Thanks for the vaults
Great, you can get hit again even after fully vaulting a window.
Instead of fixing the bug that males had, now survivors get no distance from the windows and you get hit even tho you already finished the vault.
Back to dodgy hits every session.
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The funniest thing is that the male survivors still vault farther, Otz made a demonstration video on Twitter, so they didn't even fix the issue people were complaining about.
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I was hoping it was temporary until they fixed the issue with male survivors but that bug is still there, so we get the worst of both worlds lmao
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You can't make this ######### up. One step forward, two steps back.
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"Pretty good job so far"
😕
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can someone bring me up to speed please. im confused whats happening to vaults ?
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They changed fast vaults so that survivors would get more distance. However, this also caused a number of seperate issues like survivors getting i-frames during the animation, vaults also being faster (more distance in the same amount of time) and for some reason male survivors would get more distance than female survivors.
Now they reverted these changes (presumable to fix these issues and then imlement it again) but male survivors still vault further than female survivors.
On the topic: It feels good being able to hit survivors at vaults again. I cannot press this enough but if you get hit after the animation, then that is a latency issue. You can stand still after a fast vault and the killer should not be able to hit you.
Post edited by Xernoton on4 -
so you say we need a ping limit below the current 2000ms?
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Literally..
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If that was the case then you'd never see a killer hitting the vault instead of the survivor before they move out of the way. Which was a common occurence even before the vault changes.
I couldn't care less what you think of me but it seems I made an impression. Maybe consider both sides of an argument before you jump the gun. It's likely they will bring back the further distances at a later point and as long as they fix the issues they initially caused I'm fine with that. I'm just not content with survivors getting i-frames during vaults and the animations not working correctly.
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2 things.
one, vaults weren’t ever faster in animation. you just went against somebody running resilience which increases the speed of vaulting by 9%.
two, it feels good to hit survivors at windows now BECAUSE they get absolutely zero distance now. the bugs weren’t even addressed for male survivors so there was literally no point in removing the new vaults because make survivors still vault farther and all the change did was make playing female survivors absolutely miserable. many times it is a ping issue, but if both the killer and me are at a great ping (around 30-40, killer had the same) and i can STILL get hit at the vault for fast vaulting, then that’s not a ping issue, it is quite simply a game issue.
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Do you not know how valocity works? For fast vaults the survivor moves in uniform movement. Meaning: v = s / t. Or in words: velocity equals distance divided by time.
The changed fast vaults gave you more distance, while the time stayed the same as before. So that means, that the velocity was actually increased in turn. This has nothing to do with Resilience. Even the animtions weren't working properly for crying out loud.
The fact that the bugs are still there is more than unfortunate, agreed. I don't even understand how they managed to mess that up, when it came with the changed vaults. But I will never be fine with survivors getting completely unhittable during fast vaults. Vaults are not solid walls. As long as you are still on the same side or even slightly behind the window, the killer should be able to hit you. Of course that should not happen after the fast vault but as I said that is a latency thing. It's the same as Wesker grabbing you behind a vault and slamming you into it. It has nothing to do with the hitbox or distance, just latency. And that can't be fixed quite so easy.
Something else that proves my point is the posts on this forum. Before vaults got changed, you'd never see anyone mention that they didn't get enough distance after a fast vault. Because that wasn't actually the issue. You had people complaining about latency when they got hit behind windows but not about the distance.
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The new vaults are pretty sad, but last patch's vaults were extremely obnoxious and should stay gone. They need to find a middleground.
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Don't you know that killers deserve free hits and 4k because the game is survivor sided?
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Was far more than the male issue. Survivors were given invulnerability frames when vaulting.
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I really don't think survivors had any sort of i-frames during the vault (projectile attacks registered perfectly fine), it's just that as Xernoton has pointed out, the vault speed had been inadvertently increased due to the fact that they increased the distance made during the interaction without altering the interaction time.
I do think the new vaults (especially on male characters, who vaulted further and therefore also faster) had been a bit ridiculous, but that they went and just reverted to the old state is disappointing. As people have been saying, there could be a middle ground, such as adjusting the interaction time to have the survivor reach the new distance at a more reasonable speed. What's of note here I think is that the first half or so of the vaulting animation seemingly is faster than the latter part of it. If they were to make the survivor travel at a more even pace throughout the vault, an increase in vaulting speed likely wouldn't even be as ridiculous, as the survivor wouldn't just be sucked through the window.
Ultimately this all comes down to hit registration though, and I think even the old vaults would be perfectly fine and fair in a 0-latency environment. The fact however that any and all latency present in either client's connection to the server favours the killer on hits outright makes vaults a little too susceptible to laghits. Medium vaults especially. The "true" solution would be to have server-sided hit registration that calculates hits from its neutral perspective and doesn't favour the killer.
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After multiple years of vaults being so bad that you could land, take 2 steps and still get hit, I think the killer side could have dealt with the vaults favoring survivors for more than a few weeks.
It's not something that is an easy fix obviously or it would have been addressed.
