BHVR need to stop rewarding survivors for making a mistake
Comments
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Having something happen when you "fail" isn't necessarily a problem on its own, its that its way too strong.
i.e. Desperate Measures and Spirit Fury are fine, MFT isn't.
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I chuckled. As those exact things were mentioned as killer mistakes right above your post.
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Sure, Deadlock and corrupt are obvious picks, free slowdown, info and map control.
There is a ton a free value perks that are good but not really top tier, or just decent, so i won't be talking about them(banboozle, brutal strength, fire up, overcharge if you still making SM 3 gn builds).
But more examples:
-NWO, yes you can make the perk stronger but the perk has free value in itself
-NOED, i don't care if people think it's bad, pros use it all the time, it can singlehandly give you kills you had no business getting
Discordance, free info
Sloppy butcher, apply 2 status effects for free on all basic attacks
Nowhere to hide, free info on all kicks to gens
Lethal pursuer, free info and powered up auras
Tinkered, free info and stealth
There are more examples, but maybe a bit too niche. Also i don't think this is a problem, i am not saying any of this perks are problematic.
I agree that MFT are 2 perks in one for no reason and that the endurance should be removed and Haste shouldn't stack at all.
I just don't want to hear arguments that are not true with the rest of the game and hearing people trying to make their role some kinda of victim. Thats what annoyed me about all of this conversation.
You are free to disagree with some of my points, but hope you understood where i am getting at.
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So using For the People or taking protection hits is making a mistake?
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If the gens don't pop you already won the game so no wasted perk slot. If they cleanse all totems you got additional 70+ s to try to win the game. Sounds pretty good to me.
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How long did it take to nerf dh to what it is now?
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1) Bloodlust is a band-aid fix for bad map design. It's not a reward for Killers being bad, it literally enables the possibility of winning a chase.
2) Auto window blocking is, again, a band-aid for bad map design to stop infinites using god windows. It has nothing to do with Killers being bad.
3) You get slowed by falling from high places, it's generally how high places work. Brace for impact or break your legs.
4) Injured Survivors make pained noises after being stabbed horribly. I mean, obviously.
None of what you said rewards Killers for being bad.
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Killers compained about the efficiency of survivors. This has always been the chase. It is also frased: "gens go too fast"
Medkits and coh made survivors extremely efficient. They didnt have to heal together. One survivor gts injured and runs to a very safe zone. The killer leaves them to apply pressure somewhere else. The survivor heals themselfes in 6 seconds. No help required. No other survivor had to get off gens.
Now the problem hasnt really shifted. Survivors are now too efficient because they stay injured instead of healing, which would slow down the game. Nobody can blame them. Its the most efficient way to play. The killer can only pressure you when they are near you. For most killers, this means running across the map. And when they are finally at the survivors position, they have 3% extra movement speed and 9% extra vaulting speed to extend the chase until adrenaline procs and hope finishes the rest.
I dont know how your games as killer are, but i see anti tunneling perks once every 3 games now. No ds, no otr. The builds i see the most consist of: Made for this + Hope + Adrenaline + Windows of opportunity + Resillience with the occational lithe or sprint bust.
And here comes the fun part: For Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Spirit, Oni and Plague, this is absolutely fine --> managable. However, lower end killers now have to fight uphill battles every game now.
I main Pig and Demo. As Pig i lose my first two / 3 gens to the first chase if the survivor only predrops and im reduced to m1- killer - pallet break - bot. I try to NOT injure survivors when i can avert it, because i know that this huts me more than them.
As Demo, believe it or not, this is even worse. Thanks to made for this, close corner hits that take precision, timing and understanding of Demos hitbox do not hit anymore because the survivor makes it out of the danger zone.
Injuring people speeds up gens instead of slowing them down.
Killers want survivors to be less efficient on gens. Thats it. With less efficiency also comes less tunneling and camping in my opinion. At least i would go for more chases if that where the case.
