After 2 years not playing the game...

xEa
xEa Member Posts: 3,288
edited September 16 in Feedback and Suggestions

Since everybody including many former DBD content creaters are now playing TCM, an old game i played for thousends of hours a few years ago came back to my mind:

The (often not so) good old DbD.

2 years is a long time to fix things, so i thought i give it another chance. After 3 days of trying it out, my conclusion is pretty straight forward.


First the good:

-- Bloodweb is now more confortable and you earn more bloodpoints.

-- Nurse and Spirit seems to be tuned down a little bit, especially the addons. Still 4King with them every single game tho, besides beeing extremly rusty.

-- Some perks like Hex: Ruin oder Deadhard are now more fair.


Now to the bad:

-- The new maps look all aweful. Maybe its just personal taste tho. Those strange colors are a big turn off for me.

-- Way to much fog. I know, Horror game and so, but i personally and probably most others wont get scared by that game anyway, besides beeing in an intense chase.

-- Most maps got reworked and are now absurdly killer sided. Even less pallets then before (i counted 6-8 in custom games, more 50/50 then before, lack of playable loops, more deadzones. Strange choice.

-- Instead of reworking the extremly boring main object, they added another 10 Sekunds to it. Really? Thats the best these developers came up in 2 years?

-- Beside massiv survivor nerfs (less distance after hit, maps favour clearly killer, longer healing time, longer gen repair time) killer became by design even more oppresive. This might be a bit early to judge, but some new killers like the alien can do everything at once. Teleport, ignoring pallets/windows, beeing stealthy and still 115%? Seriously who came up with that?

-- Something is wrong with fast vaults. Is this a bug or intentional?


Overall, it feels like the devs are aiming for a 70% killrate for whatever reason. Stats show that 60% rate is already reality and those were apparently before some majore survivor nerfs. Why?

I will abandon survivor for a bit and see how killer is going but so far i feel i will also jump on TCM hype train and see how this plays.


Thanks for reading.

Post edited by EQWashu on

Comments

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 856

    -- Way to much fog. I know, Horror game and so, but i personally and probably most others wont get scared by that game anyway, besides beeing in an intense chase.

    I don't know what you mean by this. Maps seem pretty clear unless offerings are brought.

    -- Something is wrong with fast vaults. Is this a bug or intentional?

    They "fixed" fast vaults to make the animations more in line with what was supposed to be happening and for a short while fast vaults actually felt fast (maybe about a month ago). However, that created a bug were male characters vaults were getting superior distance. Thus they reverted the fix so they could try and fix the new issue, but that created even more of a break were now fast vaults aren't working.

    That's my understanding, bug.

    Overall, it feels like the devs are aiming for a 70% killrate for whatever reason. Stats show that 60% rate is already reality and those were apparently before some majore survivor nerfs. Why?

    The goal is supposed to be a 60% kill rate, though for many survivors it feels like a 40% escape rate is a great day. Their logic, which in my opinion is pretty solid on this, is to achieve a 50/50 split, the data needs to actually be 60% for killers, because with four survivors there is a much greater chance of one of them throwing the match (example: afk) then there are matches thrown by the killer.

    I will abandon survivor for a bit and see how killer is going but so far i feel i will also jump on TCM hype train and see how this plays.

    I haven't played TCM, doesn't seem for me, and have no idea on the game's merits, but right now the steam player counts have TCM just short of 6,000 players, while DbD is a little under 42,000; though maybe gamepass is really helping out TCM.

    This might be a bit early to judge, but some new killers like the alien can do everything at once. Teleport, ignoring pallets/windows, beeing stealthy and still 115%? Seriously who came up with that?

    I don't think a meta has developed yet on how to play against alien. Some survs think the turrets are a waste of time, others that keeping alien knocked out of his power makes him incredibly weak.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 3,288

    I am not talking about recent updates, i am talking about the difference between now and 2 years ago. My statement is absolutly correct, check out some older videos and compare them with now if you like. I was shocked by how extreme the difference is, not even subtile. If i had to guess they were cutting the pallet count per map by a minmum of 2, rather 3. And like i said, those pallets we have now are much unsafer then they used to be. And jungle gyms are extremly rare, instead you get terrible tiles like this "new" 2 Window thing or tons of 4 wall tiles. I had maybe 2 or 3 long wall gyms in 3 days of playing.

    Absolutly agree on that. I think they did a decent job with the McMillian changes or maybe Corn maps tho. Others like Toba Landing, Nostromo or Shattered square look subjectivly speaking of course really bad. It is the first time in the games history that i feel this way.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 3,288

    Thanks for this great reply!

