BHVR just admitted and proved that tunnelling is an extremely effective strategy
The stats are there to prove it. I don't want to see any survivors denying it's a legitimate strategy or toxic now.
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They've said it before that they feel that tunneling and camping are legitimate strategies...
Like...those words out loud.
I don't think they LIKE that those are effective and useful strategies and have done things to try to combat it (to varying success) but they've said that it's an effective strategy that can be used by killers in the game
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We all knew this, what is the point of this?
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You guys never seen survivors complain about tunnelling at all? This proves that killers are in the right and making the correct play when they tunnel.
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Survivors can (and in my opinion, should) complain about tunneling and camping. It saps all fun and life out of the game for the survivor side.
That doesn't make it not a strategy to tunnel and camp people. It's a strategy. Hell, it can be a POWERFUL strategy. That doesn't make it fun (and if it's not fun, you're gonna get people complaining about it).
Post edited by tippy2k2 on25 -
Ok, but now it's no longer the killer's fault for tunnelling since it's the best play. It's BHVR's fault for making it the best strategy. BHVR has to add incentives to not tunnel if they want killers not to.
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Yes, they need to implement features that combat tunneling, camping, and slugging. They want a balanced game and the ability of the killer to do these things so easily (and earn a lot of BP still in doing so) creates a huge imbalance in gameplay and agency. On a side note, if you want survivors to stop complaining about these things as a strategy then I want killers to stop complaining about body-blocking, teabagging, and healing in front of them which can all be effective strategies (letting teammates get some distance, distracting killers, and using the syringe add-on for a quick heal or mindgaming.) I’ve actually had killers tunnel me for STUNNING them like it was super personal but it’s clearly part of the game and strategic rather than just plain malicious.
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It's basically the equivalent of spawn camping and the developers insisting on it being a valid strategy only for FPS games added in the future to no longer allow it.
Wait until DBD2.
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This is a ######### argument.
Everyone has known that tunneling is the best strategy for YEARS. Everyone has also known that it can be exceedingly unfun.
All you're trying to do is take the blame off of the Killer and say, "See, they had no choice!". If you're gonna play like an ass and tunnel at 5 gens, own it.
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Haven’t they said this for years but also acknowledged they are unfun strategies
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What was the point of this discussion
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The problem isn't for those strategies to exist, is that any killer can do them fairly well that they can be super strong against a lot of survivor teams. (not just baby survivors). Imagine if everyone who picked up Nurse or Blight could play them half-decent from the get go.
If more killers played in this way every game, then those strategies would be addressed a lot sooner. I don't think survivors want to remove the effectiveness of those strategies, as people who are not heavily biased know that against strong survivors you need something other than Nurse/Blight/Spirit, but them having no difficulty to do makes them accessible to every skill level and tunneling/camping are a lot more intuitive for players than looping is.
For example (although Spirit's add-ons got addressed). Her MDR add-on gave her a lot of power but unless you were a good Spirit player you could not make that great use of it. But pairing it with Dried Cherry Blossom basically negated its weakness. So while MDR on its own was skillful enough, anyone could play Spirit like a menace with Dried Cherry Blossom, which is stupid.
So if mechanics that are strong are easy to for every skill level then I don't think people should be silenced. In many games you accept strong characters/strategies because usually they are gated behind some kind of skill or experience. At least that's my take on this whole thing.
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My personal opinion is that while it has some moral implications on the killer, the vast majority of the blame would be on the devs who allow and continue to allow it to happen for, as you said, years.
If survivors were able to exploit game design to their benefit with no repercussions, they would. Both sides are human and have self interests. Players have a tendency to min/max the fun out of any game, actual game developers should understand this.
As they say, "don't hate the player, hate the game".
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Behold, killer using [strategy] is now toxic!
bruh be quiet. just because its unfun doesnt make it toxic. plus its only even an issue for hard tunneling at 5 gens, as a clutch strat its completely fine.
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Of course they drop significantly when you eliminate one survivor. The objective requirement doesn't change when someone is eliminated. 4 survivors or 1 you still need 5 gens done to power the exit gates.
Tunneling is bad for this game.
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Being toxic makes it toxic. I, mean, I’ve said before that of the 3 tunneling can be effective and strategic, but given that the killer has the most power in-game it’s a strategy that is far too easy to pull off. Given the fact that a good portion of killers tunnel not as a last resort (as an actual strategy) but because they know they’re making someone miserable it becomes even more problematic and in that case is most definitely a form of toxic gameplay.
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..what are you on about ?
We've known tunneling was the most effective killer strategy for years. It doesn't take a genius to realize turning a 4v1 into a 3v1 makes things much easier.
Also, no one has ever said it wasn't a "legitimate" strategy, survivors and killers alike complain about tunneling because it's an unfun strategy that should not be the most effective one.