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Any non-biased killer player will tell you that they understand NOED is unhealthy for the game; however, MFT is also unhealthy for the game, and even worse for it than noed because there is literally no counterplay to it other than "guess ill just run around this circle 5 times instead of 3 🗿"
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4 of them with multiple second chance perks at least somewhat more fair than "injured survivor go brrrrrrrrrr"
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The real complaint is that being injured means nothing anymore because of the amount of endurance perks and haste effects.
What's the point of rejoicing over the devs taking steps to make healing less effective if you can just tank two, three or even four hits anyway?
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That's not what I said, and I'm not making a statement about everyone who plays killer.
Just people who have constantly complained for years that survivors were healthy butnow are just playing injured, which was the obvious effect of the medkit changes. These types of people seem to be genuinely offended that survivors aren't dead when the match starts, or think they deserve a 4k because they have the god tier skill to click 'play as killer' at the main menu.
I like to think that's a small minority of people, but there seems to be an inordinate number of them that have more skill in posting on the forums to complain and get daddy BHVR to nerf things for them than they have any actual skill in game.
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Firs you said meta, not good perks. Many of those are not meta perks which is what the conversation was about.
The conversation is about good meta perks that give free value.
sloppy isn’t free, it’s requiring hits which requires you to have outplayed people and to get the hemorrhage value you have to be interrupting people.
NWTH isn’t free, it’s costing you kicking gens which is a very high cost. You don’t want to be kicking gens.
NWO is only giving you real value if you hooked each survivor once. Meaning it required you to outplay people to get hooks in the first place and then to play in a more fair way.
Tinkerer sure, not that great of a perk though. We’re talking meta perks. The perk has to be very good and meta value and be free.
Discordance is actually low key decent, but not a meta perk.
NOeD and Lethal I’ll give you although I think Lethal really isn’t that great and way over rated. NOED is bad design and I want it changed.
Those perks you mentioned are good but not top tier aren’t worth mentioning as they don’t fit high value plus no requirement which is what the conversation is about.
If a role is not balance well and someone points it out that doesn’t make it all the sudden that they’re painting someone as a victim, they’re literally just pointing out a problem.
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Why do perks such as Resilience and Made For This exist and basically rewards you when you're injured? You should not be rewarded for making a mistake in the game.
You want the game to be balanced around injuries being a survivor mistake, we'll need to bring back infinites.
And no one wants that.
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This "rewarding for mistakes" has always been the most dumb argument I have ever seen.
As long as Bloodlust exists I dont make an mistake if the Killer decides to bruteforce Bloodlust. And this is just one example.
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I like how everyone complains about resilience injured meta 24/7 but always ignores SLOPPY BUTCHER, 2nd most popular perk totally OP after heal nerfs, if you try to heal against that you just lose the game
if bhvr nerf injured meta they better nerf sloppy too, stop making solo q more miserable than it needs to be
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This is a very good point. You see Sloppy Butcher in almost every game, I would say that the healing speeds are more often than not affected by Sloppy Butcher. Every Killer who relies on basic attacks runs Sloppy Butcher and even some Killers who dont need to rely on basic attacks do so (I see a lot of Weskers running it). Even Nurse has an Add On which inflicts Mangled and I see it on almost every Nurse I face. (I dont really know who had the idea that she should have such an Add On. Removing the Synergy with Sloppy Butcher was good, giving the Killer who does not need Add Ons in the first place a Mangled-Add On was not really a smart move)
So no wonder Survivors prefer to be injured if you heal for such a long time (a discussion which was around since the Healing-Nerfs in 2018).
Granted, the only thing I would nerf on Sloppy Butcher would be to remove the Hemorrhage-effect. It was fine to have both Mangled and Hemorrhage when the latter was only a bad tracking tool. But nowadays a Perk or Add On should not inflict longer Healing and Healing Regression.
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I can call whatever top tier, i will find anyone say it isn't.
I already got called out in the foruns for saying that perks like corrupt, deadlock or pain res for being top tier, apparently these perks are not used enough and need buffs.
