they want to get kills or escapes...so why is there such a double standard to camping and tunneling when both sides do it to a degree?
this new ptb patch is going to add a hook escape and perks to make repairing gens even faster so it seems like both objectives from the killer p.o.v. are seen as bad (here is your stick eventually you will get your carrot) so it seems like the developers are fixing the problem for one side.
what are the communities thoughts?
Comments
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oh boy, the whole tunneling gens thing again.
They aren't considered bad per se, just very unfun and unintuitive to play against. A lot of players crutch on these tactics to win when their macro gameplay is lacking. The skill required to tunnel someone is MUCH less than the skill required to make tunneling a losing strategy, same with camping. A lot of Killer powers also synergize well with those strategies making them even more difficult to counter and even more effective.
You, once again, mention the carrot and the stick approach. We have tried the carrot, it didn't work. People kept tunneling and camping because it was easy and effective, not because they had to tunnel to win. Until those two aren't the easiest way to win, they'll continue to stick around.
Post edited by BoxGhost on48 -
the funny thing is it's so common these days I'm able to run at a killer with OTR + DS + Dead hard and make them lose an entire match just to kill me because they fall for all three, that's when you know the situation is getting out of hand. and they get so angry and BM when it happens lmfao
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I tried playing "fair" by going for hooks and I ended the game with 2 on 2 hooks and 2 on one hook. With body blocks etc all 4 escaped. Granted I was playing ghost face but the gen speed is killing the game.
I don't camp but I understand why people do as on average a chase and hook = 2 or 3 gens.
The new scavenger perk is going to be a final nail in the killer's coffin - hope I wrong when update goes live but I have my doubts.
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So.... what is the difference between tunnel gen and survivor?
If you turn the word tunnel survivor in to tunnel gen in your post,it still makes sense.
And about the carrot and srick part, didn't the truth that we have more tunnel and camping now than 6.1.0 prove that stick didn't work at all?
Unless you said that the nerfs between now and 6.1.0 are carrot.
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Tunneling implies tunnel-visioning on one single objective. Survivors have one objective, ergo, they literally can't tunnel gens.
Eruption, CoB, Overcharge, PR, DMS plus all of the basekit Killer buffs WERE the carrot. Killers decided they wanted to keep tunneling and camping because it was easy; so we're trying the stick now.
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What do you mean one object?
Just like killer have 4 survivors, survivor has 7 gens.
If you consider 7 gens is one object,why four survivor can't be considered for one object?
All of your list are being nerfed between now and 6.1.0, and I don't think tunnel and camping has become less than 6.1.0,in fact these stick only increase the tunnel and camping.
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Gens dont have feeling, survivors do.
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Survivor gameplay consists of doing gens, performing altruistic actions, and doing chases.
Camping removes all three from the person being camped, and two-thirds from the other survivors, while also completely stopping killer gameplay.
Tunnelling removes two-thirds from all survivors, as three are left only doing gens, and one is left only doing chases.
In short, both methods completely annihilate the core concepts of the game.
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When Killers had those tools, tunneling increased because it was easier to tunnel, despite the strength of the tools given.
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Yes, killer’s gameplay is a circle of “find survivor-chase-kick gen/pallet-hook” and repeat. Gens being done fast makes them do the circle lesser times. As well as tunneling makes them repeating more times.
Tunneling and Camping affect survivors gameplay categories.
Tunneling leave nothing but chase.
Camping leave nothing at all.
While both of those makes leave other survivors nothing but Gen.
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So...... what you said is that we have less tunnel and camping now than 6.1.0?
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Read it again.
Killers were given buffed gen kick perks (that ended up being so good they were the oppressive gen kick meta for 8 months).
Killers were given universal base kit buffs in 6.1. Survivors received an extra 10 seconds to every gen in the game and reduced sprint on hit nerfs.
Killers increased tunneling harder, despite these changes.