"It's not the killer's fault if they tunnel" yes it is, no one is forcing you to do it. If you do it to go up in MMR until you can't win without it (and inevitably start complaining about the game being survivor sided because you can't keep up) no one is stopping you, but you can't stop survivors from complaining about it.
Finally, if you can't win without tunneling and camping it just means your opponents are better and you should get good.
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So because its powerful its toxic. Does that make using meta perks toxic? or simply playing nurse or blight?
once again just because its miserable doesnt make it toxic.
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The most hated killer strategies only get further cemented every time they implement another survivor safety net.
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Just because it's a strategy doesn't mean you have to like it or think that it's conducive to a fun and healthy gameplay. Just look at gen rushing.
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If you’re doing it just to make someone miserable it’s toxic. Challenging does not equal miserable. Tunneling does not equal challenging.
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You know what is also the best strategy? Bringing 4 toolboxes with BnP stacked up on all of them. Killers complain about it constantly. Guess what? They're right to complain. It's a miserable thing to face off against. Just because it's the most effective doesn't mean it isn't toxic for the game.
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I feel like this post only exists to sow further division, it adds nothing new to the conversation. We've always known tunnelling is strong, we knew that before DBD was released because it fits the logic of an asymmetrical game. BHVR has implemented a bunch of anti-tunnelling options but sometimes tunnelling is so obviously the only way to win that a Killer will eat an OTR, DS and DH in a row just to tunnel someone out because it's more effective than the alternatives. The only way I can see them making tunnelling any less desirable than it already is would be making Survivors lose collision on unhook until they do a conspicuous action or like 30 seconds has passed (it would have the nice bonus of stopping unhooked survivors from bodyblocking the killer).
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by that logic anything can be toxic. Sabotages can be toxic if their used just to upset the killer, slugging can be used jus to annoy the survivor.
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And thats how a majority of players see the game.
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Until gen regression is meaningful then tunneling will be the best gen regression.
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Hahaha hahaha
Eruption, CoB, Overcharge and PR was meta. Guess what? Killers still camped and tunneled with the most oppressive and objectively killer-sided meta we've ever had.
Until tunneling is no longer the easiest and most effective strategy, Killers will still use it.
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Not every killer did or does that, just like not every swf is a rpd boil over sabo squad.
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To quote you directly, "Until gen regression is meaningful"
Gen regression was meaningful. It was the strongest it has EVER been. Killer got basekit buffs across the board. DH and DS got obliterated.
And yet, Killers still tunneled. Most Killers don't need to tunnel in their games, it's just easy and there's no downside.
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I really feel like in your head you built this up and thought this was really something amazing, but really you're only now catching up to the rest of our discussions and it really didn't turn out like how you built it up in reality.
Post edited by Nun_So_Vile on2 -
Devs can’t flat out punish tunneling and camping because a lot of people will lose even more as Killer which may lead to them quitting the role, then the game will revert to 10 min Survivor Queues again.
They either don’t know how to balance the game if tunneling and camping was completely killed or don’t want to. So they go about it in indirect ways like introducing base kits, perks and things like anti face camp. Given how scorched earth BHVR can be with nerfing perks, it’s quite obvious something is holding them back when it comes to killing camping and tunneling for good.
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Lol they've always said its a strat. But they've also advocated for the tunnelled survivors in acknowledging it's not a fun aspect of the game and tried to disincentivize it (ie basekit BT, OTR, recent SH:PR changes). They've also admitted it can be detrimental to killers, in that tunnelling leaves other survivors with nothing else to do but gens, and that tunnelling can put you in an MMR above your skill level (I have the screenshot of the dev saying that).
So you can claim they're encouraging it but their past words and actions say otherwise.
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They can say whatever they wish but the fact still stands, every single person I've tried to get into this game left because camping and tunneling ruined their experience.
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Yes and Blight and Nurse and Spirit are broken at the top levels. What's new again?
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Anyone who ever did a single gen for 30+ seconds as the first thing in the trial or before the first hook should shut up about "tunneling at 5 gens".
Survs dont swap targets every 25 charges of progress but killers are bad for killrushing the first target they find.
Community survivor bias moment.
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Nope. I'm tunnelling because I play to win. Telling me not to use the best strategy just because I'm winning is like telling players in other games to go easier on their opponents because the enemy team is getting stomped. In games like CSGO, LoL, and Dota, the enemy team will NEVER go easy on you if you are getting crushed. They will just keep pushing their advantage to maximize their odds of winning. It's not toxic in the slightest. It's just playing to win.