So if people are going to complain about it, i will just say a perk is strong or viable and be done with it.
I don't even care if a perk is top tier or not, i only care if the perk is usable, viable or OP.
MFT is OP, buckle up is dumb. There is no single killer perk that i would call OP right now, aka there isn't a single killer perk that would call for nerfs.
So if a perk is top tier or strong is the same for me, as long as it doesn't cross either line to become OP or meme build is the same.
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Isn't Deadlock a feature that rewards you for your mistakes?
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then your problem is with pallet placement, not resilience
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It isn’t a good perk. In my experience as both survivor and killer, those type of games usually end in 1-2k for the killer. It is very rare that the killer gets everyone because of NOED.
Post edited by EQWashu on3 -
I actually agree with most of these statements you made. Those perks are definitely top tier and do not need buffs (although I did think CI ending early was a bad change). I agree about MFT and Buckle Up as well.
I think the only thing I disagree with you on is that all the top tier or viable killers perks are free and don’t require anything. I would actually say the majority of the killer meta perks/top tier/viable perks, 90% of them have multiple requirements or downsides. Very few are actually just free “very good” value for absolutely nothing.
I would also argue that those few that are actually very good and “free” per say are actually required to be that way given the way the game is currently balanced. For example I’m mainly referring to CI and DL. Both are the only answer to a swf that just pre drops all the pallets and you lose before they run out. These perks slow the gens down even if they do this, whereas requirement perks like Jolt or PR would do nothing to slow them down here. This is why you see most high mmr killers run CI and DL since most the swf they face will be doing this pre dropping and it’s the only counter play they have.
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botany gives +50% healing speed, coh gives you +100 healing speed for your whole team + shows auras
but yes you are right a killer perk that gives 25% OP healing slowdown
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The question is what would the killer have gotten if he didnt have noed but a different perks? Many times the killer only manages to get those 1-2 kills because he had noed, I mean thats pretty huge for a perk if it basically gives you on 1-2 kills on average..
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I am fine with even with perks like CI and DL.
Again, i never meant to say that they need nerfs.
CI is good but it is only active until the first down. And deadlocks duration and limited activation makes it ok, especially since you can do other stuff like heal or re group.
They are really good on every killer and i think it's fine. The game needs strong perks.
My complaints to killers is on specific killers or add-ons. I can't think of any killer perk that i think needs nerfs right now. Which is something i can't say about survivor's, MFT and Buckle up are not ok.
I just hope when they change the perks they can still be viable, because bhvr has way too much of a habit of killing perks when they nerf them.
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I started doing better when I got rid of it and focused on either gen regression or tracking perks. I think NOED is the most notable example of confirmation bias in this game. People only remember the match that they died because of NOED, and not the matches in which it made no difference.
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Lol they want the games to be like when cheaters come in, teleport to us, insta down and hook insta death game lol
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MfT is a whole other conversation, but… Resilience? Really?
Being injured isn’t a “mistake” on the survivors behalf, it’s a basic part of the game and is pretty much expected in every game. With resilience there’s a trade off: you may get the 9% speed boost but you’re vulnerable as you’re injured, and therefore much easier to track and be downed. As others have said, it’s a “comeback” perk, the same idea as a killer having perks like NOED, Bitter Mumur, Coup, etc. it’s making the “best of a bad situation”.
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The way both sides complain about some things I won't be surprised if the game is nothing but bots at the end of the day. I get so many ppl dcing or suiciding on hook I'm surprised anyone's playing. I think everyones holding out for hope for when alien drops
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I agree as well
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I mean fair, but then again how often does it happen that an otherwise baby killer gets multiple kills just because of noed? Ofc you will remember those games better because the guy got destroyed the entire game and maybe 2-3 hooks and then got lucky because of one perk.
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The healing nerfs went to far, which is obvious from the outcome.
