BHVR just admitted and proved that tunnelling is an extremely effective strategy

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adsads123123123123
adsads123123123123 Member Posts: 891
edited July 2023 in General Discussions

The stats are there to prove it. I don't want to see any survivors denying it's a legitimate strategy or toxic now.

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/397

Post edited by adsads123123123123 on
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  • adsads123123123123
    adsads123123123123 Member Posts: 891
    edited July 2023
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    You guys never seen survivors complain about tunnelling at all? This proves that killers are in the right and making the correct play when they tunnel.

  • DavidHypnos
    DavidHypnos Member Posts: 730
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    Yes, they need to implement features that combat tunneling, camping, and slugging. They want a balanced game and the ability of the killer to do these things so easily (and earn a lot of BP still in doing so) creates a huge imbalance in gameplay and agency. On a side note, if you want survivors to stop complaining about these things as a strategy then I want killers to stop complaining about body-blocking, teabagging, and healing in front of them which can all be effective strategies (letting teammates get some distance, distracting killers, and using the syringe add-on for a quick heal or mindgaming.) I’ve actually had killers tunnel me for STUNNING them like it was super personal but it’s clearly part of the game and strategic rather than just plain malicious.

  • katoptris
    katoptris Member Posts: 3,074
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    What was the point of this discussion

  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941
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    The problem isn't for those strategies to exist, is that any killer can do them fairly well that they can be super strong against a lot of survivor teams. (not just baby survivors). Imagine if everyone who picked up Nurse or Blight could play them half-decent from the get go.


    If more killers played in this way every game, then those strategies would be addressed a lot sooner. I don't think survivors want to remove the effectiveness of those strategies, as people who are not heavily biased know that against strong survivors you need something other than Nurse/Blight/Spirit, but them having no difficulty to do makes them accessible to every skill level and tunneling/camping are a lot more intuitive for players than looping is.


    For example (although Spirit's add-ons got addressed). Her MDR add-on gave her a lot of power but unless you were a good Spirit player you could not make that great use of it. But pairing it with Dried Cherry Blossom basically negated its weakness. So while MDR on its own was skillful enough, anyone could play Spirit like a menace with Dried Cherry Blossom, which is stupid.

    So if mechanics that are strong are easy to for every skill level then I don't think people should be silenced. In many games you accept strong characters/strategies because usually they are gated behind some kind of skill or experience. At least that's my take on this whole thing.

  • Sylhiri
    Sylhiri Member Posts: 178
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    My personal opinion is that while it has some moral implications on the killer, the vast majority of the blame would be on the devs who allow and continue to allow it to happen for, as you said, years.

    If survivors were able to exploit game design to their benefit with no repercussions, they would. Both sides are human and have self interests. Players have a tendency to min/max the fun out of any game, actual game developers should understand this.

    As they say, "don't hate the player, hate the game".

  • nars
    nars Member Posts: 1,124
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    Behold, killer using [strategy] is now toxic!

    bruh be quiet. just because its unfun doesnt make it toxic. plus its only even an issue for hard tunneling at 5 gens, as a clutch strat its completely fine.

  • KateMain86
    KateMain86 Member Posts: 2,244
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    Of course they drop significantly when you eliminate one survivor. The objective requirement doesn't change when someone is eliminated. 4 survivors or 1 you still need 5 gens done to power the exit gates.

    Tunneling is bad for this game.

  • nars
    nars Member Posts: 1,124
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    So because its powerful its toxic. Does that make using meta perks toxic? or simply playing nurse or blight?

    once again just because its miserable doesnt make it toxic.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167
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    The most hated killer strategies only get further cemented every time they implement another survivor safety net.

  • Eelanos
    Eelanos Member Posts: 336
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    Just because it's a strategy doesn't mean you have to like it or think that it's conducive to a fun and healthy gameplay. Just look at gen rushing.

  • DavidHypnos
    DavidHypnos Member Posts: 730
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    If you’re doing it just to make someone miserable it’s toxic. Challenging does not equal miserable. Tunneling does not equal challenging.

