Nerfed DS is the main reason tunneling is so popular

Before the Decisive Strike nerf, every killer had to take a huge risk by tunneling, because the 5 second stun was unforgiving. Right now no one is afraid of DS. For all I know, the majority of people were fine with the old DS aside from working when exit gates were powered, but that part was fixed. Literally no one asked for the stun duration nerf except for the people who tunneled. I'm pretty sure the developer update said something like "We are fine with the place DS is in right now". But why would they nerf it so heavily then? I know that a perk shouldn't be a solution to a game mechanic, but for the time being it could really help.


  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,217
    edited September 26

    it's a change for a sake of change. Same as ruin. They didn't have to ruin ruin, but alas - DS and ruin are both shadow of their former glory. All in the name of "changing meta"

  • GensByDaylight
    GensByDaylight Member Posts: 528

    Honestly, DS at 5 seconds should be basekit. Just make it disable upon a protection hit, and slightly tweak that definition and tunneling would be solved.

    I'm sure both sides would make up 3000 reasons why tunneling is needed and attacking with DS is needed, but that always happens.

  • Emeal
    Emeal Member Posts: 4,102
    edited September 26

    You premise is false, Im a veteran and I played back then. Killers would just eat the stun anyway, Killers feared DS as much as survivors did when It came to NOED. It was rare to see a Survivor do Totems out of fear of NOED and at best Killers would just slug you until DS ran out too.

    The 2 extra seconds wont change much anyway, yet you guys are hailing to it like it would solve tunneling with no evidence to back it up.

    Maybe like, idk Dont pull the Survivor off the hook when the Killer is still in the area? Maybe try to distract the Killer or take a hit for your teammates? So many options for Survivors, but they always unhook behind my back like cheeky lemmings.

    As to why DS was nerfed, I was used offensively as a non tunneling tool, which Survivors still do. The only version you could stack with Head On to stun for like 7 seconds. It was use too much exclusively and the meta of it was bad.

  • WilliamSN
    WilliamSN Member Posts: 524

    I've said this in a similar DS thread, 5 second stun would be fine, if the offensive capabilities of the perk were gutted.

    A survivor being able to prevent the killer from *not tunneling* via bodyblocking, then getting punished by anti-tunnel tools like DS because he was forced to hit and down the bodyblocker is ridiculous.

    And incase the killer mistimes the 10s Basekit BT the bodyblocker just runs off to a locker and forces the DS anyway instead of taking the slug state.

    Overall the conspicious action criteria needs to be expanded on to include more survivor actions.

    Bodyblocks, protection hits, Flashlight / Flashbangs , 50%+ heal progress, etc etc. are all "actions" you do that actively "attack" the killer or when you feel extremely safe.

  • GentlemanFridge
    GentlemanFridge Member Posts: 4,680

    I'd say this happened indirectly. As mentioned by others, tunnelling was already a thing with the 5-second stun. Nurse, for one, didn't give a damn.

    What did happen however, was that a lot of people gave tunnelling a shot because the anti-tunnel perk was dead according to the community. They noticed just how effective it could be, and saw no reason to go back.

    Going back to a 5 second stun discourages tunnelling, sure, but by no means is it going to put a stop to it. Tunnellers are, by definition, tunnelvisioned, and being hit with a DS is only going to delay them.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 1,037

    5 would be fine, even 4 would be good. Perk has been given a sufficient number if conditions to be healthy as an anti tunnel perk.

    Some might argue it can be used offensively, but that's a gamble, as if the killer guesses DS, you remain slugged not doing gens, and otherwise is only good vs. Tunneling.

    Seems fair to me.

  • mizark3
    mizark3 Member Posts: 1,528

    The problem with protection hits is their ruleset. If the Killer hits the bodyblocking rescuee for the healthy rescuer, that isn't a protection hit. At the same time, if the Killer intentionally tunnels the rescuee and the rescuer was injured, that does count as a protection hit. So the Killer can choose to tunnel and deny anti-tunnel perks as long as the rescuer is injured before the rescue.

    To help prevent offensive DS and bodyblocking, I'd just remove collision from unhooked Survivors until they do a Conspicuous Action. That way a Killer can 'shoulder-check' a Survivor, and if they phase through, they can ignore them easily instead of being forced to eat the anti-tunnel when the Survivor tries to block for their teammate.

    As far as DS, I think the perk itself should disable the Killer's power and set their charges and ammo (if applicable) to 0 for 5s per gen remaining. This way it doesn't affect M1 tunneling at all, but if Nurse tunnels at 5 gens, she can't blink for 25s, and even then she'll need to wait 6s to regain her charges after that. The below paragraph is more general, and not specifically directed at what you talked about.

    As others have mentioned, CA definitions do need an update. Completing a flashy/pallet save should count as a CA, but also shift self-healing to only count as a CA on completion. It just seems silly if post hook and you had your hand off your mouse, then you accidentally tap M1/2 and heal/sabo for a milisecond and now it legalizes your tunneling. User error, fair, but its simple QoL to not count if it was less than 1s. Healing in particular seems silly to me, because you can be healed by someone else, but when that medkit touches your skin by your own hand, your life is forfeit. Personally I wouldn't go as far as an allied heal counting as a CA on you, because you can be For The Peopled under hook with no input from you, and then any instadown could chew through that despite you not progressing the game yet.

  • I_CAME
    I_CAME Member Posts: 824
    edited September 26

    The DS change was a huge miss and I have no idea why it hasn't been changed back. Especially now with tunneling at an all time high. I played a lot of killer during this time period and I strongly disagree with people saying it didn't do anything against tunneling. It's not perfect but it DOES waste a significant amount of the killer's time. There are exceptions like nurse and blight but that has more to do with those killers being absurdly overpowered than anything else.