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Why do you only want nerfs and no buffs?

jonifire
jonifire Member Posts: 1,436
edited November 2023 in General Discussions

Instead of nerfing MFT or UW, you could ask behavior for buffing perks, so that they are as strong as UW and MFT.

I think with many strong perks and some that are strong in their own way, the game would be much more fun and interactive!

Comments

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 17,604

    The last part is very true. There is just no way to buff some Perks to an extend that they can rival the strongest Perks. At least if they should keep their intial function.

    And I am also not really for nerfing Perks so that they are meaningless. There should be strong Perks, it should feel good to equip Perks. Sure, the Devs could bring every Perk down to a level that they only add very minor benefits, but this is not it.

    But it does not really help that the Devs are super-careful with Perks. A good example is Any Means Necessary. When it released, it got called OP by Killer Mains, in reality, it has been bad since the beginning (simply because it almost never happens that a strong Pallet will be left unbroken). If we look at the history:

    • 1st Buff --> Lowering the Cooldown
    • 2nd Buff --> Seeing the Aura of dropped Pallets
    • 3rd Buff -->Removal of Cooldown

    There is basically nothing they can do at this point to make AMN good, because the only thing left is the time to set up a Pallet, but this cannot really be changed, because otherwise Survivors would be able to stun the Killer and set up the Pallet during the Stun animation.

    The only thing the Devs can try is to buff Perks in basically every Patch and see how it plays out. If it is too strong, they need to nerf it again. But most of them will probably be still not good enough. But they have to try if they want to get other Perks into the Loadouts of Players.

  • Tsulan
    Tsulan Member Posts: 15,093

    They could give it a try. I mean, we had some really OP perks on release or the PTB. Devs could use those stats for a Event.

    Like original CoH, that stacked on top of the high heal rate. Boil Over rework/buff. Mettle of Man nerf reversed. Undying with both the chance to stay 5 times and keeping stacks.

    Basically everything that was once deemed a balanced idea for the devs, but resulted in the community calling it OP should get brought back. Even if it would be just for an event.

    The community could actually like it.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,516

    I think most people want both?

    When a perk's too strong, it needs to be nerfed. Buffing other perks wouldn't stop MFT from being too strong, the only solution there is to nerf it. Same with most other things that have gotten nerfed recently, you don't fix those things being too strong by making other things stronger.

  • Paternalpark
    Paternalpark Member Posts: 663

    100% agree. Once mft is gone I'll be back to using 2017 build as nothing significant has come out for survivor in years.

    New perks have been gimmicky and niche.

  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,965

    Because MFT and UW aren't fun to play against. Why would we want more unfun perks?

    They tried this with Eruption, Overcharge, Boil Over, Buckle Up, and now Background Player. None of them were/are fun to play against. And for some of those it only took a slight number buff to push them over the edge.

    Buffing things to MFT level wouldn't even solve the low variety issue because people would still run the one that is slightly stronger. For example, Sprint Burst is an amazing perk yet everyone is still running MFT.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,965

    Buffing more than 100 perks or nerfing 1 perk... Decisions, decisions.

    Also, if you keep buffing everything to always be stronger than what came before, you don't achieve balance but power creep. Just because everything is broken doesn't mean it's fair.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266

    The buff on Eruption within RE2 DLC to re-sell RE1 DLC was insane...and it took them...9 months (?) to nerf it

  • lav3
    lav3 Member Posts: 775

    I agree many perks should be buffed but BHVR's perk balancing is very awful.

    Their perk buff directions are :

    1)still no reason to use - Pharmacy, Calm Spirit, Hangman's trick, Territorial Imperative, anyone use these?

    2)unnecessary (sometimes feel like nerf more than buff) - Wiretap, Blast Mine buff was questionable. Deja vu is just free repair bonus compared to Friendly Competition.

    3)huge buff to the degree of making killer side more miserable - Look at how Buckleup and BG Player became.

    I'd rather prefer powerful perks nerf first.

  • Xyvielia
    Xyvielia Member Posts: 2,418

    “People understandably don't like to feel like the main reason they lost was because the other person/people used strong perks, they want their skill to matter most.”

    Will you please showcase this for us sometime by providing a video featuring some your team’s best Survivor and Killer players 1v1, perkless, in chase, to give a better overall feel for what that looks like from each side.

