after being slugged for 90 seconds you should be able to pick yourself up for free.
I am being serious, slugging is so boring and takes forever to end the game. and of course we cant disconnect against it so we are forced to wait the entire 4 minute timer....... idk seems kinda dumb to me but i guess what are others opinions on this?
Comments
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Should give slugged survivor ability to self kill instead. Most slugging case is slugging the 3rd survivor to hunt for 4K, means there are still Gens need to be done, ability to pick yourself up will not complete Gens, it will be an endless match of downing the 3rd and hunt for the 4th, 3rd survivor self pick up and repeat.
For slugging all 4 survivors, its a good work on killers, should not be punished by self picking up. Slugging all 4 survivors is a problem though, but self kill would solve that.
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Unbreakable & Boon: Exponential. Gl next
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you should be able to suicide on the ground if there are no standing survivors left aka if the killer is bleeding you out.
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after being healthy for 90 seconds survivors should be injured for free
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Ok. Ok. Thank you for teach us, Professor.
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We already know how survivors would abuse this suggestion. Anyone who played around 2nd floor RPD library with certain perks in play know.
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No, played a game yesterday as killer, survivors used a map offering and they kept running to a point (with boil over) where it was impossible for me to get them to a hook, i had no option but to bleed them out.
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Yeah, that's why I said if they are slugged for 90 seconds, you have plenty of time to go for someone else if they are trying to abuse it, and they can only do that strategy a maximum of 3 times by themselves 90 seconds each pick-up. this way the only way it can be abused if the killer is slugging on purpose. Maybe you could implement a "give up" option if you've been slugged longer than 2 minutes too idk. Also a guy above me made a fair point to run unbreakable + exponential but nobody wants to waste two perk slots just so they don't get slugged sometimes cause it rarely happens.
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I suggested this before, but only after AFK crows start to fly above you. You don't accrue AFK crows while recovering or crawling, so this effectively is still a 90s timer (~30s recovery, then 60s for the first AFK crow). It also still tells the Killer where the Survivor is, so they can't sneak away and hide to recover. If the Killer had to wait 90s before a pickup (especially since they had AFK crows), then the only realistic condition is 'Griefing: Targeting specific users repeatedly in order to ruin their gameplay experience'.
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You are suggesting that survivors who abuse this are entitled to 3 free escape attempts? so instead of the killer need to down people 6 times (for a 2k draw) 12 (for a 4k win) the killers would need to down people for 12 time (for a 2k draw) and 24 times (for a 4k win).
Also, if you dont wanna "waste" 1 perk slot for exponential or unbreakable (you only need 1 of them) then the issue with slugging cant be that big - if it was, everyone would run with 1 of those perks.
Im very much against this idea, unless you add H2H's idea too, for balance.
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If you run into a corner with boil over in any map and there is no nearby hooks then damm right I'll slug you.
You chose to go there. Accept the consequences.
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I love when people are like “this thing is a huge problem and we need a basekit solution, but also it’s not a big enough deal to be worth any perk slots”
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you mean the perks that were nerfed and the part of rcpd that doesnt exist anymore?
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you mean you want to make that perk base kit?
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No
There is nothing wrong with slugging, the issue your experiencing is bad team altruism. The fact that anyone describes slugging as a 4min wait to bleedout reflects the survivors performance as a group and the individual's failure at multiple aspects of play before the down even happens.
If it is that common for you, use perks to address it or join a swf.
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The fact that anyone describes slugging as a 4min wait to bleedout reflects the survivors performance as a group and the individual's failure at multiple aspects of play before the down even happens.Do you never get left to bleedout for 4 min while the killer does a map search for another survivor? Or just left to bleed out just because?
It's not like this is an everyday occurrence, but this does happen. Perks don't address it, they just lengthen the time. I'd vote for the quicker death/self kill option myself, because it's common enough that it should be talked about.
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You nailed it, this just never happens to me. Seriously maybe its happened once like 3 years ago, but I find it vary rare to vs a killer that uses slugging as much as I do or even bleeds me out at all.
