Iron Grasp
I think Iron Grasp should be buffed so pallet and flashlight saves don't make the killer drop the survivor.
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Why? That would be overpowered. Iron grasp is completely fine as is.
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Maybe not Iron Grasp, but IMO, flashlight and pallet saves are the other-side-of-the-fence equivalent of tunnelling/camping/slugging, so I'd be more than fine with some fixes to it. Having perks that can grant immunity to hook denial, maybe conditionally, would probably be good for the game.
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Ok maybe not flashlight saves but you got nothing to counter pallet saves so I still stand by my opinion.
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Finally there will be nothing left to stand between Wraith and the tunneled survivor.
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I’d rather it just let you lunge while carrying a survivor
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Hex: Blood Favor. Down the survivor and block the pallet they are under.
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That + Mad Grit = NYOOOOM
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Blood favor gets removed in the first min of the game it's not a reliable perk.
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Ok that might be an issue. Although I kinda need to see it now...
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Ok. This was funny 🤣
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A Spirit Fury equivalent maybe. After 2 saves you're protected from the next one.
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Guaranteed broken as hell but it would be mad funny!
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It should at least instantly fill the wiggle meter up to 40-60%. Otherwise it will be broken as hell.
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You said there was no counter. I listed a counter.
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Just admit it, you failed to bring survivor into the basement, right?
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Big no my man, sure the perk could become more usefull, but this is way too much of an effect, removing pallet saves is just not a good idea.
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Nah. I love this perk and it's fine as it is. Running your buffed version of Iron Grasp alongside Lightborn would give survivors almost no chance to save their teammates from the Killer.
Some players already think Lightborn is unfair, but that perk combo would surely be completely unfair.
I don't want Survivors to hate me.
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It's not a counter if it's not reliable.
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A counter is a counter. Blood Favor shuts down pallet saves while the hex is up.
Ultimately, killers will never have a reliable way to shut down pallets, because it's a limited resource that killers can break once used.
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There needs to be SOMETHING for killers to counter pallet stun saves, other than either walk away, find a new survivor, and hope they don't also go down under a pallet or eat the stun, break the pallet, and start the chase all over.
My idea so far has been a micro-Blood Favor that is not strong enough to be a hex, but has similar effects.
For 3 seconds after downing a survivor, pallets within 4 meters are blocked by the Entity. The perk then goes on cooldown for 90 seconds.
Maybe replace the long cooldown with a tradeoff, like increases pallet stun duration by 60% / 55% / 50%.
Or maybe the tradeoff could be what @Grigerbest said: Instead of an instant wiggle it only partially fills the bar, but still by a significant amount.
Post edited by Nos37 on0 -
That is not quite true my man... It stays a counter, just not a strong one...
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Sure, this works for the FIRST survivor you down, and ONLY IF you can down the survivor in the first 60-90 seconds of the match before Blood Favor's cleansed.
This "counter" is as effective as saying use H:NOED to counter gen rushing. The gens still get rushed...
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Pallet saves can't be left as is...
Be in a duo/group on comms. Have Windows of Opportunity equipped. Run to pallet before getting downed. Never get hooked until there are no more pallets left on the map or every survivor is slugged*
*Assuming that there are no Unbreakables, Flip-Flops, Power Struggles, Plot Twists, or Boon: Exponentials
The killer has NO counter (beyond the first minute of the match, IF they brought Hex: Blood Favor)
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I don’t think it should give full immunity but it should increase the speed of picking up and dropping by 50% which would make saves harder and save a little time for the killer.
I do think the perk needs something whether it’s this or something else, it just feels completely inferior to Agitation right now in almost all cases.
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You can just slug him and take chase to someone else, they need to be close to get the drop on you and this is probably not problematic in most games as there are not many players that play around this on purpose. You can try to bait the pick up, worst case you just run UW and use it before picking up to see if someone is close to you.
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Not every hex gets cleansed within 2 minutes... But sure it has the possibility to get cleansed.
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I mean would it really though, 90% of the time you down a survivor you get a hook out of it anyway so would 1 perk slot for removing that other 10% really be that strong or just be annoying
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I've been in situations where I could not ever get a single hook because of coordinated survivors.
Starts off with blinds. I adapt and counter with Lightborn.
Then it's bodyblocks. I adapt and counter with Mad Grit.
Then it's hook sabotages and horsey perks. I adapt and counter with Iron Grasp.
Then it's last second hook sabotages. I adapt and counter with
Hangman's TrickAwakened Awareness. (I preferred Hangmans, but they nerfed it by making it only affect four hooks instead of all hooks 😥)It's gotten to the point where I have all 4 of these perks in a loadout on EVERY SINGLE KILLER. Even that's not enough
Now it's purposefully going down under pallets...
The best I can do is play Trapper, trap 1 side of the pallet, pick up from the other side, and hope they don't coordinate holding the trap open for someone to run in for the drop.