The carrot. Doesn't. Work. And it won't until camping and tunneling are reduced in efficiency. Until that happens, anything that even resembles a buff will be used to camp and tunnel more effectively.
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Watch any good survivor mains play against a good killer and tell me tunneling isn't a necessity.
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Personally i consider a tunnel/camp as bad when i see no sense in it.
Example: The killer needed 1-2 minutes to down someone, a lot pallets are cleared, half map is empty and most strong loops are disabled, and the killer decides to camp the guy on a place where is nothing to defend and can not even build up any pressure. So all the efforts the killer invested into the chase gets worthless because of a not smart camp.
Another example is a bad tunnel. Someone gets unhooked, the killer knows there are a lot of gens which should get pressured and a lot of other survivors are probably easy downs because they are on a place where a lot pallets are gone, but the killer decides to chase the guy in an area with a lot of pallets and nothing to defend and then they wonder about that gens are fixed in no time.
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Because 90% of discussions around “what’s fun” in this game are framed around the perspective of “is X fun for survivors?”. If the answer is no, then whatever X is will automatically be considered bad.
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I hear this a lot. The word "skill" is tossed around a lot in here.
Let's break down the role of a killer.
- Kill survivors
If someone has the word "killer" in their name then you can guess what they're gonna do.
Killer: someone who kills
The role of a killer in DBD: kill survivors
What's so hard to understand about that?
I'm a killer main. And I'm not a nice killer. My job is simple and only has one goal. To kill survivors.
Do we get it now?
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If someone unhooks you right in front of me then I'll get the free hit and then come after you. Simple.
If every one of you are within 10 meters of me trying to body block then I'll slug you all. I will hook you, but you will be slugged. Simple.
After all, you're supposed to avoid me. Not hang out in front of my face.
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Well if survivors would only fix gens 50% and then going to another gen. Killer would go to kick that gen and it would regress to 0%. So how is that fair? When killer hooks survivors he progress his objective and gets pernament pressure. So that is the big difference. So if we rework gens that survivors can only make them 50%. Killer ability to kick them should be removed. But I think best option is not that but to increase gens to 100s or add secondary objective. Then nerf blight and spirit.
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Why bother discussing it? People have been discussing it for years and everybody's position on the topic remains the same. Killers who tunnel and camp see no issue with it, survivors who get tunneled and camped don't like it. The end.
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That wouldn't work because then the games would be nothing more than chases from gen to gen.
What's different between me tunneling someone and two survs camping a gen? In that case it greatly benefits my game to tunnel one of them out. And I will with a great big smile on my face.
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I don't face camp at all. I derive no enjoyment from that. I won't tunnel without a reason (but reasons are easy to come by).
I'm about 320 hours in so I've been discussing it for about a month. 😅
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No?
Games are supposed to be fun for everyone my guy.
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It's quite the double standard really. Killers doing their objective as efficiently as possible ( tunneling) is demonised, while survivors doing their objective as efficiently as possible (gen rushing) is simply considered playing the game well.
I don't think people who do either of these things are bad, since they're literally playing the game as well as possible. It's BHVR's fault that the current game design means the most effective methods are also the most boring the play against.
Survivors understandably hate tunneling because they don't really get to play the game much and end up with barely any BP, and killers understandably hate genrushing because they don't get to play the game much and end up with barely any BP.
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“Tunneling gens” i stopped paying attention when i read that
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Tell that to the survivors who do nothing but hang around and blind killers. I play this game for my entertainment. It's not even a little bit up to me to ensure that you have a fun match. The fact is, I don't care if you have fun or not. Unless you're a friend then you're nothing more than a bot to me.
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Yes well its the same people who do this have some limited success until they play a good team who crushes them and then they get on the forums crying about how broken the game is and how survivor sided it is.
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what even is tunnelling gens? if it means survs prioritizing "gens before frens", yes i also try to confirm hook stages if they are super late for the unhook and i don't see anyone else. but otherwise those "tactics" straight up make the game super unfun for the other side, for me too in fact. wish people didn't resort to such playstyles.