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Skull Merchant already has this ability, lol. And to a lesser extent, Trapper, too.
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I feel like 90 seconds is probably fine.
That's long enough that it isn't just slugging for pressure anymore, there's really no reason to slug for that long and I can't imagine someone's teammates leaving them on the ground for that long unless they are either incapacitated or trolling.
I'm not sure why someone would be against this unless it's just a principle thing.
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Nah. No form of self-pickup should be basekit under any circumstances. When there are only 2 survivors left and one is slugged, then the slugged survivor should be able to give up and bleed out early after 30 seconds so the game can come to a conclusion, and Knockout should be reworked as it’s too oppressive against solo queue. But slugging as a whole is not a problem.
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Why leave your generator to go help your teammate when they can just pick themselves back up on their own, guaranteed? More genrushes ahoy.
There would also be a massive increase of running to the comp corner or other areas far from hooks where a killer can't reach a hook in time. Force the killer to slug you, then completely ignore the pressure it's supposed to create. More sabo squads ahoy.
No, a basekit Unbreakable, even in a weakened form, would do nothing but make this game worse overall.
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They could just auto put you on a hook.
Skip the whole bend down, get flashlighted, look around, carry the survivor, I hate that stuff. I do enjoy 4 minutes of watching a bleed out, but to make you happy, I'll take auto hook on the nearest scourge hook.
I'm glad we could compromise.
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Trapper? Really? Trapper has to walk cross map just to pick up his power. A better comparison would of been Plague if anything.
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Nobody is talking about making Boil Over basekit.
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Because it's 90 seconds of having a 3v1????
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Just bring 1 or two unbreakables in your team or FTP + buckle up and slugging strategies suddenly become much less effective.
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Nope, I've always been in favor of a self-bleedout mechanic if I spend too much time on the ground, but a basekit Unbreakable in almost any form will be abused against killers who aren't trying to slug for the 4k or out of malicious intent. Especially now with BGP being as strong as it is.
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All survivors left in the game are either in the dying state or on the hook: survivors in the dying state can pick themselves up
When 2 survivors are left in the match: they can always pick themselves up
Done
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Or maybe at 70s they could show survivor aura to killer that he can pick up himself in 90s. For 2vs1 I would half these numbers to 30s and 45s to prevent slugging for 4K.
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No. Altruism squads who play badly and all get downed while trying to get their sabos/blinds/hook and pallet saves should not be rewarded.
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Ah yes, further push people into slamming gens. Surely that'll be a hit.
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How is that a reward?
Nobody is on gens
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOO
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I swear some people really want to get gen rushed
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Why would I care about gens when they just handed me a 4k?
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Exactly, so how is that a reward?
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This literally could deny the killer of the 4K. What if you k/o’d yourself after being slugged and the final survivor found hatch? Like the killer doesn’t get their 4K.
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They screwed up and all are down. As things are now, I go around and pick them up, put them on hooks, match is done, 4k for me.
With the timer and basekit unbreakable, in the melee that ensues from this type of play from the survivors, a couple are likely ready to get themselves up and do so as soon as I lift a survivor. They reset the others, while i hook, effectively getting a second chance. I call that rewarding them.
I say instead, you give them the option to self bleed out after (x) amount of time has passed. They don't get the second chance, the killer still gets they win they earned, and survivors still have an out rather than sit through a four minute bleedout in other games where they face a more sadistic killer player.
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I'd rather be able to repair gens while on the ground after recovering. It would give the survivor something to do, give them some extra BPs, and add pressure for the killer to pick up without being unfair. Even repairing at a reduced rate would be better than nothing and more fair than being able to pick themself up for free.
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dev did try that with 45 seconds. with 90 seconds, it is likely fine to be slugged however you will feel like gameplay is really slow on survivor end. the recovery rate increase perks like boon:exponential would need to be adjusted to be halve the value. I am not sure what point of unbreakable and No mither would be because they would both be recovery perks... except one has drawback of being injured. either way max recovery would need to be no more then 50% on those two perks. anything faster then 60 seconds of recovery is really bad for killer under that system.