    About the fast vaults. I hope i understand you correctly, since i dont know any of the issue the game had recently. It seems to me that fastvaulting does not give you that much of a distance then it used to be back in 2020/21. The animation looks shorter, not really like a fast vault, more like a medium. This is a bug, correct? If so, that is something they really should fix asap, it is very game changing.

    About 60% killrate. That makes some sense, i agree with you. But on the other side, how should devs know this accuratly who benefits more? For example, the killer is the only role who can determine, how the game goes. So if he stays afk, its 4 escapes. If he decides to farm, it is a 4 escape. On top of that, he can give hatch for free or let the last 1 or 2 players escape through the gate, which happens commonly. I can remember a survey where almost 20% of the killers always let the last survivor escape. I am one of them. The devs cant possible know if it not actually the way around and free hatches, farming ect actually lowers the "real" killrate more then afk or throwing survivors are.

    Yes i saw that it is only like 7 or 8.000 playing this game. Interestingly enough, many of the DBD content creators i follow changed since weeks to that game and are all praising it (as far as i have seen). Same goes for those who are in my friendslist (many DBD players), i see them all only in TCM anymore.

    About the Alien. Well like i said, it might be to early to fully make a statement on that killer, those were only my first thoughts. I also have the same early feelings for other "new" killers aswell. Like the Raven Birdy Lady, who can just close loops and can crossmap even better then huntress (while still be 115%, ######### is that?) or The Mastermind. Somehow he is able to do so many things at once. A passive slowdown with the exposed timer, beeing able to vault pallets and a very insane gapecloser and extremly strong chase power.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 856

    For example, the killer is the only role who can determine, how the game goes. So if he stays afk, its 4 escapes. If he decides to farm, it is a 4 escape.

    The thing is if one survivor AFKs, sacrifices, etc. the chance of a 4k goes way up. So if every player in the game (survivor and the killer) has an equal chance of AFKing, that's actually four times as many games resulting in a 4e then a 4k.

    I also think survivors have a much higher likelihood of rage quitting then killers do before the game is actually decided, but that's just my perception on the issue.

    On top of that, he can give hatch for free or let the last 1 or 2 players escape through the gate, which happens commonly.

    I generally let survivors go as well, but I'll say I notice this much less frequently in survivor games lately. Might be an MMR thing.

    I hope i understand you correctly, since i dont know any of the issue the game had recently. It seems to me that fastvaulting does not give you that much of a distance then it used to be back in 2020/21

    I only started a year ago, but here's my understanding.

    Fast vaults are supposed to be quicker (naturally) but also push the survivor farther away from the window. They 'fixed' this in August (Otz video / comparison video here about twenty seconds in), but male survivor were vaulting farther (video). So they reverted the fix, with many feeling that fast and medium vaults were now equal, though still kept the bug about male survivors jumping farther (another Otz video).

    Hopefully they fix it soon.

  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 247

    TCM game administrators have announced that on average only one survivor will be able to escape.

    So, if you think TCM is fun, DBD should be easier, easier to escape from, and give you the aftertaste of victory.

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 3,455

    That makes sense, since you have 3 killers hunting survivors instead of just 1.

  • OneAutmLeaf
    OneAutmLeaf Member Posts: 102

    - Most maps got reworked and are now absurdly killer sided. Even less pallets then before (i counted 6-8 in custom games, more 50/50 then before, lack of playable loops, more deadzones. Strange choice.


    Bro what game are you playing? every map has around 20 pallets..... like what? you clearly didnt count right bc no map has less then 10 pallets dude....

  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,217

    You would be surprised. Take thomson house - that one can easily have less then 10 pallets (depending on RNG). And that's just 1st example that came to my mind. Also remaked farm maps have some pallets (filler loop) that just increases number of pallets and that's it - because the loop is so unsafe, that killer will always get a hit on it (no matter what killer)

  • OneAutmLeaf
    OneAutmLeaf Member Posts: 102
    edited September 27

    I really wouldnt, Ive played every map and have never in my 6 years of playing this game ever seen a map with less then 10 pallets.

  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,217

    Ok. Go to custom game, take zanshin tactics and go count pallets. If it spawns more then 10, then repeat it. By 3rd time you are "guaranteed" to see less then 10 pallets. And again, there are more maps like this

  • OneAutmLeaf
    OneAutmLeaf Member Posts: 102

    so 1 map....out of how many again? 1 map vs the other like 14, hardly seems like a arguement to maps not having enough pallets that op was talking about..