    I personally would like to know (through visuals), from the experts (Devs only), how long on average a Survivor should be able to stay up vs each Killer and their respective powers, as well as how quickly a Survivor can be taken down by each Killer.

    and btw, Rally wish we could see you all more often, especially playing DBD, and experience you vibing with each other and commenting on different aspects of the game, joking around with each other, etc., while playing.

    There have been questions in the polls regarding what we’d like to see more of, behind-the-scenes-wise… it’s DEVS. We want to see Devs doing Dev things and your lovely Dev personalities up close and personal while you’re Devving!☺️🥳

  • Maelstrom808
    Maelstrom808 Member Posts: 685

    The thing is there really isn't much that is too strong on either side. There is a massive amount of perks that are weak to almost detrimental to run. If you nerf the top 2-3 perks on each side, almost nothing changes. You have to keep in mind that a large amount if not the majority of perk complaints come from a place where players just don't like facing the perk because it impedes what they want to do, not because it's actually too strong. If you nerf those perks, they just complain about the next thing that impedes them until what's left is a soup of stuff that really doesn't do much.

    If you buff the bottom perks though you open up new options. New options means more players taking different perks. This varies the meta. The more you work from the bottom up the better your diversity becomes.

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,731

    I would like both buffs and nerfs

    Buffing some perks and nerfing others

    Having more perks being "meta" is a good thing in the long run

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 3,322

    You’ve raised an intriguing point on strengthening perks, and even spoke of balance. But you didn’t say much about improving weak perks, so I wonder… what is your take on leaving those perks to languish?

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 5,054

    But then perks like mft are released that are clearly problematic from the get go.

    I do t really get what the thought process in it's creation was.

    "let's just make the second part of the chase harder for no effort at all?"

    Who thought that this would be fun to go against?

    I genuinely would like to know.

  • jonifire
    jonifire Member Posts: 1,436

    One perk that is easy to buff, would be calm spirit. You only have to delete/change the part, where you do chests and boons slower.

    It wouldn’t need much time. I don‘t understand why it punishes you for useing it.


    I‘ve got two ideas I want to share to a dev and know what you think about it:

    -1: Could you make that luck also effects chests, so that you get better items. Also please make the loot of chest better without luck. I can‘t remember the last time I got a purple item from a chest.

    -2: A second way to escape as team (with hatch): At first you do 3-5 gens (depending how many are alive), which reveals the hatch. Then you have to find or do something on the map and after that you can open the hatch with a purple/red key. When the hatch got open there should be a bubble for the killer, that lets him know, that the hatch got open and where it is. There should also be a way that the killer knows, when the survivors go for this way. And if you don‘t want to implement it to every round, you could make a red offering for survivors.

    I hope I get an answer from a dev, what you think about this ideas. Thx

    If my post appears more than one time, I‘m sorry, there came a lot of errors, when I tried to upload it and it got deleted, after I changed something.

  • Rickprado
    Rickprado Member Posts: 892

    The problem is that MFT make some killers MISERABLE to play as, specially the Knight and the Singularity. And its a great advantage against most of the M1 killers in the game. Its understandable that people were calling for nerfs to that perk.

  • jonifire
    jonifire Member Posts: 1,436
    edited November 2023

    I know that it is annoying, I played as ghost face against it. I think it‘s not too strong only annoying to face.

    But that’s the same with many perks.

  • D0NN1ED4RK0
    D0NN1ED4RK0 Member Posts: 848

    Personally I want some buffs but I’m too scared that the buff ideas could maybe make the perk op

  • HamsterEnjoyer
    HamsterEnjoyer Member Posts: 786

    AMN Is pretty good when good survivors use it. Some pallets are better dropped and unbroken than they are standing upright for the killer (especially maps like Hawkins) so bringing them back up is insanely useful.

  • Iron_Cutlass
    Iron_Cutlass Member Posts: 3,866

    I honestly think this is a good response.

    It's not exactly about only buffing or nerfing, it's about doing a mix of both to try and balance out the positions/strengths/weaknesses of things.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 4,971

    Man absolutely beat me to it. Power creep has destroyed so many of my favourite games. Really glad to see game devs who understand this 🤘😁🤘

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 5,667

    Calm Spirit and Distortion are the two biggest problems in the game... and they should be deleted, reworked, or heavily nerfed.

    Perks shouldn't make it super easy for survivors to excessively hide, because it just encourages the killer to tunnel out the other survivors. It also encourages survivors to never help with chases, and to just watch everyone else get sacrificed.

