Nightmare Rework to reflect the ambiguous Dream World transition
Ofc a Freddy rework is already in the pipeline from BHVR, but I'd like to throw out my hand at looking at Freddy as a long term Nightmare on Elm Street fan.
I wasn't around for old Freddy, and the original version seems pretty nuts, so I'm not gonna suggest that... however I want to try and capture more of a NoES vibe that the Old Freddy seemed to have with this suggestion, while also making him generally stronger... but I am a pretty new player, so I'm not arrogant enough to say I know what would be best, so criticism/feedback is more than welcome and actively encouraged!
I'll put my reasoning in spoilers for those of you who enjoy the longman approach, but for those who just want to get to the suggestion, feel free to skip to the rework section! I will add any important comments in italics.
The Current Gameplay Concept
To my mind, Freddy's power in concept is along a similar vein to the Pig and Sadako. He's a stealthy m1 killer going for downs and hooks, who relies on the threat of pulling survivors into the dream world to slow survivors down.
The looming threat of the dream world should encourage survivors to miss skillchecks at the expense of giving Nightmare slow down and information to wake up fast, leave gens to take time to wake each other up, or spend time reaching the alarm clock for all the benefits. Freddy meanwhile tries to apply pressure amidst this slowdown with downs and hooks... Like Sadako he has a gen teleport to help with map traversal to keep up the pressure.
While survivors are awake, Nightmare has a limited stealth ability. Survivors hear his terror radius, but see him intermittently between 16-32m and see him normally at 16m. Due to the need to pressure survivors while they are awake as well as asleep, Freddy can hit awake survivors normally. Successful hits/time pulls survivors into the dream world...
The dream world is meant to be where Freddy shines, once pulled in, Survivors now can be affected by dream powers, which improve Freddy's chase and helps him score downs more quickly compared to his awake gameplay. Survivors need to get out of the dreamworld to limit this power and be relatively safe again, balancing completing gens with keep themselves awake.
Current Gameplay Issues
Freddy's biggest issue is similar to old Sadako, his dream world doesn't pose enough of a threat for survivors to actually care to interact with his slowdown. Just like players ignored Sadako tapes, survivors generally ignore being asleep, as Freddy still has to hit them for it to have any value.
The concept is at base Freddy is not very strong, being a basic m1 killer with very limited chase power... but once in the dream world, Freddy should be way stronger, getting abilities to help him down survivors easily... sounds good.... however the reality is, once there, survivors only penalty is that they hear his lullaby instead of his terror radius, but you can see him normally. This isn't much of a upgrade... but now we have his big game changing strength, which is.... he actually gets to use his dream snares or dream pallets... 🤨
Needless to say, this is why he is bad, neither of these things is especially strong. In the dream world, he is still at his core an m1 killer who is now about as effective as Doctor in chase. Having to wait/play around to be about as good as Doctor is not really much of a boost to say this is where his threat of the dream world is supposed to come in.
This current iteration loses a big portion of what makes Freddy Freddy. He can attack survivors while awake, but when asleep, he isn't really that much stronger... it doesn't fit the idea of a "dream demon" or a "nightmare" at all.
Freddy Kruegar Rework Goals
When it comes to what I would want out of Freddy, I want to emulate the films surprise dream transition, where survivors don't know whether they are asleep or not until it's too late. I also would want an idea of Freddy's boiler room, that makes Freddy much more dangerous if players continue to ignore him and his dream world. Goals in detail:
- Have a more lore accurate distinction between being asleep and awake. Make being awake rather safe, but make the threat of the dream world strong. Actively encourage survivors to take time out of the busy gen repairing schedules to deal with being asleep before Freddy even shows up.
- Capture the uncertainty of being awake/asleep from the movies. Survivors shouldn't know they're in the dream world, until Freddy tips his hand.
- Capture an essence of Freddy's boiler room as an even bigger threat to Survivors in the dream world.
Reworking Freddy Kruegar
Movement Speed: 115 % | 4.6 m/s
Alt Movement speed: 100 % | 4 m/s (placing Dream Traps)
Terror Radius: 24 metres
Lullaby Radius: 32 metres
DREAM DEMON:
The Nightmare can see the current Sleep state of the survivors on their HUD at all times. Survivors can be in 1 of 5 states. Alert, Awake, Asleep, Dream World, Deep Dream World.