The main reason to tunnel a survivor out as early as possible is uncertainty and maximizing odds of winning. Say you have 2 hooks on a survivor and 1 gen is done, it's completely possible that you never see or catch that survivor again until 1 gen. Against coordinated swfs, this is a notable risk since they often split themselves up to hide survivors on death hook and and force the killer to chase survivors that haven't been hooked yet. A killer wouldn't know whether they were playing against a swf or not, so the only way to minimize that risk is to always do it from the start. Even against solos, it isn't a certainty that you will catch or find that survivor again, especially on large and strong maps. The play that maximizes odds of winning is tunelling them out at the earliest opportunity. Also, waiting longer to tunnel survivors out defeats the purpose of tunnelling. The point of killing a survivor early is reducing their gen and healing speeds. The longer you wait to tunnel, the less value you get from tunnelling.
They mentioned it that it was a potentially effective or viable strategy but they've never outright mentioned how effective it was. It was more so them acknowledging as a strategy but not commenting on its strength.
"The problem isn't for those strategies to exist, is that any killer can do them fairly well that they can be super strong against a lot of survivor teams. (not just baby survivors). Imagine if everyone who picked up Nurse or Blight could play them half-decent from the get go."
I don't see why tunnelling being easily accesible is a problem. I also disagree with your argument since tunnelling well is closely connected to a killer's chasing skills. For example, tunnelling is easy for anyone to do but if a unskilled killer tried to tunnel a survivor much better than them, they would get looped for multiple gens.
"If more killers played in this way every game, then those strategies would be addressed a lot sooner."
Tunnelling is one of the most prevalent strategies in the game.
"I don't think survivors want to remove the effectiveness of those strategies, as people who are not heavily biased know that against strong survivors you need something other than Nurse/Blight/Spirit, but them having no difficulty to do makes them accessible to every skill level and tunneling/camping are a lot more intuitive for players than looping is."
Fairly sure most survivors would want tunnelling completely killed off if possible. Like, do you see any other comment in this thread from a survivor supporting tunnelling?
There's actually heavy hyprocrisy in your comments. You mention that tunnelling is a "legitimate strategy" but go on to say tunnelling results in the killer being boosted in MMR. Why would I be boosted if I was using a legitimate strategy? The reality is that you don't see it as a legitimate strategy. If you really saw it that way, you would treat it like any other skill or strategy and see it as a normal skill in the killer skill set. Think of it this way, looping is a legitimate strategy. Now replace everything you said about tunnelling with looping and it's clear that you don't view tunnelling as a legitimate strategy.
I've never hated or blamed survivors for running strong strategies and perks like gen rushing, pre-nerf Dead Hard, and pre-nerf DS. I've always blamed the dev for making them strong and not fixing it. It's the same argument I'm making here. Killers shouldn't be hated for tunnelling since they are just playing optimally. It's the dev's fault for making it strong in the first place. If you've ever played any other competitive game, like LoL and Dota, you would think the same way. You don't blame a person for picking a strong Champion/Hero. You blame the devs for making it strong and ask them to fix it.
You're missing the point here. As you've said, it is difficult to further disincentive tunnelling. What they need to do is incentivize not tunnelling, e.g. giving bonuses to a killer for chasing a different survivor, something like Grim Embrace. This brings the power level of not tunnelling closer to tunnelling and reduces the need for tunnelling.
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on2 -
😄😆Strategies😂🤣
It's just gameplay, and a boring one at that. There's nothing special about it.
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Giving bonuses is useless. Killers need help getting into a chase with a different survivor, because it’s unrealistic to expect killers to leave a hooked survivor, to find survivors that are hiding in random places on the map.
The biggest question is “what are killers supposed to do, if the survivors are using voice comms, and will hide far away from generators if the killer leaves the hook, because they are waiting for the killer to move far away enough for the survivors to get a free unhook”? ….. Because the answer is “the killer should just stay by the hooked survivor, regardless of the penalties, because it’s a waste of time to leave the hook.
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There's no hypocrisy, tunneling is a legitimate strategy that has its place in the game (alongside camping and slugging), but it is absolutely a slippery slope that brings a lot of killers up in MMR when they don't have the skills to keep up without using those strategies. Killers who don't rely heavily on tunneling won't have this problem, but killers who constantly hard tunnel at 5 gens are most of the time out of their depth.
Even on this forum you can see the number of posts calling the game survivor sided or asking for survivor nerfs solely based on the fact that the person who made the post can't win without tunneling. These people go against opponents better than them and demand everything gets balanced around them so they can keep up, and it's one of the reasons tunneling is bad for the game.
And although much less popular, an other questionable strategy is a survivor equipping a stealth build with Wake and/or Sole Survivor and stealth until they can escape through the gates. It's not against any kind of rules and is therefore legitimate, but it's not enjoyable for anyone and the survivor's MMR go up until that's the only way they can survive because they don't have the skills to keep up everyone else.
Obviously tunneling is way more popular than this, but it doesn't change the fact that it's really weird how anyone would tell off a survivor who do this and comes complaining about how the game is killer sided bc hiding is the only way they can survive but somehow we're supposed to listen to killers who have been tunneling until they can't keep up and suggest we nerf survivors so they can keep beating people who are better than them.