Healing, as well as booning, were *good* things for the killer. Time spent looking for a totem, blessing, running to and from the boon aura, and even the ~22s spent self caring were all time spent not on gens.
The devs did exactly what killers asked for and 'made healing suck'. Killers seem to have had this vision of survivors running around blindly, looking for heals and wasting minutes of time for those same health states.
But that isn't the end result. The obvious outcome from 'making healing suck' is that survivors will stop doing it entirely. All that time spent setting up, running around, and healing is entirely on gens now. No one bothers setting up a boon at the start of the game, instead they just get on gens.
If 'gens fly' now, that's 100% the reason. The only secondary objective survivors have ever voluntarily chosen to go do was deleted completely.
As with dead hard and various other changes over the past year, killers got exactly the change they asked for, it just isn't what they wanted.
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Healing nerfs were required because a survivor being able to solo heal 5 times from 1 medkit or infinite times with COH was by all intents and purposes, busted.
The goal of the Healing nerf was to encourage survivors to find a teammate to heal, hence both wasting 16s (32 charges not on gens) or in the case of a double heal, 32s (64 charges not on gens).
However developer oversight forgot that resillience existed, and as such survivors would rather stay injured and slam gens faster. Instead of injuries being bad, they became a survivor buff. (From a potential -64 charges, went to minimum of + 7.5 charges )
Now with MFT also buffing the injured state, survivors are even less inclined to heal up.
And that is the exact reason gens "fly". The injured state is no longer a negative, but a positive.
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You’re proving my point…. A perk that does that 1 in 10 matches isn’t a good perk
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I wouldn't mind this but I think at least bloodlust 1, and maybe 2, should stay, until some map areas are reworked.
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So Survivors getting hit is a "mistake" now? Sure, let me play for an afternoon and just never get hit LOL this is just getting insufferable at this point.
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This argument is resting on a few faulty assumptions, though.
The main thing it's resting on is the assumption, stated outright so I hope you'll agree I'm not putting words in your mouth, that healing was overall a net positive for the killer. Survivors had their strong sources of healing, and in exchange, killers got the time investment the survivors were putting in to heal as generator slowdown. The issue with this is that healing speeds were so fast before that the killer wasn't getting anything at all from it. Injuries weren't slowdown or pressure, because survivors could and would heal themselves faster than a teammate doing it multiple times per match, with the only real investment required being at least one CoH and a medkit with good addons.
Another thing your argument seems to be resting on is this statement that the devs "made healing suck", which I find an odd statement considering the devs didn't even touch healing in general at all after reversing course from the PTB. The only healing that they changed at all was Circle of Healing and medkits, neither of which were even made to suck, let alone comprising the entirety of healing. Even self healing wasn't made to suck entirely after the nerfs, it was just made no longer faster overall than having a teammate do it without serious investment, which is pretty obviously how it should be.
Now, I do want to make clear that I don't personally think it's a problem that survivors stay injured, even if I don't actually see that bearing out as the reality in either my killer or survivor matches- survivors can heal up perfectly well, and they do in a majority of my matches. I don't think that staying injured would be a problem, though, and I think even the strongest 'stay injured' tools in the game don't fully overcome the inherent risk of playing minus one health state. I just think it's wild how many people seem to think healing became completely impossible just because you can't specifically self-heal faster than having someone else heal you as easily anymore.
To put my two cents in on the gen speed argument, if your gens are flying (and it's not the survivors bringing busted toolbox and perk setups), it's probably a lack of macro pressure on your part. That may not be your fault, good luck applying macro pressure as Trapper on Mother's Dwelling, but it is probably what's happening.
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I think in the minds of some posters, reverting the healing changes while keeping the generator regression perk nerfs is perfectly fine and balanced to them.
Also the comparison between Bloodlust and MFT is pretty laughable when Bloodlust was obviously not designed because Survivors had MFT but because of bad map design but this fact is seemingly glossed over.
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I'm not arguing one way or the other that the healing changes went too far.
