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does my skill really count when i'm using WoO?
title says it all.
most of the time when i do "good" at getting chased by the killer, i feel as if it's all thanks to this perk, meaning that i would've been already dead if not windows. and honestly, it really is useful in chases, so not surprising it's one of the most used perks. but i still feel "unfair" when using it. when i do take it off and try to get good at the game without the help of this perk, i always either run into a deadzone where a pallet had already been destroyed/used by another teammate, get downed shortly...the list goes on.
not looking for tips or anything. just a genuine question, and wanted to know if whether anyone else feels the same way.
Comments
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I dont think its that big of an issue, like yes you are able to see thr windows and pallets but you still have to loop by yourself, I genuinly think WoO is completely balanced, like its just a guide to help you but doesnt loop for you of completely destroy chase mechanics like MfT does, run it dont feel guilty it helps you to actually start memorising tiles so that you dont rely on it on the future, fair perk imo.
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The reasons you mention why it feels unfair are the reasons why I think it's such a great perk actually:
- It helps newbies learn layouts
- It helps nullifying the solo v swf gap in chase because it lets solos know where their teammates dropped stuff
- the better the survivor the more value they get from it, a survivor who is bad at looping won't suddenly become a god because of it
I do understand feeling bored out of your build and thinking it helps you too much (I did a no mither cure and played with 0 perks for quite a while because of that lol), but i think it's silly to think strong (but not OP) perks are unfair or "crutch" because the player gets value from it, like... it's the whole point of them and pretending like it's bad to use good stuff is silly otherwise we would all be running calm spirit.
But to go back to your question, your skill absolutely matters when using WoO, if you were bad at looping you wouldn't be getting much further because of it. You feel stronger with it because you don't have to focus as much and it makes solo q much better, but neither of those things are bad in my opinion.
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There is a difference between a skilled player using woo to avoid dead zones and baby Kate who throws every pallet on the map within the first 10 seconds of her chase.
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Woo won't help you with getting mindgamed at loops or greeding and getting hit or using los and missdirection better to maybe leave some of the tiles and save pallets for later.
Woo won't also help people knowing how to run a tile in general or which nearby tiles you can link to save resources and waste as much as time possible.
I vs a lot of people with woo and some of them loop well while some of them go down very quick. Same with people not using it. Of course I am not saying it is a bad perk, it is great but it is not a miracle and it can create an illusion of abundance until you end up in deadzones.
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That perk wont help you learn the maps since you'll just turn off your brain and look at the pretty yellow pallets and windows.
Personally i don't like windows players since they tend to throw pallets left and right down leaving nothing for others. It should have a cooldown.
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otz made an video about this i believe. he said that in the ptb, 10 macmillan maps is not a good idea for dbd because it makes the game bloat with map variations that increases skill-floor to loop as survivor.
a new player that start dbd survivor has to spend like 1000 hours playing nothing but survivor just to understand the map spawn and map window locations. that is a lot of the time devote to just one particular aspect of the game. back when dbd first came out, there was only like 10-12 maps. for a new player, this did not take too long to understand the maps because they would repetitively get the same map. so in just 200 hours, survivor could easily familiarize themselves with the maps. now a days you need a lot of time in the game to gain necessary map knowledge to play survivor.
this is what window of opportunity is doing now a days. it is skipping learning process of familiarizing the maps. the downside is that survivor are no longer learning the maps because they are not required to learn the maps. they just run to yellow. another strength of the perk is that the perk is removing requirement to have game-sense for where killer is chasing. largely, you cannot blame survivor too much on this one because their only information for where killer is terror radius. they cannot see their teammate aura from distance at base-kit so finding out what pallet are broken is somewhat difficult. WoO fills the gap by showing the pallet spawn locations.
the end result is you have large player-base playing window of opportunity as a perk to have an enjoyable chasing experience as survivor.
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This is how you know killers are running out of things to complain about.
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Ehh, somewhat. It really only shows you where its "safe" to loop, basically turning off abit of memory and luck. It maters more what you do with it than you running with it and while we think its abit of a crutch, we can't deny its usefulness across all levels.
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I think where it helps even a pro 10k hour player is just the pure RNG of maps. Even the best of loopers cant know what some maps have so this perk can still be objectively super helpful.
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it's a crutch if you use it as a crutch. If you go around with this perk predropping and camping every pallet yea it's a crutch, but you can also use the perk to try to chain loops together. Precognition isn't a skill. It doesn't matter how good you are if the pallet is gone in every tile you ever been ran to
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When playing killer, most of the time I like finding a WoO user. I call them my "Pallet Pal", because they help me clear out so many pallets early on, particularly in the more well-traveled areas, so it's easier to get downs in mid/late game. I've had some WoO survivors wind up helping me wipe the rest of their team so well that I let them go at the end.
The only WoO users that are annoying are the ones who try to max greed everything, so I usually just tunnel them out first or let them bleed out while smacking around the other three survivors if the team is overly altruistic.
But to answer the question, no, WoO doesn't invoke skill any more than NOED does for killers. Both are crutch perks for when you're new to the game or you can't/won't learn how to improve.
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Rhetorical question: Does it make a survivor less skilled if they run to where a pallet usually is, and they go down because it was already used or it didn't spawn due to RNG?