TLDR: Tunneling is a legitimate strategy but the majority of the time it's not needed and most killers only do it to get easy wins until MMR kicks their *ss and they come crying about the game's balance when really it's just a skill issue.
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Well, the bonus for not tunnelling could be giving aura reading on other survivors if that's your problem. Though, I wouldn't really say that it's hard to find other survivors since you just patrol the gens. Survivors usually get unhooked in the same amount of time I find another survivor and if they get unhooked earlier, I just return to the hook. Tunnelling is strong because it wastes the time of multiple survivors, prevents healing under the hook, and killing a survivor reduces gen and healing speeds.
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There are SWFs that use voice comms, and if a killer moves away from the hooked survivor, then the hooked survivor will warn everyone else on the team, and the other survivors will move away from the generators and hide, because they are purposely waiting for the killer to move far away enough for the SWF to get a free unhook.
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Just use barbeque and chili.
"You cant blame the killer for playing optimally." Sounds like an excuse to say "I'm bad at this game, so I'll tunnel.
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I think a lot of people confuse strategy and fun in this community for some reason.
Literally no one has ever said tunneling is cheating, exploiting, non-viable. It's just boring as hell and unfun to go against. That's literally been the complaint the entire time. This isn't some grand discovery you came across
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Since I started seeing tunneling killers more often than before, I started tunneling as well
Hard tunneling at 5 gens
I have yet to have a match with 4 or 3 escapes. Very rarely a 2 escape (it happens when I know I made mistakes)
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Do you know what hypocritical means? There's no hypocrisy in my comment.
Your MMR increases the more you win. Tunnelling is an effective strategy in that it helps secure kills. Hence, it's a strategy that results in more kills that results in your MMR being boosted.
The game isn't designed though for you to coast on up easily. And eventually the game will match you with opponents that will be able to run you for a long time, hence your strategy will stop carrying you.
I don't really care if you tunnel btw. So this "just admit you don't find it a legitimate strategy" means nothing to me. I'm not sure what validation you're looking for or what youre even trying to say. I don't care what you do, but you're here trying to apply your own meaning to a sentence in the patch notes and I'm here just repeating what a dev has said in the past. They've acknowledged it's a strategy, but they also acknowledged it can be detrimental.
Here's the devs post
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Games like LoL though have a ban system as well as the ability to counter pick champions. DBD has no such feature for the survivor side. Killers can counter survivor items. Also games like LoL also balance on levels that are not pro. So broken things that don't work on a pro level but can be overpowered on other levels get addressed anyway. Also League has way better matchmaking than DBD and it also gives teams tools to communicate without voicechat. SO perhaps since we're using it as an example we have to follow suit and give survivors a ping system.
There's a reason why champions like Azir are bad in low levels and strong in higher levels, because there's skill involved. When there are champions that are strong both on a low and high skill level, they usually get addressed. Doesn't mean bad players don't lose with this champion more than higher skilled players. The same could be said about strategies. if a strategy is so strong for both low and high skill Killers maybe it should be looked at.
Tunneling and Camping are not that hard to think of, because the come naturally to killers. Survivors don't know to loop or use windows etc. and to loop effectively anyway you need to know the maps decently. Survivors' instinct at that level is to usually run in a straight line.
So yeah, for a survivor to be better than a killer in chase means they need to have at least 2 times as many hours as them (maybe even more at lower levels). And your argument could be used for any strong strategy to claim that things should work out ok as long as survivors are better (although you mean way better) than the killer. Which this should be the default anyway? If there's a perk combo/strategy that can by-pass that skill gap, maybe it's too strong after all? What's so difficult to understand about that?
Of course people who will care about winning that they'll play anything look for opportunities to play broken stuff (I mean pros do that all the time). So perhaps to you it's just part of the game that should exist because it rewards you the most.
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Fantastic, you want to win.
So do I. Do I have to tunnel and camp to win? No, I do not. Do I do it anyway because it's easy? Yes. Do I recognize that makes me an #########? Yup.
You cannot give bonuses to not tunneling. That's been tried, it doesn't work. Eruption, PR, CoB + Overcharge. 4 exceedingly strong regression perks.
Guess what, still massive amounts of tunneling. I genuinely thought it'd reduce it at the time. I was wrong.
We've tried the carrot, I'm interested to try the stick.
Post edited by Pulsar on7 -
I think they should create a game mode where tunneling and camping are prohibited, so players who dislike tunneling and camping can play that mode instead. Personally, I don't want to play such a game mode.
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..was this meant for me ? I feel like maybe it really wasn't
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...i feel that you might be correct.
In my defense, I just woke up?
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haha it's fine, I was just taken aback and thought I said something very stupid for a second
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