All I can tell you is, as somebody who has just come back to the game from a year (perhaps slightly longer) break, the game is in a worse state now than it was when I left. There have been good changes without a doubt, but both sides have it significantly easier when it comes to making the game really not fun for whoever they're playing against.
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Buff Thanatophobia again.
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Good points.
It's just killer will never stop complaining about survivor strategies.
Survivors were staying injured before CoH come-out and DH was super meta.
Killers: Staying injured is so safe, survivors has not another objective. They are doing only gens.
BHVR added Boons to game for give survivors another objective. Now CoH was super meta and survivors was wasting a lot time to bless totems and heals.
Killers: Survivors are always full health. We have no pressure on them. Hitting them is pointless because they will heal.
BHVR nerfed CoH and medkits to ground and killed Dead Hard for make staying injured even more risky. Sloppy Butcher buffed for make healing even worse. After these Adrenaline and Ressilience is now meta perks. Survivors are focusing on gens even more for not waste time with healing.
Killers: Survivors are staying injured and focusing on gens. Nobody is healing.
They will never stop to complain tho. Unless BHVR decide to make survivors start trial on hooks. I am sure someone will complain about 4% chance is so high and rewarding.
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Where does BHVR does anything rewording for the killer there. Its the only option for the killer if its not going well. If he/she would play in an more fun way (for the survivors) he would lose very very hard. So why shouldnt he/she tunnel if its not going well? Also I see NOED as the Exhaustion PErk for killers. You get hit the entire round by exhaustion perks so NOED is just there to get the pressure back you lost from the exhaustion perks.
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The same can be said about NOED, Blood Warden, and No Way Out, why is the killer being rewarded for not finishing their objective before 5 gens have popped or heck even when the gate has been opened? Why be rewarded by a perk that insta-downs survivors and rewards a killer who hasn't been doing so otherwise?
Both sides have those types of perks. If you want to remove or nerf one side then you have to do the same with the other side to keep it balanced.
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Yes, NOED is unhealthy for the game, but the whatabout-ism doesn't help anything.
We should be, after seven years, at a point where we could remove bloodlust for killers, but the maps are still so unbalanced that most killers would suffer from it. This is the same reason nobody will use that new Alien perk after release week.
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Thank you for proving my points.
Exactly that. Killer plays bad, going to lose game. But don't worry. Your best buddy BHVR is allowing you to tunnel, camp for coming back. You made mistakes? Don't worry. BHVR is watching your back.
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People in general tend to gloss over things when they aren't interested in seeing how other people are negatively effected by it. That's honestly the biggest issue I have with this community in general on both sides.
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Cool take them.
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The way i understand what killers want is passive slowdown in the form of injured/healing nerfs, without survivors getting anything in turn to balance the scales. They want Thanatophobia basekit (and better) most just can't say it.
When they say staying injured has no cost they mean, it has no cost on gen speed or survivor actions. The want being injured, except for a risky state, to also be a debuff for the survivor in general. That's what I understand they want. I've only seen a few admit to wanting Thanatophobia basekit, but from their complaints that is what I get. Perhaps Thanatophobia only for gens so as to incentivize healing, otherwise if healing still takes a lot of time, then in that case doing gens injured will again be the better strategy.
The only scenario I can imagine that would incentivize getting healed is receiving a 50% slowdown on gen speed if you are injured. But we all know in such a case solos will be the sacrificial lambs again and then we'll have complain threads over Bond, Empathic Connection etc. which would become meta for solo survivors.
But with Sloppy Butcher running rampant they indirectly *disincentivize healing lol.
Post edited by JustAnotherNewbie on3 -
Killer missing with his power (alien,nemesis etc) = get punished with long animation
Survivor failing in looping and taking a hit = get free boost and eternal 3% haste while injured.
seems balanced
let's be real, the only reason mft+res is not completely game breaking is because bloodlust exists, even though bloodlust is in the game for a completely different reason. I'm glad people caused such an uproar because of this imbalanced nonsense.
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