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The funny thing with the 45s that people kept claiming to be bad was actually the Mori system tied to it. Even in a classical slug scenario of an Oni snowballing with 3 downs, that yielded 28s of the first person downed, with 17s to pickup, then everyone else could still be hooked sequentially as long as you carried them to hooks en route to the next person.
(Here is a more detailed breakdown of the concept and picture above, feel free to skip if you got the gist of it.) In this basic Oni slugging from 3 power hits across the map, Oni still has time to hook each of them even when they were downed in a triangle of opposite corners (with 45s basekit pickups). From the first down in the top left, and the final down in the bottom center, the Oni merely needs to remember the order of downed Survivors, and they can't pick themselves up if they moved. After Oni downs the Yellow Surv 3, they go back to hook Red Surv 1, and try to find the hook en route to Green Surv 2. After that, then have a shortened timer of (an average) 11s to pick up Surv 2, and can repeat the same rough process en route to Surv 3. At that point the Oni could take the closest hook available (H3A) or attempt a more central hook to be closer to the action (H3B).
Since they tied the finished Mori to that same mechanic, Killers were instead purposely bleeding out to speed run attempts for a 4 down win. Personally I think the finisher Mori should be tied to (only) 1 Survivor alive and on the ground, and then 3 button options pop up over the Surv (like the current Mori/pickup button prompts), Quick Mercy (skip Mori, counts as hatch escape), Mercy (play Mori, counts as hatch escape and Kill by hands), and Murder (play Mori, counts as Kill by hands). That way people don't have to look for hatch, they can just end the match there and then. At the same time it doesn't prevent the Killer from having the option to manually find hatch themselves if they liked the old system.
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BHVR tried basekit Unbreakable. It was a colossal failure lol.
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Just add a mechanic giving the option where, after being slugged for 90sec, pressing ‘X’ puts yourself directly on the hook.
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almost no killers have any time to down 1 survivor in 45 seconds if the survivor is skilled at looping said killer. Just hold-w with 1 health-state is 20 seconds for m1 killer. this is not accounting all pallets or windows that exist in the map. down 3 people in demon fury is learn to play issue on survivor end. Oni's demon fury is loopable. it is just that it takes survivor skill to loop.
even at 90 seconds, you barely have enough time to down two survivors and walk back as killer from one end of the map to other end of the map. It is just that if someone is on floor for 90 seconds, they might bleed out eventually so killer might get a reward for downing people. that is why unbreakable works with that long recovery time. The only problem is that it is not fun for survivor to stay on floor for 90 seconds. that is why I do not advise increasing bleed out recovery time. It is better if killer get rewarded with faster bleed out timer for applying pressure to the team then trying stagnate the game. at same time, maybe slower dbd games is a good thing? it is a way to give killer's game-delay without introducing any game regression perks into the game for killer. I am just not sure if that type of game-delay survivors and killer were necessary looking for.
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After waiting for 90s at the exit gates, survivors should be put into the dying state and unable to leave for 30s. They take forever to leave, otherwise.
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Absolutely classic whataboutism
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Exactly, only a fool would leave a Survivor on the ground for an extended time if they didn't have a plan. The Killer can easily just hook the Survivor (and should, so that they don't lose on the pressure gained), and win much easier that way. The Killer deciding not to play the game in an engaging way should be punished, not rewarded. Reward hooks, punish slugs. There is no reason for the original 45s PTB basekit pickups, or even the more tame suggestion of 90s basekit pickups, to not be in the game.
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The Killer deciding not to play the game in an engaging way should be punished, not rewarded. Reward hooks, punish slugs. There is no reason for the original 45s PTB basekit pickups, or even the more tame suggestion of 90s basekit pickups, to not be in the game.