The Nightmare always stays in the Dream World, however while in chase with a Survivor who has fallen into the Deep Dream World, The Nightmare will enter the Deep Dream World with them.
Alert/Awake/Asleep:
Dream Demon cloaks The Nightmare from Alert/ Awake/Asleep Survivors. In these states, Survivors suffer from the Oblivious status effect. Survivors within 32 metres only hear The Nightmare's non-directional Lullaby.
Survivors can only see him fully when using a basic or lunge attack, and otherwise only intermittently from 0 to 32 metres.
The Nightmare is invisible to Survivors when he is farther than 32 metres away.
Alert survivors are immune to building up Micro-Sleep, and cannot be wounded by attacks from The Nightmare; instead they are pulled into the Dream World. Attacks made in this way are considered special attacks and incur the normal attack cooldown on The Nightmare.
Awake survivors will build up Micro-Sleep passively over time. Awake Survivors cannot be wounded by attacks from The Nightmare; instead Survivors are immediately pulled into the Dream World state. Attacks made in this way are considered Special Attacks and incur the normal attack cooldown on The Nightmare.
Asleep survivors can be wounded by attacks from The Nightmare and are immediately pulled into the Dream World state. Attacks made in this way are considered Basic Attacks for the purpose of game interactions.
Micro-Sleep:
The Nightmare's presence in the Trial Grounds induces Micro-Sleep, passively causing Awake Survivors to fall asleep over 45 seconds. Conspicuous actions accelerate this countdown by an additional 50% (30 seconds potentially).
Asleep survivors are not made aware their Micro-Sleep timer is depleted until: -
- They are hit by basic attack from the Nightmare. This will wound the survivor and they are immediately pulled into the Dream World.
- They create a loud noise notification within range of The Nightmare (including globals) and are immediately pulled into the Dream World. (https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Loud_Noise_Notifications).
- They perform a rushed action in chase.
- They attempt to wake up another survivor from a lower level dream state and are immediately pulled into the Dream World.
- The Nightmare teleports to a Generator and the survivor is within 24 metres of a survivor, the survivor is immediately pulled into the Dream World.
Dream World survivors will also passively build up Micro-Sleep, causing Survivors to immediately fall into the Deep Dream World after 45 seconds. Conspicuous actions accelerate this countdown by an additional 50% (30 seconds potentially).
Survivors can not see the Micro-Sleep progress for themselves or allies on their HUD.
The Nightmare can see the Micro-Sleep progress of survivors within 24 metres on their HUD, and retains the ability to do so for 10s after the Survivor has left this range.
Dream World:
Once inside the Dream World, Survivors are affected by the following effects: -
- The map gains an ashen dream effect that darkens the world.
- No longer suffer from the Oblivious status effect, and The Nightmare is no longer cloaked.
- Survivors can be wounded by basic attacks from The Nightmare.
- Survivors can see and be affected by Dream Traps placed by The Nightmare.
- Survivors gain a new unexposed 45 second timer to enter the Deep Dream World.
Deep Dream World:
Once inside the Deep Dream World, Survivors are affected by the following effects: -
- The ashen dream effect turns red and occasional loud steam vents appear in the world nearby to indicate being in the Deep Dream state.
- They can hear The Nightmare's non-directional Lullaby globally.
- They suffer the Exposed status effect.
- They suffer the Blinded status effect. (Alarm Clocks aura is not affected).
Waking Up:
Survivors wake up and leave the Dream World or the Deep Dream World when:
- An Alert/Awake Survivor performs the Wake Up action on them.
- They find and use their personal Alarm Clock.
- They are unhooked from a hook.
Survivors in the Dream World can use the Wake Up action on survivors in the Deep Dream World. This resets the Deep Dream World timers to 0. This is a flavour of the dream warriors concept, where survivors work together to save each other in their dreams.
Whenever performing a Wake Up action, both Survivors current sleep timers are paused.
When using the Alarm Clock or being unhooked, the Survivor will become Alert, and give Survivors immunity from micro-sleep for 30 seconds.
