Do we really have Leverage and Botany/We'll Make It in the same game?
Leverage is just perfect example of how devs scared to death make at least decent killer perk, that do something besides giving info.
Let's just compare these 3 perks:
Leverage: need hard work to activate, it grows in strength as the game progresses, but it has at least some meaningful power at the end of the game, when it no longer matters. Action cooldown in 30 seconds on top of it all just sends this perk from Bad category to the category of meme perks.
Botany: no conditions, just equip it with the same power level that Leverage should earn by long and gradual work and will have it only if game is already won.
We'll Make It: Hey, remember how killer works for these 5% for 30 seconds? Haha, what an idiot! Just unhook this dude, i will give you 100% for 90 seconds. Wanna some cup of coffee too? Anything you want, dude. (c) Entity
My suggestion is:
Most obvious – remove 30 seconds condition completely. This won't make the perk even average, but at least it will stop being ridiculously awful.
If you want to make really good and viable perk, make it 10% per token. I believe that healing is still too free, that's why survivors could still ignore such strong healing perks they have.
Comments
-
I think there's some flaws in this comparison that could lead to undue conclusions, personally.
Mostly, you're comparing a bad killer anti-heal to the literal best survivor heal speed perks, which isn't super fair. You could just as easily compare Leverage to, say, Empathetic Connection or Desperate Measures-- Leverage still comes off poorly here because those two perks actually do something else in addition to their heal speed, which Leverage doesn't, but it's a more honest comparison of strength levels for the healing portion.
You could also compare WMI and BK to the far more potent sources of anti-heal on the killer side, including access to the Broken status effect and much higher contextual slowdown numbers like Coulrophobia, or something more consistent than Leverage like Sloppy Butcher.
The real issue with concluding that Leverage needs to be buffed such that it provides potent slowdown on its own, though, is that it stacks with other sources of anti-heal. If you make Leverage too good, and the killer also brings something like Sloppy/other Mangled sources or even something like Coulrophobia in some builds, healing becomes absurdly lengthy, and that's not all that healthy for the game either, pun fully intended.
That being said, Leverage likely could be improved. Personally, I want to see it activate on unhook instead of the hook action, because at least then it encourages survivors not to heal under hook which means you might be more likely to interrupt a heal elsewhere.
6 -
Leverage activating on Unhooks is not a bad idea.
0 -
I've never been a fan of comparing killers to survivors when it comes to perks, as the roles are completely different. I think we're better off improving killer perks so they are effective when synergized with as many different killer powers as possible, rather than asking for buffs so the perk has activation requirements that are parallel to survivors.
0 -
you're comparing a bad killer anti-heal to the literal best survivor heal speed perks
No way! Maybe because that's the point of the comparison: show that perks that do the same thing have a difference in 10 times and a completely different level of work to achieve the same effect?
Empathetic Connection and Desperate Measures (which is not a bad perk at all) are not only healing perks, but i think they could have slight buff too. But i don't know why you mentioned them at all.
is that it stacks with other sources of anti-heal
Yeah, in our never-heal-and-stay-injured meta it suuuuuuch a big problem. Even without it, where is the problem, if i chose slowdown healing instead of gens? Especially if won't get it, if you won't constantly go down, and i should earn it?
I want to see it activate on unhook instead of the hook action
Nah, it still will be very meh perk. 0,8 seconds of slowdown per hook, wow, what a number. I will run sloppy or gen slowdown and continue not to remember this perk exist. Double it or remove cooldown completely, better both.
1 -
My point is, you're making out like BHVR are, in your words, "scared to death" of making killer perks that actually do anything, unlike with survivor perks. But, you're cherrypicking just one bad perk to compare to the best options available on the survivor side, when if you're to make that argument at all you'd need to be comparing the best in class for both sides.
To the second part there, how would making healing even less appealing relate to the never-heal meta? I don't understand how this relates at all, if you make healing less appealing survivors will do it less. If the never-heal meta changes, then making healing slowdown too potent would be problematic. Either way this position doesn't make much sense, unless I'm missing something? I'm sure I am.
To the third part, it still won't be useful outside of unhealthy ultra-healing-slowdown builds if its activation requirement remains the same. Activating on unhook (and maybe giving some slight number buffs) would at least make it function in a manner that makes some degree of sense, because it'll activate at a time when healing is relatively common.
3 -
Oh, okay. Best anti-heal perk released in last 10 chapter? Can you remind me? Maybe in 15 chapters? No? Maybe in 20?
I mean, some survivors now prefer not to be healed at all, so in the current meta they won't even know that this perk exists in some matches.
Unhealthy? Even if i reach 100% heal slowdown in the end of the match, survivor can still neutralize it with a perk, that he doesn't need to earn. In other situations i take anti-heal perks, survivor take healing perk and they still have faster than normal healing. What part of it is unhealthy? Do you realize that you're trying to protect the most unwanted perk in the game right now?