I do not agree. the survivor's skill-cap in the game is how you manage resources to repair all 5 generators and escape through exit gate. As this sounds, bleed out timer is resource in itself for survivor. Hook-stages, pallet resources, health-state are all different types of resources. The killer's skill-cap is about managing time. hooking survivors is a time consuming action. the killer needs to be able to allocate time for how they see fit in the game. forcing killer to hook takes away intricate killer decision making. The killer does not decide how fast or how slow the match goes. when survivors do generators quickly, slugging is one of only ways for killer to have chance to comeback and win. with any form of high-speed unbreakable, unbreakable prevents you from being able to perform comebacks because you can recover quicker then killer can down survivors.
In my opinion, I think slugging-bleed out slugging should be more plausible winning strategy for killer however I don't think it should be stronger then hooking. Just possible. there should be bleed out risks when playing as survivor. from my perceptive, slugging too unattractive when 4 survivor are alive for killer because survivor gets too many pick-up chances. That is my opinion to why i think Twins is unpopular killer. It is so unattractive to hook people as twins when victor downs people from far away because it takes too long for killer to complete their objective. the idea of pure slugging from start to finish is not effective enough for killer. the main challenge is how do you make slugging engaging for the survivor. my concern is that buffing recovery time for survivor gameplay to be too inactive. The survivor becomes too disengaged from the game because they're on the floor for too long. they will feel like they're not participating in the match. Most of strength in slugging in current dbd is 3vs1's. This is because if you can down 2 people next to each other, you camp the 2 survivors to potential find the last survivor. once you find last survivor, you can chase last survivor because you have near infinity time to down them. The final survivor trying to pick up other survivors while being chased by killer will result in killer waiting for slug to be picked up only for them to hit them right back on the floor. Once recovery timers are reset, then killer only needs to down you to end the match. All of this still relies on two survivors consecutively failing chases in short time frame. in that sense, I always see it as survivor misplay for killer to get a successful slug. this why I do not agree in regards to punishing killer for killer making a good play. One thing I will say in regards to slugging is that I do think that 3vs1 slugging and 2vs1 slugging is too killer sided. when someone picks you up from dying state, my opinion is that it is little cheap for killer to be able to directly put you back in the dying state. As far as end game 2vs1 slugging is concerned, i do not really like how survivor end games can be drawn out by either side from excessive stealth or excessive slugging for 4k. I am not entirely sure how to properly address it but I do not like how the end game is when the killer is winning. I wish there was some faster method of concluding the game for the killer in some capacity. I believe finisher Mori was dev attempt to make end-games finish faster. I just do not think it was hitting the goal.
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I would say Survivor's skill is having less incompetent allies than the enemy, which isn't skill in your control (outside of SWF and you pick who you play with). A competent Killer ignores the competent Survivor, and wins by default (as long as there is 1 Survivor less competent than the Killer). A 3v1 might as well be a free (delayed) win for Killer, as if you have 1 on hook, 1 in chase, the final 1 has to rescue, so gens will never get progressed, and hook states will accrue.
Just as a Survivor pre-dropping every pallet, or suiciding on hook ruins the experience for other players, bleeding out instead of hooking also ruins the experience for players. We shouldn't encourage bad designs. Lessening the buildup on DCs penalties could solve the suicide on hook problem, but more complex measures might be needed for intentional predrops of all pallets. Similarly a simple fix to bleeding out is a basekit pickup, at a longer than normal timer to reach the 95%.
Removing bleedouts doesn't force the Killer to hook so much as it forces the Killer to hook in a timely manner. The same player could be in an Exponential boon zone, or picked up by another player, or have Soul Guard or Unbreakable, and a basekit pickup mechanic would remove the ambiguity and have a simple understandable timeframe. Encouraging Bleedouts as a valid alternative primary 'win' would encourage the death of the game. People don't have fun when they don't get to play. Bleeding out forces people to not play. Most Survivors I pickup in a bleedout match are AFK and don't even move for 15-30s as they were clearly resigned to their fate and were alt-tabbed watching a Youtube video or something. At the very least Survivors could complete actions like gens/totems/exit gates if they were to include a bleedout intentional win, otherwise people would hard quit Survivor, because being AFK on Youtube is the same gameplay in or out of a match.