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Cool story bro.
And no, I push back on your simplistic black/white take on the game. It is infinitely more complex than that and you know it.
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Yeah that logic doesn't track at all, both killers and survivors have one single objective so that argument doesn't really work in your favor there.
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If we're going to talk about removing gameplay let's talk about how many stuns and blinds completely neuter the killer over and over throughout the entirety of a match. Realistically this is a game of cat and mouse where the gang of mice mercilessly beat on the cat till it gives up.
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A camped or tunneled survivor leaves the match in barely 2 minutes with 5k BP at most.
Raise the BP to 100k BP for being camped and I will PAY you to stare at me for 2 minutes.
If I'm not able to play my videogame because supressing me is the best "strategy", then you better pay me handsomely.
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Exactly this.
Whats funny is that as hard as they try to fit this word into everything, it doesn’t even make sense. Because in essence if survivors were really “tunneling” gens that would mean that they’d be able to complete their objective by pressuring the same gen. In other words popping the same gen and getting 5 gens worth of objective progress… but who cares about that right? We’re just trying to make a word make sense right? 🤭
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The game as it is currently has become oversaturated with hyper optimization options on the survivor side and low engagement hyper optimal strategies on the killer side. Addressing the overuse of problematic outlier strategies like tunneling and face camping is needed due to the negative play experience these generate overall. These are also easier to address in half measure without having make any substantive changes to the core gameplay loop. Reward structures to incentivize people not to do these strategies in a problematic over systemic fashion don't work as the people you are trying to discourage don't really respond to normal gameplay incentives that already exist. This is what has been proven time and again which is what makes the constant stick and carrot premise to this discussion moot.
The game does have a gen time issue even people don't want to admit it. The variance between the longest it could take to does vs the shortest time it could take to do gens is too massive a jump. Games are trending towards being generally too fast for average killer characters to be comfortably played in all skills levels. The game is old and very optimized with new perks always being added that generally further place more efficiency in objective completion. The added 10 seconds to base gen time is moot as most of that extra time is instantly removed by perks, toolboxes, and extra bodies on gens. There is no good half measure to remedy this issue as unless the core gameplay changes substantially we've probably hit a semi-soft wall at which just adding more time will make any difference without changes to perks and toolboxes. Active and passive gen regression across board has been flattened out, but is still marginally better than none at if you playing killers outside of the overall best few. It should be looked because we're 8 years in and the game needs to evolve.
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Except the game is designed for the killer to apply pressure on survivors by presence and threat of taking a health state. That pressure forces survivors to choose between avoiding damage and their objective.
The only way survivors can 'pressure' the killer is by being near the downed survivor for a save by ignoring gens. They're temporarily ignoring their objective to interfere with a pickup/hook, often with the cost of taking damage.
There's literally no way for survivors to 'chase' the killer away from a hook that they're camping, or force the killer to switch targets from tunneling. The killer can, by mere presence, make survivors stop doing their objective.
Unless you're actually arguing that survivors should be able to damage the killer...
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Because at the end of the day, a 3v1 is much better than a 4v1. There's no reward for spreading hooks and the main objective is to kill survivors.
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Fair enough.
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Oh, I'm fine with flashlight nerfs, but how many times are you getting stunned in a match before you figure out that you can dodge pallets?
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Why get so bent out of shape that a "bot" DARED to blind you?
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Survivors doing gens moves the game move forward, makes progress, and doesnt do anything except move through the game.
Camping/tunneling directly influence another player of the game in a negative way, creating a bad experience.
At the end of the day, if all you're trying to do is win a match, if all you care about is how many kills you get, then by all means do whatever you want.
I like to play powerful killers in a very fair and respectful way, so it feels like a contest of skill rather than how much either team can rack up points.
If you wanna win, and thats fun for you, win. But i (and i would hope at least a few other people) play this game because its fun, and having more people have fun is more enjoyable that winning an online match by any means necessary.