  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,217
    edited September 27

    It was an example. This is absolutely not the only map. But sure. You made me look it up, so here goes:

    I suppose shelter woods is obsolete as this table is most likely just before the rework. Also as you can see this list is pretty much incomplete - I would wonder about pallet count for new cowshed for example. Grim pantry and Rotten fields are also good candidates (the minimum will be somewhere around 10 - I am not saying it's definitely below, but I am sure minimum is 100% below 15 for both of them and possibly yes below 10)

    One final note - you have been playing the game for 6 years and still didn't find these spawns? Especially on old shelter woods? How? That had less then 10 pallets very very very frequently (like 6 was extreme, but 7-9 was quite common).

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 3,288

    Hey AutmLeaf

    Your 20 pallets example is a bit extreme, and it really might (or might not) only apply to a single realm, which is The Game. I admit that having like 8 or even less pallets is also an extreme example, but it happens relative often. I had it on multible occasions during my research.

    Talking about reseach:

    I was a bit skeptical about that data, since my senses usually wont betray me by estimating or guessing in something i regulary do. Those numbers seem to be way to high to be true, so i did my own testing again, over a course of 140 tries across multible maps. All my data i collected is double and even tripple checked and completly honest.

    First i started with "very pallet intense" maps acording to the link you posted. Here are my result:

    • Eyrie of Crows: Supposed to have between 12 and 26 pallets, which makes it an average of 19. This number is far far off my research. I have not encountered a single time more then 16 pallets. In fact, out of the 20 tries i had on this map, i had 17 rounds with 13 pallets, 1 time 16, 1 time 12 and 1 time 11 (checked multible times) which is off the charts. This all makes an average of exactly 13 pallets.
    • Shattered Square: This one is supposed to have an absurd number of an average of 20 pallets. My average was way lower then that, and i have not been on a single map with more then 15 pallets in my 20 tries. The average: 13,9 Pallets per trial.


    • Since people talk about that map, i did 20 tries on Wreckers Yard. All my tries were between 12 and 14 pallets. The average was 12,9 pallets.
    • Rotten field: Average of 10,5 pallets, had tries with 9 pallets, maximum of 13.
    • Thomson House: Maybe i was really unlucky in my 20 games, but i had not a single map with more then 10 pallets! 9 or 10 pallets are the standard there. 9,5 Pallets on average.
    • Mothers Dwelling, i did only a few on those had between 10 and 12 pallets.
    • Last but not least the "requested" Cowshed. Between 12 and 14 pallets. 20 games seed.


    What is even more outstanding besides a very low amount of pallets is this:

    The amount of pallets that are not even considered "weak" but rather a safe hit are very high. You encounter those like i show in the picture on almost every single map, often more then 1 of those "tiles". If you rules those out, the pallet count is much lower obviously.

    Another thing that stand out are the amount of pallets on the very outside of the map. If you are forced as a survivor to play those, you might steal some time, but you are guaranteed to go down there since you are zone out.

    This brings me to another thing: Deadzones.

    What you see on that picture is not uncommon. In fact i almost had on every map those deadzones. On this picture, there is only 1 pallet (main building) and 1 bad tile (T&L). This area is like 25-30% of the map. And for those sneaky players out there, i dont need to mention the lack of possibilitys.


    I did more smaller research (like for example Coal Tower which had between 7 and 11 pallets or dead dawg saloon). But i thought i would not include those, since i am also excluding the most survivor sided map (the Game) in terms of pallets.


    Kind regards

  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,217

    I 100% believe you. The picture I posted was 10 months old in my source thread - so only god knows how old it really is.

    The thing I also noticed and complained about a lot is, that about every 1-2 weeks or so a single pallet from some random map goes missing on average.

    Sometimes the count goes brutally down - like with reworked cowshed or the last time they changed the game (from 32 pallets on average to 25 - this is also the point from which I consider the map rather killer sided then surv sided).

    Like I do understand that those maps WERE unfair. No argument there. But why is it always only (with small exceptions like at least breaking the worst 3gen on one RPD) maps that favor survivors, that need to ve changed while saloon and Midwitch "looks to be perfect" - and there are many more killer favoring maps then those 2.

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 3,288
    edited September 30

    I can not confirm that they reduce the pallet spawns frequently since i am only back less then a month. But i was suprised to say the least how extreme they buffed killer in every department. Dont get me wrong, some stuff had to get adjusted, but i think they went way to far with so many things.