  • Wiccamanplays
    Wiccamanplays Member Posts: 126
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    I feel like this post only exists to sow further division, it adds nothing new to the conversation. We've always known tunnelling is strong, we knew that before DBD was released because it fits the logic of an asymmetrical game. BHVR has implemented a bunch of anti-tunnelling options but sometimes tunnelling is so obviously the only way to win that a Killer will eat an OTR, DS and DH in a row just to tunnel someone out because it's more effective than the alternatives. The only way I can see them making tunnelling any less desirable than it already is would be making Survivors lose collision on unhook until they do a conspicuous action or like 30 seconds has passed (it would have the nice bonus of stopping unhooked survivors from bodyblocking the killer).

  • nars
    nars Member Posts: 1,124
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    by that logic anything can be toxic. Sabotages can be toxic if their used just to upset the killer, slugging can be used jus to annoy the survivor.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,537
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  • Barbarossa2020
    Barbarossa2020 Member Posts: 1,327
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    Until gen regression is meaningful then tunneling will be the best gen regression.

  • Barbarossa2020
    Barbarossa2020 Member Posts: 1,327
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    Not every killer did or does that, just like not every swf is a rpd boil over sabo squad.

  • Nun_So_Vile
    Nun_So_Vile Member Posts: 2,084
    edited July 2023
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    I really feel like in your head you built this up and thought this was really something amazing, but really you're only now catching up to the rest of our discussions and it really didn't turn out like how you built it up in reality.

    Post edited by Nun_So_Vile on
  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,046
    edited July 2023
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    Devs can’t flat out punish tunneling and camping because a lot of people will lose even more as Killer which may lead to them quitting the role, then the game will revert to 10 min Survivor Queues again.

    They either don’t know how to balance the game if tunneling and camping was completely killed or don’t want to. So they go about it in indirect ways like introducing base kits, perks and things like anti face camp. Given how scorched earth BHVR can be with nerfing perks, it’s quite obvious something is holding them back when it comes to killing camping and tunneling for good.

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 4,731
    edited July 2023
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    Lol they've always said its a strat. But they've also advocated for the tunnelled survivors in acknowledging it's not a fun aspect of the game and tried to disincentivize it (ie basekit BT, OTR, recent SH:PR changes). They've also admitted it can be detrimental to killers, in that tunnelling leaves other survivors with nothing else to do but gens, and that tunnelling can put you in an MMR above your skill level (I have the screenshot of the dev saying that).

    So you can claim they're encouraging it but their past words and actions say otherwise.

  • Ariel_Starshine
    Ariel_Starshine Member Posts: 937
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    They can say whatever they wish but the fact still stands, every single person I've tried to get into this game left because camping and tunneling ruined their experience.

  • Beatricks
    Beatricks Member Posts: 857
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    Yes and Blight and Nurse and Spirit are broken at the top levels. What's new again?

  • Raptorrotas
    Raptorrotas Member Posts: 3,215
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    Anyone who ever did a single gen for 30+ seconds as the first thing in the trial or before the first hook should shut up about "tunneling at 5 gens".

    Survs dont swap targets every 25 charges of progress but killers are bad for killrushing the first target they find.

    Community survivor bias moment.

  • adsads123123123123
    adsads123123123123 Member Posts: 891
    edited July 2023
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    Nope. I'm tunnelling because I play to win. Telling me not to use the best strategy just because I'm winning is like telling players in other games to go easier on their opponents because the enemy team is getting stomped. In games like CSGO, LoL, and Dota, the enemy team will NEVER go easy on you if you are getting crushed. They will just keep pushing their advantage to maximize their odds of winning. It's not toxic in the slightest. It's just playing to win.