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If you take 2 steps after a vault and still get hit that's a ping issue, that'll happen no matter how good the vaults are.
Unfortunately, killers with bad ping often get rewarded. But that's a separate issue.
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They literally had i-frames. We've already gone over this here on this forum and on the reddit, among multiple videos. It was definitely broken.
Here's two links for at least a couple of examples
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/15i2lfk/loving_the_new_vaults/
and another
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No doubt I'm looking at this in favor of killers. After all, killers were the ones that suddenly received a nerf to a fundamental game mechanic. After 7 years.
But really, are you just going to ignore that I completely dismanteled your whole argument? It's not helping you either and it shows that your bias is worse than mine.
Survivors didn't have nice fast vaults. They had broken fast vaults. There were many videos proving that these were in fact broken and not working as intended. How often do I need to repeat myself here? Survivors got literal i-frames! This is not fine. The animation was obviously not working as intended either. The survivor character model skipped the last couple of frames during a fast for crying out loud. Worst of all, survivors would still get hit from miles away, if the killer's ping was bad enough. So this was basically punishing killers to play with good connection.
There was never any statement by BHVR that they removed it because of complaints. As I said it is more likely they removed it for now to fix the issues they caused and will reintroduce them at a later point. Which is fine by me, as long as they fix ALL the issues. No more immunity to projectiles, no more faster vaults (this was faster than the days of Spine Chill + Resilience), no more different vaults for male and female survivors and especially no more wonky animations. If they do all that, then I'm 100% fine with it. But you don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
I don't see how fast vaults are now any worse than before the buff. The only thing they intended to do was revert the initial change. Unfortunately the bug with different vault distances is still there but fast vaults weren't effectively nerfed. And you call me out on my bias? A bit hypocritical, don't you think?
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"You can stand still after a fast vault and the killer should not be able to hit you."
Should, yes. But female survivors now vault so close to the damn window that they can get hit with the killer not even pressed against the other side of it.
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Wow. I didn't notice. That's definitely not right and hopefully gets fixed as soon as possible. I'm in awe at how something like this can even happen.
To make it clear, this was not what I was referring to. But before they messed with vaults you wouldn't hit a survivor after their fast vault (latency aside).
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The problem with 'getting hit so late being a latency issue', is you can't tell a laggy/VPN region swapping/region mismatched killer in the lobby. You load into a match, and you never know if they are using a VPN for lagvantage until it is too late. If there was a ping indicator in the pre-game lobby I wouldn't have a problem with this. As is though, it sucks to have Killers intentionally cheating the system, or getting put on the wrong server and not knowing/being made aware.
Even then, the current ping indicators aren't good enough. I saw a Mikaela in my lobby with red ping (and not on the other 2 Survs), then when I loaded into the match my ping was even worse than her ping, and I had no indication of my own lag in the lobby. It clearly put us in the wrong server, but there was nothing I could (legally) do to fix the game's problem because it refused to keep me informed while I could do something about it.
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I won't argue against any of that but that is completely seperate issue. This is something that I hope the devs will improve (as much as possible) but it has little to do with the change to fast vaults.
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New fast vaults are now medium at best.
How in the spaghetti gods could they not just make it much worse than it was before, but also kept the male and female vault difference? I cant believe this
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should this be a hit?
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What does "gone over this" entail? If there had been conclusive experiments conducted that prove that the new vaults had i-frames, please show me. I think it was more so a case of the vacuum-level speeds at which survivors got sucked through the window having messed with the hit registration system, particularly the aim dressing mechanic. Demo's shred hit mechanics are famously wonky, even crouching can regularly make it fail to register the survivor's hitbox. Deathslinger has a very small hitzone, and the player in the clip flicks right a bit at the point of shooting. The harpoon also interacts wonkily with latency, and the survivor here had an Asian nickname. I don't doubt that something about the hitbox could have changed with those vaults, and obviously both of these hits should have connected (if we ignore network issues that may have played a part), but from my experience of playing as and against Huntress, it was still possible to register on the survivor at every point of the vault. If this weren't the case, we would have seen tons of hatchets flying through survivors on vaults. But I haven't seen a single one, personally.
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The thing is I find it absolutely surreal that they can't implement a decent hit validation system for vaults like they did with pallets (that somehow stopped working anyway)
How can they be so utterly bad
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Jeez he even had time to make a mistake (start to go in the other direction), recover, *and* get the hit lol
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On his screen, probably. On your screen, probably not.
The issue is that DBDs netcode favors killers, and crumbles when ping goes above 100ish. And it does so a LOT, when they don't dare keep players in queue for more than 30s.
DBDs netcode is just bad and outdated. Compare is to Street Fighter 6, where even 120+ ping matches feel playable and responsive.