    The problem is, as you mention the killer main mentality. I can understand why that is. You win 20 games in a row with killer, then you get destroyed a single time by a very strong team or bad rng and you forget completly that you just had a streak. The one game where the killer gets destroyed sticks out so much, that it overshadows all the previous victories. I for myself can confirm this.

    On the other hand, in survivor games, it is not such a big deal when you die, and actually the great games where you held the killer for a long time sticks out the most, you forget that you just got facecamped 3 times in a row.

    My final suggestion for the devs: Add more pallets and the majority of realms, make those absurd unsafe pallets more safe. After all the killer buffs this game apparently had in the last 2 years, it is time to adjust into the other direction. Dont let yourself get fooled by killer main complains, they are in most cases unjustified. Look at the data. 60% winrate on killer is not normal. Especially because the real number is much higher (Killer give hatch, killer also stay afk, killer farm, killer have mercy and let the last survivor(s) do the remaining gens ect).

  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,217

    I don't agree with this. Being wiped out "hurts" the same for both sides. At least for me

  • kit_mason
    kit_mason Member Posts: 130

    Since everybody including many former DBD content creaters are now playing TCM

    Because it's a new release of a good game in the same genre. Few are playing instead of DBD, most are playing alongside - which is healthy for both titles, as competition always is.

    Way to much fog. I know, Horror game and so, but i personally and probably most others wont get scared by that game anyway, besides beeing in an intense chase.

    I actually have been arguing that the fog is entirely irrelevant to gameplay. Lots of players play with very high brightness making the offerings to thicken or weaken the fog worthless at worst and 100% not purple rarity offerings at best.

    Most maps got reworked and are now absurdly killer sided. Even less pallets then before (i counted 6-8 in custom games, more 50/50 then before, lack of playable loops, more deadzones. Strange choice.

    To my knowledge the only major map reworks we got were RCPD (which if you werent playing 2 years ago you wouldn't have experienced regardless), Red Forest getting a visual overhaul and minor changes to Coldwind Farm. In my experience most tiles are still as they were then and you can run them the same.

    Beside massive survivor nerfs (less distance after hit, maps favour clearly killer, longer healing time, longer gen repair time) killer became by design even more oppresive. This might be a bit early to judge, but some new killers like the alien can do everything at once. Teleport, ignoring pallets/windows, beeing stealthy and still 115%? Seriously who came up with that?

    The Xenomorph's power has a windup sound that you can use to avoid it, and that's if you choose to take no preventative action whatsoever . They're not that stealthy thanks to Flame Turrets basically having their own unremovable heartbeat, and their power can be entirely mitigated by proper Flame Turret placement, making them a basic 115 M1 killer with no power. The killer is strong, yes, but ultimately their power is balanced if survivors play the game properly.

    Something is wrong with fast vaults. Is this a bug or intentional?

    It's a bug that was fixed on the latest PTB, so it'll be fixed in the next few weeks.

    Overall, it feels like the devs are aiming for a 70% killrate for whatever reason. Stats show that 60% rate is already reality and those were apparently before some majore survivor nerfs. Why?

    60% seems to be BHVR's aim, and our best look at statistics show that most killers fall within the 50-60% range, showing the necessity of Survivor nerfs. I also saw your arguments about the true kill rate being artificially heightened thanks to Hatch, etc and I'd like to propose the counter also being true - survivors give up. A lot. They either DC and are replaced by bots that are programmed to miss skill checks so they end up sandbagging you or they let go on hook and leave you an entire player down, which in DBD often dooms the rest of the team to oblivion.

    These two factors would possibly balance out but as a survivor main I'd say the kill rates might actually trend high if you discount games that are lost because your teammate didnt get their Deliverance or got grabbed on a gen or something like that.

  • OneAutmLeaf
    OneAutmLeaf Member Posts: 102

    I think the main issue tbh isnt the amount but where they are located, half the time you get crappy dead zones but then you get like 5 pallets all next to each other making looping a nightmare, when you get a pallet cluster survivors have it way to safe bc they can just drop a pallet and run to the next or greed it and run to the next, they really need to fix that imo

  • xEa
    xEa Member Posts: 3,288

    There is some truth in it of course. Dead zones create other zones with a lot of pallets. This is not true for all maps of course. Many maps have such a low number of pallets, even with deadzones, the other zones often just feel normal.

    The problem is a mix between all those things imo. Many pallets these days are very unsafe und not playable. At the same time, those who are around are not many. Droping 1-2 of those anyway relative unsafe defenses often makes a big part of the map already unsuable for survivors.