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Whats funny is how some people are hellbend on claiming, that there is no survivor equivalent of tunneling and that survivors literally only have one objective, ie completing gens, and that getting that objective done at any means if fair game and could never be criticised.
But imagine a match where the killer chases and downs a survivor, a gen pops, they chase and down another survivor and hit another, and a second gen pops and the gaming area get closer and while the killer accumulates more hooks, more gens pop one after another, until the final gen just pops when the second survivor gets sacrificed.
And now imagine a match where everyone brings a commodius toolbox with BNP and form two groups with a ProofThyself each and maybe hyperfocus and stakeout thrown into the mix. Before the killer gets their bearing, 2 gens pop, and during their first chase another one, with the forth by the time they hook their first survivor.
In both instances the survivors just did their objective, but the tone of the game and its context is very different. But you can't possible defend this second playstyle as "survivors just doing their one objective. Git gud!". Stuff like that is extremely unhealthy for the game, but the games meta has bread this kinda hyperefficiency into the playerbase, and its not going away by tweaking a couple of numbers or letting survivors unhook themselves singelhandedly. The game is barely held together by patches and bandaid-fixes and needs a thorough and deep cleansing and reset.
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What were the “carrots” that were tried? Other than old BBQ, I can’t think of anything in the game that incentivized killers to not camp or tunnel. And I wouldn’t say old BBQ didn’t work in incentivizing killers to not camp/tunnel. I actually thought it was fairly effective.
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At this point I dodge more pallets then I actually get hit by, despite the 3-ft long hitbox it has. No generally my problem is people spamming flashbang and flashlight and blast mine and head on and boil over and sabotage to basically remove any gameplay the killer has and make a game hilariously unfun.
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The sheer power of Eruption, CoB, Overcharge and PR/DL.
Undeniably the strongest Killer has ever been and Killers still decided they'd rather go crazy with the tunneling.
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No. The game is designed for Killers to kill survivors and survivors to do generators.
In addition taking away health states does not actually add pressure, only downs and hooks do that. A down survivor can't do generators, an injured one absolutely can, not to mention no matter what Killers cannot spread pressure effectively because of the 4v1, there will always be a generator that is being untouched, there will always be a generator going off, committing to a normal 45 second Chase usually results in multiple generators going off against efficient teams, and this is before we consider time lost from flashlight saves and stuns and wiggle outs with boil over and sabotage etc etc.
Just because I hit someone does not mean that prompts them to completely abandon a generator, so if I hit one person and then abandon the chase to go hit another person and then the first person is already back on the generator did I really actually make up anytime doing that?
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I don't. It doesn't bother me at all. It's the principal of it. Somebody said we were all supposed to have fun.
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Survivors 'tunneling' gens puts the advantage on the Killer side. They either A. group up to give the killer extra pressure, or B. Give the Killer an easy Regression delivery point and Intel where at least 1 person will always be. With B., back in the Pop+Tinker days, I won all too many games ( I honestly didn't deserve to) because Survivors would refuse to find a safer or different gen. 'Tunneling' gens is the Survivor falling prey to sunk-cost fallacy.
Most killer ended tunnel/camp scenarios brush against agency. There is no agency in being camped, or being tunneled in certain deadzones. No matter what you do on hook, in the camping scenario an extra hook state will be juiced. Even worse, you see your soloq Surv teammates doing the worst thing imaginable, a 61s rescue (the second after you hit 2nd state on hook, so the killer can turbotunnel you out of the game).
In the case of tunneling, it typically is a deadzone around the hook because the survivor wouldn't have gone down and dropped the pallet if it wasn't. Also many maps are swapping from fair windows to either 1 or 2 God windows and/or 25 unsafe pallets. You can be bloodlusted at those Borgo/Garden pallets, even if the Killer doesn't have a power to shortcut the chase. That basically means every surv is on a 15s-25s timer after getting unhooked, even when they play the best they can (on newer maps).