WoO is a symptom, not a problem in and of itself. If a survivor is able to chain 10 safe pallets together even when you're zoning them, that's not an issue of WoO highlighting the pallets. It's an issue of too many safe tiles spawning and their spacing. Same thing with busted setups. Groaning Storehouse mid near shack is disgusting. It usually spawns 2 or 3 safe pallets that chain into shack. You can hold W as a survivor no matter which way a killer goes and get to another safe pallet without using any of them. Not an issue with WoO. It's an issue of maps being tuned around MMR 10 players in most places and a blind devotion to RNG tile generation.
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It's a great perk that definitely helps new survivors get to know the maps. It's also great in solo queue, as you often take chase mid-match and have no idea what resources are left on the map. It's not a problematic perk though. But it's probably the best quality of life perk in the game.
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No? windows is a good solo q perk, that just tells you where dead zones are.
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It's a bit of a crutch perk, in the sense that if you use it often, you're gonna be noticeably-worse at the game when you take it off. That said there's not really any reason you'd ever need to take it off, like any other perks.
The survivor does still need to decent at pathing and if they're going to loop, then obviously they need to be good at that too.
I'd argue though that if the other three survivors actually focus on gens, then the survivor with WoO doesn't actually need to loop, they can simply be-line from pallet to pallet to window to pallet and pre-drop and by the time they run out of resources, the gens are done or nearly done.
Whether or not it's overpowered is tricky. It's not obviously-strong like old Dead Hard or old Decisive Strike, it doesn't allow the survivor to do anything they can't do normally do, but being able to just always know where the next pallet or window is located is really strong, and the only way most killers can counter it is Blindness, which if they're NOT running WoO is a pretty weak status effect.
I think the fact that it's so overwhelmingly used, it's by far the most popular survivor perk and it's the ONLY DLC perk in the top 5 maybe even top 10, that says a lot. Given that BHVR mainly balances perks around pick-rate, shows it's gonna get a nerf eventually.
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More than any other perk, it feels kind of like a set of "training wheels", and imo, is really only of great value to new-ish players. Like a bike, the key is knowing when to take them off.
By the time you're 1K+ hours into the game, you should already have a very good (though perhaps still developing) sense of how maps are laid out, and where windows and pallets will be.
Of course where WoO get powerful is that it will prevent you from moving into an area where resources have already been used, and you wouldn't otherwise have known. This is obviously most useful in solo, since in SWF this would likely have already have been communicated.
WoO allows the player to have to think less, and not to have to track resources as much. To simply react and not to plan/strategize. The downside to this is, of course, that if you rely on it, you may really suffer without it. The goal should be to learn the maps/tiles so you don't need a perk like WoO, and you can use that perk slot for something else.
So yeah, for many players it is a total crutch.
My advice to players using WoO who aren't beginners is to stop.
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Overabundance of resources that are close together, plus aura reads on them all the time.
Yes that does reduce the danger of chases quite a bit.
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The same could be said about lots of perks. Like if I wasn't running Overcome or Lithe or BL then I may not have made it safely to the next pallet. If i wasn't running Distortion then I may not have lasted so long unfound. If I wasn't running Saboteur then we might have been down an extra person that we needed. If I wasn't running Deja Vu we wouldn't have gotten that last gen done in the nick of time. If I wasn't running Lethal Pursuer or Corrupt Intervention then it might have taken me too long to find that first survivor and I could have lost more gens faster. If I wasn't running Lightborn then that flashlight save would have cost me. If I didn't have NOED I'd have ended up with a 0k.
I feel like the point of perks is to help with perceived areas of weaknesses. I watch a streamer who hasn't used a single perk for 3 years and they do amazingly well. I hope to achieve that one day. I've actually been thinking to only start using 3 perks and slowly work my way down.
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your skill to memorize and identify maps and structures? depends on how you do without the perk. you still can be using woo to see what resources are left. your looping skills? if you go from pallet aura to pallet aura, drop them and hold w rinse and repeat, you are a bot. but if you can hold the killer for a bit on weaker maps, or at weaker tiles/loops you mostly chilling.
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WoO is more useful out of chase than in chase to me when playing solo. As others have said, it shows what resources are being burned but it is also a helpful tool for tracking the killer. You see the chase icon in the HUD and can see a pallet drop giving you an idea where the killer is on the map. That's extremely useful when you aren't with friends who you know won't drop the killer on you as you work a gen.
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Slapping a cooldown on it ensures the perk goes back to not being used. It originally had a cooldown, and wasn't seeing use because of that.
An experienced survivor is going to greed a loop to maximize the value they get out of that loop, while baby Kate is going to pre-drop or camp every pallet and keep on running.
On Ormond, there is a line of pallets between the snow tractor and killer shack. Baby Kate is going to pre-drop all of those, while Dwight with 1000 hours is going to greed the tractor pallet, maybe even sacrifice a health state and then go towards shack.
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You would like to balance around who chains titles better, than around who runs into deadzone more.
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Windows does have that "sat nav" problem though... If you study a map and work out your route, then try to follow it, you learn your path almost first time... but following a sat nav, you can drive the same route for 6 months and still not actually learn the route.
WoO is the same, where because you have an automatic guide to pallets and windows, you actually never bother to actually learn tiles and structures...
I do way better when I have the perk on, but I don't think its overpowered... I do however think its a bad habit perk. I have started banning myself from it so I actually learn how to play without it... and I'd encourage any newbie player to do the same.
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