    The main reason to tunnel a survivor out as early as possible is uncertainty and maximizing odds of winning. Say you have 2 hooks on a survivor and 1 gen is done, it's completely possible that you never see or catch that survivor again until 1 gen. Against coordinated swfs, this is a notable risk since they often split themselves up to hide survivors on death hook and and force the killer to chase survivors that haven't been hooked yet. A killer wouldn't know whether they were playing against a swf or not, so the only way to minimize that risk is to always do it from the start. Even against solos, it isn't a certainty that you will catch or find that survivor again, especially on large and strong maps. The play that maximizes odds of winning is tunelling them out at the earliest opportunity. Also, waiting longer to tunnel survivors out defeats the purpose of tunnelling. The point of killing a survivor early is reducing their gen and healing speeds. The longer you wait to tunnel, the less value you get from tunnelling.

    They mentioned it that it was a potentially effective or viable strategy but they've never outright mentioned how effective it was. It was more so them acknowledging as a strategy but not commenting on its strength.

    "The problem isn't for those strategies to exist, is that any killer can do them fairly well that they can be super strong against a lot of survivor teams. (not just baby survivors). Imagine if everyone who picked up Nurse or Blight could play them half-decent from the get go."

    I don't see why tunnelling being easily accesible is a problem. I also disagree with your argument since tunnelling well is closely connected to a killer's chasing skills. For example, tunnelling is easy for anyone to do but if a unskilled killer tried to tunnel a survivor much better than them, they would get looped for multiple gens.

    "If more killers played in this way every game, then those strategies would be addressed a lot sooner."

    Tunnelling is one of the most prevalent strategies in the game.

    "I don't think survivors want to remove the effectiveness of those strategies, as people who are not heavily biased know that against strong survivors you need something other than Nurse/Blight/Spirit, but them having no difficulty to do makes them accessible to every skill level and tunneling/camping are a lot more intuitive for players than looping is."

    Fairly sure most survivors would want tunnelling completely killed off if possible. Like, do you see any other comment in this thread from a survivor supporting tunnelling?

    There's actually heavy hyprocrisy in your comments. You mention that tunnelling is a "legitimate strategy" but go on to say tunnelling results in the killer being boosted in MMR. Why would I be boosted if I was using a legitimate strategy? The reality is that you don't see it as a legitimate strategy. If you really saw it that way, you would treat it like any other skill or strategy and see it as a normal skill in the killer skill set. Think of it this way, looping is a legitimate strategy. Now replace everything you said about tunnelling with looping and it's clear that you don't view tunnelling as a legitimate strategy.

    I've never hated or blamed survivors for running strong strategies and perks like gen rushing, pre-nerf Dead Hard, and pre-nerf DS. I've always blamed the dev for making them strong and not fixing it. It's the same argument I'm making here. Killers shouldn't be hated for tunnelling since they are just playing optimally. It's the dev's fault for making it strong in the first place. If you've ever played any other competitive game, like LoL and Dota, you would think the same way. You don't blame a person for picking a strong Champion/Hero. You blame the devs for making it strong and ask them to fix it.

    You're missing the point here. As you've said, it is difficult to further disincentive tunnelling. What they need to do is incentivize not tunnelling, e.g. giving bonuses to a killer for chasing a different survivor, something like Grim Embrace. This brings the power level of not tunnelling closer to tunnelling and reduces the need for tunnelling.

    Post edited by adsads123123123123 on
  • I_am_Negan
    I_am_Negan Member Posts: 3,756
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    😄😆Strategies😂🤣

    It's just gameplay, and a boring one at that. There's nothing special about it.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,328
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    Giving bonuses is useless. Killers need help getting into a chase with a different survivor, because it’s unrealistic to expect killers to leave a hooked survivor, to find survivors that are hiding in random places on the map.

    The biggest question is “what are killers supposed to do, if the survivors are using voice comms, and will hide far away from generators if the killer leaves the hook, because they are waiting for the killer to move far away enough for the survivors to get a free unhook”? ….. Because the answer is “the killer should just stay by the hooked survivor, regardless of the penalties, because it’s a waste of time to leave the hook.