This means to counter all this crap survivors on comms get away with, I have to play Trapper with ZERO chase/slowdown/endgame perks. Meawhile, they just need a flashlight and Iron Will (maybe Clam Spirit if they suspect the killer has Ultimate Weapon or Infectious Fright).
And survivors would call a "counter" to pallet saves overpowered?? 😂
Killer can secure the hook they spent time in chase earning, but that's 1 less perk slot doing other things. 😔
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Iron Grasp does need some love, but that'd be too much. I've always wanted it to buff the pick up and hooking speed by by like... 20%.
An anti pallet save perk should be it's own thing.
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Against bodyblocks you can just drop and chase them like... The perk is really not worth taking even if they all take hits constantly, just because they will figure out you have and then just not doing it...
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Okay, drop them and chase the other guy. When you down them? They do it again.
Drop them again, and chase the other guy again. When you down them too? They do it again.
You get no hooks. 3 people waste all your time. 1 person does gens. You lose. You wasted so much time in chase and got nothing! You're the poster-boy in their YouTube compilation now!
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There already is a way to counter pallet saves. Step one: check for survivors nearby Step two: kill or chase away nearby survivors, or make them drop the pallet the first survivor was under step 3: pickup the most recently downed survivor
Depending on what step you're struggling with, you know what aspect of gameplay you need to get better at.
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When you're playing against a team that's just a lot better than you, kinda a given they're gonna win. There really is no reason anyone should ever be running lightborn, it's a complete waste of a perk. You get the exact same effect as lightborn by just facing a wall when picking up survivors. If there isn't a nearby wall, then look for any nearby survivors. Also try to pay attention throughout the game to where survivors are so you can figure out if they are even nearby and what direction to face away from so they can't get a save when they just manage to get in range.
Besides, if you give up a hook to down a second survivor and then hook that second survivor, it's a net plus for killer. The reason is that 3 survivors aren't working on gens for the duration. One survivor that is down, one survivor you're chasing and hopefully about to down, and one survivor that had to leave their generator to pickup the down survivor. If no one went to pickup the down survivor, then you get 2 hooks anyway.
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You chase them away and they come right back.
You commit to them and they just kite you away and go down under a different pallet. Try to pick them up and the survivor with Background Player is there in a heartbeat.
Meanwhile, the survivor you left under the pallet gets picked up or picks themselves up. and has their exhaustion perk back. Better to eat the stun, which is not a counter. It's just a lesser of the lose-lose you're in.
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You say that as if the killer can just spawn a wall wherever they'd like, to prevent the blind.
And I used to think the second part of your statement was true. Then I found myself at 1 or 0 gens remaining, asking "if everyone's here 'throwing the match' then WHO is doing gens??"
I no longer think that.
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If it takes you so long to get a down in chase that the dying survivor can be brought all the way to full health, then you just need to get better at chasing. It takes 30s for a down survivor to get to 95% recover on their own or 16s for another survivor to heal them to injured without a medkit. Takes another 16 seconds to get them to full health without a medkit. At a minimum you have 32 seconds to get a second down before survivors reset completely, realistically you have even longer than that if there isn't a 3rd survivor nearby. Considering the fact bloodlust builds after 15 seconds of chase, you should generally be able to get a second down before a survivor is fully reset unless you're in a particularly bad map or something. If the 4th survivor comes over to you and does the same thing while the other 2 are healing, this is basically the best scenario for you because now no one is doing generators and as long as no one is doing generators it doesn't matter how long it takes you to get a hook because survivors aren't getting any closer to escaping that entire time. Bonus points if you have a perk like Jolt/Surge, Pain Resonance, or Ruin, because at that point survivors are actively getting further away to escaping in this scenario.
If you're regularly blood lusting before you're getting a hit, then you're going against survivors that are a lot better than you and you're going to need to expect to take the L and just use the match to learn to do it better next time. If blood lusting before getting a hit is something you're regularly experiencing in all or most of your matches, then you need to spend some time learning to chase better.
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Only if they can take on overly long chases... If they take several hits so you don't get a hook and you still don't manage to get at least one guy down in a reasonable time then I cannot help you, they might just be better than you.
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I think having both will be overpowered. HOWEVER, we can make it to where Iron Grasp doesn't drop the carrued survivor but does stun them in the process, giving the carried survivor more time to wiggle out.
"What if they get stunned and they use a flashlight mid-stun" Carried survivors can't be removed mid animation. They'll have to time it perfectly to be a frame second after the animation is over to blind them, thus getting them off the killer. The required the survivor to have a flashlight and know the timing.
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"Getting better" does not magically remove windows or Made For This from the game.
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That's fine. Survivors will be better than me, and they're allowed to be.
I SHOULD NOT BE MATCHED AGAINST THEM though
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Fair, but that is a completely different topic... I don't think a perk should compensate for that in a way to make it just impossible to get outplayed in that sense.
Also agreed matchmaking is wild sometimes, but maybe it gets better with the changes they made, we will see.