When a Survivor dies, they can't play the game anymore. When the gens pop, the Killer is still allowed to play, and potentially get that NWO+Blood Warden play. Even if the Killer doesn't have the perks, they can take advantage of the Surv misplays, and maybe get some extra kills out of the match. The game is horribly balanced with 3 players, so it can feel like an exploit to break the game so soon. In a normal killer match, I usually base my strategy around 1/1/1/1, or 1 on hook, 1 in chase/pressured, 1 for rescue/healing after rescue, 1 on gens. If you drop that to 3 players, there is no one to do gens, so it is just waiting for the Killer to win instead. To be fair, if someone AFKed from the start I typically go for risky plays in the 1v3 (as Killer), both to learn more tactics, and to give them a chance to get some BP or otherwise play the game.
Purposely sending a player out of the match can in essence, kind of hold the player hostage in spirit. In a SWF, they aren't playing until the rest of their group dies also. This makes new players (because the new player is dying first more often in a SWF) have to AFK before they are allowed to learn the game again, a horrible experience, which made 2 of my friends (that otherwise would be willing to play) hard quit learning the game. Also even if it isn't a SWF, the Killer's build is hidden until the match is over, (which is never explained in-game, and shouldn't happen in soloq regardless) so if you are learning and want to know how or why the Killer was able to do something, you have to wait.
I agree the problem lies in 'efficiently' playing should be the most fun way to play for everyone. It should be better rewarded to spread the pressure, than focus fire someone out of the game (basekit lesser Grim Embrace that can proc twice, but only if no one is dead). I would go as far as to say soloing gens should be less efficient as well. Healing should be greater incentivized (as both a form of slowdown and BP). Also it should be more punishing to tunnel and camp (only camping was proposed to be nerfed so far with the anti-facecamping measure, even basekit BT backfires as an anti-tunnel mechanism). If a player never did a conspicuous action off of hook, there should be some sort of indicator (maybe glow blue and lose collision) and a tougher time to go for them (maybe built in current perk DS).
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You ruin someone's game not something to celebrate for me. Gens don't have feelings and losing one gen is not big deal but rushing multiple of them ruins killer game so in that way they can be same. But that was not point of my answer survivors has nothing else to do than gens. Killer has multiple options and those other options should be encouraged. Spreading hook progress the objective just slower than tunneling usually. But doing gen only 50% does not as killer can take all that progress away.
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I will never even really understand what the term gen rushing even means. So I'm supposed to just stand there for 20 seconds before I start a gen? Maybe blow it up a couple of times on purpose? Killers can kill without tunneling and camping, Survivors just have to try and do gens as efficiently as possible as it's the only way multiple people are going to survive.
...incoming "but tunneling and camping are the most efficient ways to kill". The easiest way, sure. But I play against plenty of Killers who win or do well by spreading hooks and only camp and tunnel when wisely strategic, not play like those are the end-all be-all ways to win. I would gladly take nerfs to gen speed perks and toolboxes, give Killers basekit Corrupt and see what happens. I bet bad Killers will STILL act like they need to camp/tunnel and STILL find a way to cry about gen speeds.
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I don’t think any of those perks in their former states actually incentivized not camping/tunneling though. They just made those tactics less necessary. So when you say that the carrot approach has been tried already, I don’t agree with that other than old BBQ. A real carrot would be something like if you hook somebody for the first time then the gen with most progress explodes and regresses 10% or something like that. I think there are a lot of creative ways that could be used to reward killers for leaving hooks or downing/hooking other survivors.
I’ve said this many times before, but I really feel that the core issue that is not being addressed is how unfair SWF on comms is at mid to high levels and this is why killers play the way they do. There will always be those sociopaths that have fun making other people miserable no matter what, and you’re never going to be able to do anything about that. But there are plenty of ways to make SWF less oppressive which I really believe would make killers feel like they don’t have to camp and tunnel as much to win. Unfortunately this is never going to happen because BHVR are worried about losing a lot of players if they do anything to handicap SWF teams.
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