  • adsads123123123123
    adsads123123123123 Member Posts: 891
    edited July 2023
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    Well, the bonus for not tunnelling could be giving aura reading on other survivors if that's your problem. Though, I wouldn't really say that it's hard to find other survivors since you just patrol the gens. Survivors usually get unhooked in the same amount of time I find another survivor and if they get unhooked earlier, I just return to the hook. Tunnelling is strong because it wastes the time of multiple survivors, prevents healing under the hook, and killing a survivor reduces gen and healing speeds.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,328
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    There are SWFs that use voice comms, and if a killer moves away from the hooked survivor, then the hooked survivor will warn everyone else on the team, and the other survivors will move away from the generators and hide, because they are purposely waiting for the killer to move far away enough for the SWF to get a free unhook.

  • Depressedlegion
    Depressedlegion Member Posts: 287
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    Just use barbeque and chili.

    "You cant blame the killer for playing optimally." Sounds like an excuse to say "I'm bad at this game, so I'll tunnel.

  • Rudjohns
    Rudjohns Member Posts: 1,737
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    Since I started seeing tunneling killers more often than before, I started tunneling as well

    Hard tunneling at 5 gens

    I have yet to have a match with 4 or 3 escapes. Very rarely a 2 escape (it happens when I know I made mistakes)

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 4,731
    edited July 2023
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    Do you know what hypocritical means? There's no hypocrisy in my comment.

    Your MMR increases the more you win. Tunnelling is an effective strategy in that it helps secure kills. Hence, it's a strategy that results in more kills that results in your MMR being boosted.

    The game isn't designed though for you to coast on up easily. And eventually the game will match you with opponents that will be able to run you for a long time, hence your strategy will stop carrying you.

    I don't really care if you tunnel btw. So this "just admit you don't find it a legitimate strategy" means nothing to me. I'm not sure what validation you're looking for or what youre even trying to say. I don't care what you do, but you're here trying to apply your own meaning to a sentence in the patch notes and I'm here just repeating what a dev has said in the past. They've acknowledged it's a strategy, but they also acknowledged it can be detrimental.

    Here's the devs post


  • JustAnotherNewbie
    JustAnotherNewbie Member Posts: 1,941
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    Games like LoL though have a ban system as well as the ability to counter pick champions. DBD has no such feature for the survivor side. Killers can counter survivor items. Also games like LoL also balance on levels that are not pro. So broken things that don't work on a pro level but can be overpowered on other levels get addressed anyway. Also League has way better matchmaking than DBD and it also gives teams tools to communicate without voicechat. SO perhaps since we're using it as an example we have to follow suit and give survivors a ping system.


    There's a reason why champions like Azir are bad in low levels and strong in higher levels, because there's skill involved. When there are champions that are strong both on a low and high skill level, they usually get addressed. Doesn't mean bad players don't lose with this champion more than higher skilled players. The same could be said about strategies. if a strategy is so strong for both low and high skill Killers maybe it should be looked at.

    Tunneling and Camping are not that hard to think of, because the come naturally to killers. Survivors don't know to loop or use windows etc. and to loop effectively anyway you need to know the maps decently. Survivors' instinct at that level is to usually run in a straight line.


    So yeah, for a survivor to be better than a killer in chase means they need to have at least 2 times as many hours as them (maybe even more at lower levels). And your argument could be used for any strong strategy to claim that things should work out ok as long as survivors are better (although you mean way better) than the killer. Which this should be the default anyway? If there's a perk combo/strategy that can by-pass that skill gap, maybe it's too strong after all? What's so difficult to understand about that?


    Of course people who will care about winning that they'll play anything look for opportunities to play broken stuff (I mean pros do that all the time). So perhaps to you it's just part of the game that should exist because it rewards you the most.

  • イエローミント
    イエローミント Member Posts: 166
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    I think they should create a game mode where tunneling and camping are prohibited, so players who dislike tunneling and camping can play that mode instead. Personally, I don't want to play such a game mode.

  • Annso_x
    Annso_x Member Posts: 1,611
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    ..was this meant for me ? I feel like maybe it really wasn't

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,488
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    ...i feel that you might be correct.

    In my defense, I just woke up?

  • Annso_x
    Annso_x Member Posts: 1,611
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    haha it's fine, I was just taken aback and thought I said something very stupid for a second