Dream Traps:
The Nightmare has dream traps he can place within the trial, that are invisible to Alert and Awake Survivors. The Nightmare can 8 Dream Trap activee at any one time, new traps placed replace the oldest trap. Dream Traps consist of both Dream Snares and Dream Pallets, with both available at basekit.
SPECIAL ABILITY: Dream Snare
- Press and hold the Power button to place a Dream Snare on the ground directly in front of The Nightmare.
- Awake survivors lose 10 seconds of progress towards being asleep.
- Asleep survivors that come in contact with a Dream Snare suffer from the Hindered Status Effect, slowing them for as long as they remain within its Area of Effect and for a short duration after leaving it.
SPECIAL ABILITY: Dream Pallet
- Press and hold the Power button to place a Dream Pallet at an available location.
- A Dream Pallet dropped by a Survivor will be destroyed immediately and not stun The Nightmare.
Nightmare Projection:
- Press and hold the Active Ability button to perform a Dream Projection and teleport to a Generator in view. Releasing the button early will cancel the action.
Removed the Teleport CD reduction for asleep survivors, as I feel other entries to his kit are potent enough.
Add Ons
Mostly Unchanged, just updated for new terms. Other changes in his kit make a lot of these situationally better by default, with the only notable exception that blindness is now basekit in tbe Deep Dream World.
Wool Shirt - Asleep survivors and survivors inside the Dream World suffer from the following effects: Increases the Regression penalty of failed Repairing and Healing Skill Checks by +4 %.
Sheep Block - Survivors interacting with a Dream Trap suffer from the Oblivious Status Effect for 30 seconds.
Kid's Drawing - Unchanged
Garden Rake - Grants an additional 2 Dream Traps to the Nightmares trap limit.
Prototype Claws - Grants an additional 2 Dream Trap to the Nightmares trap limit. The Auras of Survivors interacting with Dream Traps are revealed for 4 seconds.
Outdoor Rope - Asleep survivors and survivors inside the Dream World suffer from the following effects: Increases the audible range of Generator-Repair noises by +8 metres.
Nancy's Sketch - Unchanged
Green Dress - Asleep survivors and survivors inside the Dream World suffer from the following effects: Increases the regression penalty of failed repair and Healing Skill Checks at +4 %. The Auras of Survivors failing these Skill Checks are revealed for 3 seconds.
Cat Block - Unchanged
Unicorn Block - Survivors interacting with a Dream Trap suffer from the Oblivious Status Effect for 45 seconds.
Paint Thinner - Grants an additional 2 Dream Trap Tokens. The Auras of Survivors interacting with Dream Traps are revealed for 6 seconds.
Nancy's Masterpiece - Unchanged
Jump Rope - Increases the volume of Survivors' Grunts of Pain by +50 %, if they are Asleep or in the Dream World.
Blue Dress - Asleep survivors and survivors inside the Dream World suffer from the following effects: Increases the Regression penalty of failed Repairing and Healing Skill Checks by +4 %. The Auras of Survivors failing these Skill Checks are revealed for 4 seconds.
Pill Bottle - Reduces the distance range at which Alert/Awake/Asleep Survivors see The Nightmare intermittently to 0 to 24 metres. The Nightmare is invisible to awake survivors beyond 24 metres.
Swing Chains - Asleep survivors and survivors inside the Dream World suffer from the following effects: The Footstep noises of Survivors are 50 % louder.
Class Photo - Unchanged
"Z" Block - Unchanged
Red Paint Brush - Causes all survivors to start the trial inside the Dream World.
Black Box : Asleep survivors and survivors inside the Dream World suffer from the following effects: Recently opened Exit Gates are blocked for 15 seconds.
Final Thoughts
I really want to capture the confusion Freddy has with regards to when survivors are in and not in the dream state, and I want the dream state itself to be far more intimidating. I hope this suggestion achieves the goal, and wouldn't require too massive a rework to implement... most funcitonality is already in the game, just repurposed for greater effect.
I don't think the damage immunity while awake makes him unviable here, as survivors will transition quicker to the dream world doing objectives, and he can wound survivors as normal while retaining his stealth while they are not in the dream world. If he needs to force someone into the dream world, and doing do starts building for the deep dream world.