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OPs suggestion is a hard counter tjat completely removes all counterplay around pallets, and is probably way too much.
I really liked the idea of carry lunges, and was deflated when realising this broke it.😅
To throw my suggestion in the ring... There isn't a perk that does faster pick up speed as it's primary focus that I'm aware of. There is Fire Up! and that's it I think...
Perhaps a nice fair buff for Iron Grasp is to give it a 30% pick up speed bonus?
Would help vs. pallet saves, flashlight saves, etc without being an outright hard counter. A vet player could probably inform me of some point in time where something like this existed and it was broken somehow... but if not, could be pretty nice. Might even replace Lightborn for some players, as it'd mess up flashlight save timings.
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You barely need timing for a flashlight safe these days... So I don't think it would be better than light or in any sense.
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I don't disagree, background player makes all of it kinda trivial... numbers could be argued, but what is important is what do you think of the concept?
For flashlights you wait until the killer gets the survivor off the floor, and starts their animation to put them on their shoulder when you go for the blind. If you speed that animation up enough, that timing means they have to do it earlier, somewhere in the intiial pickup animation which makes it tougher to time, and also actually get into position. It becomes harder to execute overall...
You don't need it to work 5 times, you only need to catch people out once or twice, and that's hooks you wouldn't have gotten without it...
Whether its overly strong or not, I think a pickup speed on Iron Grasp is a nice little buff, and gives it an identity that doesn't exist in the game atm, as opposed to the poor man's Agitation that Iron Grasp currently occupies.
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Its not really poor man's agitation it is more a part of the basement camp build... I think we could come up with something more useful, because it would not really be a good perk, but if you just want it to have a different function, sure, why not...
However I just would want to make flashlight saves harder and or nerf background player, because it just does not need timing anymore... Earlier u needed to at least put some time in to properly get the safe but now you can just blind whenever... And while we re on it you should not be able to blind when you are not even in the fov... That's just dumb.
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I mean, it's pretty much a discount Agitation... it's basically the same goal of making reaching whatever hook you want easier. Basement build generally runs both, but outside of running both, I'd say Agitation is the more useful perk. Though truthfully it's not a argument I would be that invested in :D
So yeah... staying on the actual point, I totally agree that Background Player is pretty goofy atm... like as annoying as a flashlight save was, at least the guy doing it had to really know to what he was doing to pull it off.
Original BP I felt it did it's job fine before really, but wasn't gonna comlain at the small buff announced for the PTB... then the live version hit with everything cranked up to 11... and now even if you don't look at the gameplay side... it just looks flat out silly.:D
And yeah, blinding outside of FOV, I'd call a bug... but with this nonsense in here too, it feels pretty bad...
Still if not Iron Grap, a pickup speed perk is one I would like to see in some other forn that Fire Up. Something like Fire Up!, Bamboozle/Superior Anatomy, Brutal Strength and pick up speed Iron Grap would be a lark ^^
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Yeah but Agitation gives you more speed for faster hooking or more distance, whereas Iron Grasp only gives you more time/less wiggling, while the goal behind it might be the same, the path there is different.
I mean sure liked I said before there can be effects added to it or what not.
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Calling iron grasp a discount agitation honestly is too much oversimplifying. They are perks that do fundamentally different things, it's just that what iron grasp does is basically meaningless. There is no real benefit to holding a survivor for longer, when the game is designed that when you pick up a survivor your goal is usually to put them on a good hook as soon as possible. If there was a mechanic that in and of itself made holding a survivor for longer beneficial to killer then "suddenly" iron grasp would be a clearly different perk from agitation when the perk itself hasn't changed at all.
And before someone says "if you're admitting it's useless then it needs to be buffed" there are more useless or almost useless perks in the game. With 246 perks to balance, and hundreds more add-ons and 33 and counting killer powers, not every perk can possibly be balanced in a way to make them all useful. And the changes being asked for here are not only unnecessary, they aren't healthy. And the end of the day flat out getting rid of pallet saves is just taking away interactions between killers and survivors in a game about them interacting. If there actually is a real problem with pallets in dbd, the solution is not adding a perk to turn them off. Not only is that incredibly lazy, it's bad game design.
Lightborn frankly is also not a healthy perk but its saving grace is that it's mostly pointless if you know what you're doing and it isn't worth sacrificing an entire perk slot for it so it's rarely run at mid-high mmrs. Shattered Hope also is just bad game design. The solution to boons isn't adding a perk like this, if this was the way dbd wanted to go they should have made it base kit. It also, again, just isn't even a good perk worth running especially as they had nerfed the most problematic boons by the time they added it. If you honestly truly think that pallet saves are not good for the game, you should be advocating for having them completely removed or otherwise having it changed or nerfed, not to have a perk that just removes it if you decide to use it.
Also, just for your own benefit, you should really stop using light born. If you're always using lightborn, you're never going to learn how to deal with flashlights, and then you're always going to be reliant light born instead of using better more useful perks.
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