1 -
We'll Make It and Botany Knowledge are a generic perk and a release character perk, respectively. Why would the requirement on the killer side be that it also has to be a perk released recently when you're using those as your benchmark?
Some survivors prefer not to be healed at all, meaning that buffing anti-heal isn't going to achieve anything in those cases. Making it too good only ensures more survivors don't want to be healed.
It's unhealthy because forcing survivors to stay injured preys hard on newer players, for one, but mostly because making healing too slow won't result in people bringing healing perks. People don't bring healing perks now, while claiming healing is so slow that it's not worth doing even though that isn't true. What people will do if you make ultra slow healing consistently doable is just stay injured and bring the perks that help them.
I don't know what perk you're talking about when you say I'm "trying to protect the most unwanted perk in the game right now", but by my view, perks like MFT and other stay-injured perks aren't popular on the killer side. Those are the perks that become popular when you make healing even inconvenient, let alone actually very slow. I'm not against buffing anti-heal, to be clear, I hope I don't have to clarify that, but I am against anti-heal builds that make healing impossibly slow very consistently, because the effect that will have on the game is survivors staying injured and slamming gens if they're skilled, and being demolished if they aren't. Neither are healthy outcomes for the game.
3 -
What difference does it make when they were released? You ask me to compare best with best (no idea why), I ask what exactly to compare? Killers have nothing better than Sloppy, which is still 2.5 times weaker than Botany. This dialog is just endless whataboutism.
1 -
I think I didn't convey my point appropriately, which could just as easily be on me as it could be on you, so I'll give it another shot with hopefully a little more clarity.
If your claim is that BHVR are too scared to let killer perks be good, outside of info perks, and you're using healing perks as an example, you need to match strength. Leverage is a bad perk even in the context of talking about killer perks, so comparing the bottom of the barrel for killers and the best available tools for survivor is going to be misleading.
You could just as easily make the opposite argument with the same tactic. Comparing Empathetic Connection to Sloppy Butcher or Coulrophobia; a tiny reward on the survivor side, and a massive benefit on the killer side, with the same requirements on both sides, which you could say means survivors get bad perks and killers get good ones. This would be untrue, but it would be just as true as your example, because it's comparing bad perks to good ones. You'd need to compare the killer's best in class anti-heal to the survivor's best in class heal speed to make this point, in either direction.
Of course, if your point is just that Leverage is too weak, I'm more than happy to ignore the comparison portion entirely and argue on those merits instead. I just think the framing of your post, comparing some of the strongest stuff available to a bottom of the barrel perk, is misleading.
2 -
Once again: I'm comparing things that do exactly the same job, but in different directions. If I wanted to compare the best anti-heal perks of killers with the best heal perks of survivors, I would do so. You see the difference here?
Emphathic Connection is "Make shure that my injured teammates will always be able to find me and be healed. I also have a nice addition 10% to it" perk. You're trying to compare red with warm again.
1 -
Yes, but you're comparing something that does the job very well for one side with something that does the job very poorly on another side, while also trying to make a broader claim about what those two sides have available.
That claim and that evidence don't sync up. That claim requires looking at either everything available for both sides, or just the best available for both sides. To use an example, let's imagine two different people offering different... idk, wood carvings, that'll suffice here.
Person A and Person B both have a broad variety of wood carvings, but if you were to take Person A's worst offering and Person B's best offering to claim that Person B is better overall, you'd be at best risking being wrong, at worst being actively misleading. It's entirely possible Person A's best far outstrips Person B's best, but you'd be missing that context with your claim.
Killers have good anti-heal, especially if we factor in addons as well as perks (which we undeniably should). Leverage is not indicative of the state of anti-heal, it's just a bad perk. It doesn't stack up against WMI or BK because those are the best in class, which Leverage is not but does exist outside of Leverage.
Again, I agree Leverage is too weak, but the argument used here is very misleading. If you just want to talk about Leverage, that's obviously fine, but this comparison you're using for the claim you're trying to support it with just doesn't work.
2 -
Competitions in wood carving. You can choose any tools that the organizers offer. My question is: how are there rusty scissors among available tools that are not designed for this at all, and a robot that automatically carves any masterpiece out of wood?
I'm done if that doesn't help you understand my point too.
1 -
...But, again, both sides would have both rusty scissors and advanced robots. You can't point to one side having the rusty scissors to claim bias when they're present for both competitors.
0 -
Don't remember killers have advanced robots. Coulrophobia is a last mediocre anti-healing perk on killer side they released. Sloppy is a best anti-healing perk and still 2.5 time worse than even Botany.
Don't remember they released good killer perk except Nowhere to Hide and UW since Artist chapter. That what i was about in the beggining.
Good day/night, i'm bored to death with all these pointless whataboutism in circle.
1