Skill checks being changed to only tell you which state of dream progression you're in, and not waking you up is a significant time loss for the Survivors. The Dream World remains largely the same, outside of Freddy now having access to both Dream Pallets AND Dream Snares at base... but we now have the looming threat of the Deep Dream World, where Freddy becomes very potent.
This hopefully encourages Survivors to spend time waking themselves or each other up to avoid the more punishing aspects of the Deep Dream World.
As I say, I'm not an elite DBD player, so wouldn't claim to know if this would be too strong, or even not be good enough to make him viable.... there is natural anti -tunnel in his kit here, so perhaps making certain numbers stronger is in order.
The numbers are my gut feel, based on my experience with other slowdown style killers.
- Could this concept work?
- Is it inherently flawed and doesn't fit DBD?
- What would you add/change?
Comments
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Lo siento pero Freddy no va a recibir nada, no lo ha hecho en esto 3 años menos lo va a hacer ahora
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Didn't BHVR say they were looking at Freddy? I can't remember where, but I'm sure they mentioned it in passing in a Dev stream or something?
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Dijeron que estaba en su radar de cambios, pero vamos dijeron lo mismo con mellizos y ahí se han quedado
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507775
This is my thread from a few weeks ago, I wanted to do it as Freddy Krueger really is and what he represents, he must be like that, and the closest thing we have had is the old Freddy, here I present some ideas that may fit.
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The one thing that is confusing me there is that Freddy hitting them wakes them up and he has to bring them back into the Dream World. The thing with Freddy is, the longer you are in the Dream World, the more dangerous he gets. I can't really see why anyone would volunteer to enter the dream world, because you'd be better off as survivor just doing gens, let that person try and loop/evade Nightmare as much as possible, then grab them off hook as per usual.
Your rework suggests a kind of Wraith type ability, where instead of decloaking, Nightmares "decloak" is pulling survivors into his dream world, and his movement speed is replaced by an ability to teleport to asleep survivors. I'm not sure if it is unique or strong enough to make him viable.
I saw Freddy in this game as not so much a hit a runner, but a looming threat of the dream world that builds up in strength if you continue to ignore his power, like Pig and Sadako. The NoES films were always a battle of time... try and find a way to beat Freddy before you fall asleep and are left at his mercy, keeping a constant battle going of trying to stay awake... and I feel thats how he should feel in this game... Survivors should be trying to stay awake at all times.
The invisibility while survivors are awake is pretty akin to my thought processes though, it doesn't make sense ot me that he can injure survivors while awake, as that just isn't Freddy. That's why I wanted more of a "you are actually asleep, but you don't know it" ability.
The animation to pull them in to the dream world is something I did think about, but considering he flexes his knives after hitting a survivors, and the intermittent visibility with his lullaby captures the idea of him stalking you, I proposed being able to see him normally when he makes an attack from his intermittent visibilty state. The attack recovery animation is already close enough to the flavour I was aiming for.
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they did. the 3 killer they talked about were hillbilly, freddy and... uh twins? i think it was in his q&a. i think big problem with current freddy is that he does not feel like freddy and being in dream world is not punishing. that is kinda of his two main issues. freddy not feeling like freddy makes him feel unbelievably boring to play. His dream has no global threat. his mobility not good. it is very limited for a character that should be like teleport nurse that can go anywhere he pleases. his snares and pallet are underwhelming for a chase ability. his stealth is awful.
with how he current is, I don't think there would be many people upset of complete rework of his ability since barely anyone plays him.
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Freddy's add-ons really suck, like SUPER suck. So hopefully his rework comes soon because he's too cool to be weak
I made a rework post too some time ago if u wanna see how I'd like to see Freddy buffed/reworked.
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After talking to people for some time and getting some different perspectives and ideas, I've come to the opinion my suggestion here was pretty much just overloading the existing power to artificially make Freddy stronger... so I wouldn't push this anymore...
I think some elements of this have potential, I'm tempted to steal some of my thought processes here for an improved rework suggestion...
However I will certainly check your post out! 😁
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