It most certainly isn't punishing Killers making good plays, it is punishing Killers for making plays that would kill the game. We don't allow cheating for the same reason, because people would quit in mass. The game's very nature of asymmetrical sides requires slowdown or lack of agency from the greater numerical side, but pushing that lack of agency too far makes no one play. Similarly the lesser number side must be hard designed to 'win', hence 4.6 v 4.0, hence Bloodlust, hence finite pallet resources, hence entity blockers on windows. No one is going to queue into a 15 minute match with 14 of those minutes better spent AFK outside of the game, especially if they made the correct play in every circumstance, and the games decision of 'you go down now because this is a 1v4' comes into effect. Naw, I'm going to either swap games, or only play Killer, but then there will be no one to play Survivor unless they are cheating, so you can't even play Killer.
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If you don't want to be slugged take one of the multiple anti-slug perks.
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A competent Killer ignores the competent Survivor, and wins by default (as long as there is 1 Survivor less competent than the Killer). A 3v1 might as well be a free (delayed) win for Killer, as if you have 1 on hook, 1 in chase, the final 1 has to rescue, so gens will never get progressed, and hook states will accrue.
few talking points. First, the killer does not know who weak links are in a team at the start of the game. The killer has to chase survivors and find survivor which is timing consuming task in itself to find weak-links. Survivor does not have any build-up to their generator objective. the objective is exactly same at the start the game as it is at the end of the game. secondly, strong teams don't have weak-links. the killer has to create weak-points for survivor to capitalize off mistakes. It is not that easy to create 3vs1's when the team is good. lastly, the idea that 3vs1 is auto-lose for survivor is not true. if there 1 gen or 2 gens remaining and they're all split, there is still good chance for survivor to win. You have successful to be looping the killer. there is no reason why survivor team cannot finish 3 gens before someone dies. gen speed in the game is very oppressive for killer when 4 people are alive. My opinion is that the matches for survivor have "delayed" wins when you use up all the effective pallets in the game corresponding to the killer. as long pallet remaining in trial, you can still complete generators in 3vs1. It is just many survivor are used to losing chases but still finish all 5 gens. 4vs1 is like that for survivor.
bleeding out instead of hooking also ruins the experience for players. We shouldn't encourage bad designs.
My first question is what about the mechanic is bad design to you?
Encouraging Bleedouts as a valid alternative primary 'win' would encourage the death of the game. People don't have fun when they don't get to play. Bleeding out forces people to not play.
I am not saying that it should be primary win condition. I am saying it should be secondary win condition that is slower but still possible to achieve. right now, it is too slow to achieve and almost impractical which hurts killer with slugging designs. I agree that being on the floor is not fun. that is why I said that increasing recovery time for survivor is not a good idea because the survivor becomes too disengaged from the game because they're on the floor for too long. DBD should remain as fast-paced game and increasing bleed out recovery by a large amount would potentially slow the game down. The only way positive i can see from doing that is that you do not need to give killers any base gen-regression perks but this comes at expense of survivor's fun factor. The reason why I say this is because Peanits wrote long ago in 6.1 june update : " Slowdown perks should be an option, but not the only option to stay competitive. Fast-forward to today after 1 year and 3 months, killer still use most of the same perks that were stated to be used in that post Pain res, Pop goes weasel and Corrupt Intervention. the only perk that you do not see is hex:ruin which has been replaced by Surge. These are still most common perks used by killers. This means killer are still mostly dependent on game-delay perks. The only variation that killer have is what type of game-delay perks synergy with said killers. Slugging is a possible form of making killer not require any of those game-delay perks. I am just not sure whether slugging is correct type of game-delay for survivors to play against if recovery timers were increased by a lot.
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