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The thing is that the "validation system" for pallet stuns was fairly easy to implement - rather than the server having to do any advanced hit calculations, it can simply look at whether the pallet stun happened prior to the killer's reported hit event, and overrule the latter if so. Or even more simply, it could just ignore any (basic) hit events happening for Xms after a pallet stun. It hasn't stopped working altogether by the way, but they did seemingly "nerf" it, as even on good survivor ping hits through pallet pulls have become more common again. What I think may have been changed is that while it used to be handled on a first-come-first-serve basis (if the server registers the pallet stun even just one tick prior to receiving the hit event, the latter is void), now the server will actually look at client timestamps and compare when things happened on the respective clients, which can still benefit a laggier killer because the survivor obviously pulls pallets in reaction to them. Or maybe they've added a buffer where if the hit event arrives within the first 50ms or so of a stun event, it's still valid. Who knows.
Anyway, implementing hit validation for window vaults is not nearly as easy because there is no simple binary logic there (if killer = stunned, hit = invalid). It would require the server to do actual general hit calculations based on the character locations and speeds and such, something BHVR seemingly refuses to have the servers do, for one reason or another. The only times where the server will employ some sort of such a general hit validation is if the killer player has a ridiculously high ping of 300+ms, and even then it won't do so very reliably.
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Regarding your second paragraphs, yeah I know. It's a similar reason to why you can get hit after the pallet drop animation is over if the killer is laggy enough to not register the dropping of the pallet in time, and he's too far away to get stunned (hence triggering the server check)
Clip for reference, I can't find my personal one where it happened the same thing (vs a blight).
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you know people can post the reverse too right?
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yes please! that would be great! killer and survivor bring together all the knowledge to proof how messy the hits are on both sides.
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the point is... everyone knows latency is a #########. so why are you posting it?
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nothing changes if you don't give things a voice
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I’d love to see one of these clips of killers being denied a clip they deserve.
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"im upset im not invincible halfway through a vault anymore"
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Scoops ahoy Steve offers you an ice cream in these trying times
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I'm sorry, but you gotta bring better fake hits than that. That was basic latency, and should normally be a hit. I'm worried about being halfway to the ground from the 2nd story and getting up somehow. Heck, Otz and other content creators have better(more extreme Bullschenanigans) lag hits in their weekly compilations.
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great, post them!
I deliberately chose a borderline example to stimulate a discussion. Also, I don't care what it looks like on the killer's screen as long as it looks wrong on my screen.
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you think they don't exist?
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Going over entails a ton of forum discussions on both reddit and here about the issue with videos and such. It's like coming here and saying tunneling doesn't exist. We are all here going to stare at you and be like, this has been talked about to death. We aren't going to waste time trying to prove something that's already been discussed to death. They gave survivors iframes. We are already passed that discussion. They apparently didn't INTEND to give them iframes, but they did, and it was rolled back. It was also of course doing the weird male vs female distance differences. That wasn't "wonky" doggo or slinger hitbox issue. Ever since that patch, we were flooded with iframe videos. I just posted a couple for reference. It made being killer incredibly bad, so it was rolled back.
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I feel like blaming wonky animation for this, because he hit you at the first moment he swung the mace, I really wish we had killer's PoV.
Huntress Hatchess are less to screw because their hitbox are big and they remain more during the animation of the vault, this is just a theory I have, because I missed shreds, slinger shots, but never punishments, whips or hatchets, and my guess is because their hitbox is more constant compared to a shot that is almost immadiate and a shred that is not as fast as a slinger shot but once demo hits a wall the whole hitbox stops, and all my hits were against people with ~40ms
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That's a good point. The blood splash is a little late.
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Right, again, I don't doubt that the hitbox of the survivor may have gotten a bit whacky with the changed vaults and that it interacted in weird ways with some abilities and aim dressing, but I don't believe there had been i-frames. It's a moot point now anyway because they have reverted those changes, but still, it would have been ridiculous for BHVR to introduce invincibility to an essential chase interaction, so I would like to clarify that they didn't.
Exactly, people in these instances tend to complain about pallet stun validation not working... but the killer hadn't even been stunned. It is funny (sad) that the counter to stun validation is to have even worse ping, such that you hit the survivor long before you are close to the pallet that they on their screen are already pulling. Latency cheaters rejoice.
Moving hit registration authority to the server wouldn't be without issues - latency always causes issues in networked multiplayer games, that's just reality -, but it would make it so that both roles suffer from these issues equally, rather than only one role benefitting and the other exclusively suffering as it is currently. It would also make everyone's own latency be to their own detriment, rather than rewarding one role for it, thereby also removing the cheat and exploit potential that comes with artificially inducing latency.
That said, one suspicion I have as to why BHVR is not willing to have servers do hit calculations is that it costs computation cycles and power, which they may well not have to spare and would have to pay more for.
Apologies, I missed your reply initially. Well, it's fair enough if you personally can't be bothered to prove the claim, and I'm not saying I know for a fact there hadn't been i-frames, I just hadn't seen anything to confirm without a doubt the existence of i-frames, and again, hatchets hits still registering at any point of a vault to me had if anything been proof of the opposite. But I don't care so much ultimately, it was rolled back and that it should have been regardless.
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