    Survivors that excessively hide are awful for everyone else in the game. It's frustrating for killers. And when I'm playing survivor I NEVER EVER want these people in my games, because it means I either need to play the game excessively safe (which can drag out the game to 30+ minutes when all the survivors are doing this), or I need to just accept the fact that I won't escape because the killer will find me over and over before finding any of these excessive hiders.

    And as survivor, it's often frustrating having excessively hiding teammates, because they often aren't repairing as much as they should, because they only want to repair if the survivor HUD shows the killer chasing someone else. Or they'll excessively pre-leave generators at the first sight of a visual terror radius, which also means the generators are barely getting repaired.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,749

    how and what perks do you buff for them to reach the level of absurdity of mft? beast of prey buff: you get bloodlust 2 seconds into a chase? or infectious buff: you periodically make people in your TR scream?

  • Maelstrom808
    Maelstrom808 Member Posts: 685

    Quite frankly, that's BS. Bad players will be bad players. What the perks do in my games is allow me to push gens, get unhooks and heals, all unmolested, and when it comes to the final push, I swap out and put myself in front of the killer so the guys that have some hook states can knock out the last gen or two while I keep the killer occupied. I wish everyone ran them in my games as it would waste so much more of the killer's time hunting for targets.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 3,322

    I’m surprised you read their diatribe. I stopped at “Calm Spirit needs a nerf.” 🤷🏽‍♀️

  • Maelstrom808
    Maelstrom808 Member Posts: 685

    I get the power creep issue, but the best way to solve that is by putting caps on numeric values of things like gen progression/regression, healing, haste/hindered, totems, stuns, etc and overall limiting how much perks, abilities, items, and addons interact with each other. This allows you to create strong abilities, but limits how abusable they are within the overall context of the game.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 5,667

    It does need a nerf. Stealth perks shouldn't be active 100% of the entire game. Stealth perks like Off the Record are much healthier for the game, because they work as anti-tunnel, instead of literally just "works all the time, even if the survivor has never interacted with the killer the entire game"

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 7,318

    "You have to keep in mind that a large amount if not the majority of perk complaints come from a place where players just don't like facing the perk because it impedes what they want to do, not because it's actually too strong"

    Spot on. It's like the folks who run full aura builds, they feel Distortion is too strong. But to the killers who don't run any aura perks, Distortion is meaningless and a waste of that survivor's perk space.

    Buffing bottom up is the way to go imo too. If there's more variety to pick from (that actually *helps*) then people will be less likely to run into those perks that annoy them so much.

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 7,318

    Gonna take a stab in the dark and guess you play with aura perks and Ultimate Weapon? As a survivor main, neither of those perks are bothersome to me when my team mates have them. Played with an Adam the other day who had Calm Spirit, and the two of us were working on a gen. I screamed and the killer came our way, so I ran off and instigated chase and the killer didn't even check the gen so Adam continued uninterrupted. It was great for the team.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 9,513

    that is wrong way to go about perks. Buffed perk should not necessary make them meta. the perks should just be good at doing what one would expect them to do.

    For example Technician has two effects. the first effect is making skill-check not produce loud noise notification. The second effect is that it makes generators have lower volume. In other words, your suppose to be able to do silent generators. Does this perk fulfill silent generators? Well no, not really. If i am working on generator and it is on, chances are that killer is going check that gen. Why would I use this perk if it does not fulfill that fantasy of doing stealth generators?

    On broader scale, perks contain synergies. For example, Plunderer instinct+Ace in the hole+Appraisal is chest looting build but.... it is not worth looting chests. Why would anyone uses these perks if it is not rewarding to loot chests? Dance with me, Deception, Parental guidance and self-preservation are all perks to suppress scratch's marks to try to lose killer but once again, none of them are worth using. They have very bad numbers to fulfill that fantasy.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 5,667

    Me: Players that run perks like Distortion or Calm Spirit, don't like to help with chases

    You: I got this great story where my teammate was using Calm Spirit, so I got chased instead

  • Brimp
    Brimp Member Posts: 3,550

    Because buffing perks to MFT level is just making another perk that requires little to no effort to get a massive effect. Sure some perks are FINE doing that but MFT just passively allowing for a speed boost (speed should be handed out VERY carefully in games like these) that can't be countered unless a killer dedicated a build to exhausting survivors or some of the niche exhaustion addons.

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 7,318

    What do you know, our experiences differ! I have plenty of team mates who don't help with chase, with or without stealth perks. Not because of them.