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Does Windows of Opportunity need a nerf?
This is the most used perk. It's not just a noob info perk. Its usage is extremely high in high mmr matches, to the point where most survivors have it. Stats from a few months ago show it was the most popular perk (all MMR).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504400#Comment_3504400
The strength of the perk is being able to avoid dead zones and immediately understand the layout of a tile. Being able to avoid dead zones is a very strong effect since entering a dead zone is effectively a guaranteed fast hit. For that reason, it can provide multiple extra health states.
Comments
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Not really.
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Imo we can nerf Windows if we nerf Pop + Pain so we don't need to do like 7 gens each match :)
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The perk doesn't make you "immediately understand how to run a tile". Newbies aren't suddenly god loopers with it, they still pre-drop or camp pallet first chance they get. And good players already know how to loop and are still as good without it.
Nerfing perks because they're popular is not a good thing, and if info perks (aura reading) was so strong killers probably wouldn't be complaining about blindness being the most useless status effect in the game all the time.
Finally, I'm fine with a perk countering dead zones when they shouldn't exist in the first place, and if they're "survivor made" dead zones (someone dropped all the pallets) nerfing WoO would only nerf solo queue.
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I don't think so. Most of the folk in high MMR are there because they're good at the game, with or without a perk. It doesn't show you how to run tiles at all, unless it gives you arrows showing you where to go. There's a reason people have recommended watching YouTube looping guides for several years and not just running WoO.
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From my take
I think the perk is fine and one of the reasons survivors use it is mainly because they no longer have second chance perks so now they mostly use this perk while looping to avoid making mistakes cause it’s not like back then where when you make a mistake you can just press E and erase that mistake so yeah I think the perk is mostly fine cause it’s a healthy alternative to the second chance perks survivors used to run back then
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I still maintain adding a short cooldown of say 20s after a rushed vault would help get rid of the "auto pilot" way of playing, which I do believe hinders new players significantly from ever actually learning tiles. Being forced to rememebr what you saw would benefit new players in the long run...
I also think itd be more fun and engaging with that cooldown as well, but ultimately... no, WoO is fine, I'd be against any nerf intending to reduce its popularity.
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My rework suggestion:
-Show pallets and vault locations outside a 48m range.
As it stands, the current Windows completely takes away from the resource memorization aspect of looping, so reworking it like this forces the survivor to memorise pallets and vault locations well-before they chase there.
Basically, no more auto-pilot. Survivors actually have to use their brains.
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WOO sounds like it's OP but it really isn't. The survivor may know where the pallets are now but if they don't know how to loop then the perk is all but useless. Killers have perks that almost instantly destroy a pallet once it's dropped which makes it a disadvantage for a survivor to have WOO.
Running from pallet to pallet is also a good way to throw the entire game for the rest of your teammates because this game is mainly centred around attrition. I've seen this happen on multiple occasions too. I used this perk when I first started playing and it definitely helped understand the game and where pallets are but I was still hot trash at the time. Maybe this perk being the most used perk ATM could also mean the game is getting a huge influx of players.
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It is necessary to reduce the number of pallets at high MMR, especially for SWF; now you cannot find a match where 4 swf would not play with this perk while placing pallet cards.
My decision is to either make more perks for blindness, or reduce pallets for swf, high mmr survivors, or nerf the perk
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I would nerf it to not activate unless in chase for x amount of seconds. Other than that, I would leave it unchanged. That was peops can't completely avoid dead zones before a chase even starts.
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No, the perk is completly fine.
I don't know why people think that WoO makes you a good looper, stop complaining about a perk that does nothing.
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Believe or not experienced players can play just fine without it. High level survivor teams don't even use this perk. It's mostly something people use because it's impossible to know where pallets were dropped in solo queue. All nerfing windows would do is make solo queue even weaker. It's not going to do anything to SWFs full of strong survivors. Really any survivor with 2000-3000+ hours already has all the maps memorized anyway. The kind of survivors who can run M1 killers for the entire game with no mistakes are not good because of windows. They're just good at the game in general. That's a whole other issue and has more to do with certain killers just being extremely weak.
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I don't know that Window's as it functions really provides the opportunity for a fair nerf. But I don't think it's the harmless perk many seem to believe it is.
What I find, is that once a survivor learns how to run a tile (a fairly low skill floor, but not ground level), Windows leads to the most boring, most dragged out chases imaginable. Wrote, formulaic pathing, that takes you around to every single pallet and window on the map, exhausting their use, until you either give up or lose 5 gens. It might not be as obviously impactful as old DH, but it's not far off being just as uncounterable. Windows turns half-decent survivors, into bots. I'm not great in chase as a survivor myself, but when I run Windows, I can run the killer for entire gens-worth of repair time.
The problem is that nerfing Windows in any significant way, not only lessens this impact, but also robs less-skilled survivors of a very useful crutch perk, which can help them learn the game without feeling so lost and confused. So while it's somewhat problematic, Windows is also very useful, very healthy, for the lower end of the MMR scale. The fact that it has such impactful use at all levels of skill is the reason why it's the number one chosen perk.
It's catch-22, where the benefits of the perk are obvious and necessary, but the downsides of the perk are hard to see unless you're feeling the full force of it yourself.
The only nerf I could see that would really be half-way fair, is if stunning the killer puts the perk on cooldown for say... 20 seconds. It would take skill to score a pallet stun and incur the cooldown, and more skill again to plan for such a scenario and memorise the nearby loops for when you lose sight of them. Meanwhile the lesser-skilled survivors are likely to pre-drop and retain their info. But... it's still not likely to really impact the highest level survivors, who will still be able to make full use of it. So really this nerf would impact the mid-to-high-skill survivors the most, leaving the extreme ends relatively untouched.
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Those are already nerfed.
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I disagree that it's only a solo queue perk. Swfs also run this perk. It's extremely difficult to communicate what pallets were dropped in a swf since you would need to describe the exact location and have the entire team memorize all the pallets dropped. For example, describing what pallets were dropped in Hawkins is extremely hard since it's hard to distinguish between the rooms and there are so many pallets. The best that swfs can usually do is saying whether shack pallet is dropped.
Being able to avoid dead zones is a very strong effect since entering a dead zone is effectively a guaranteed fast hit. For that reason, it can provide multiple extra health states.
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No I don't think so
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Very good teams use clock callouts or just say top mid bottom mid etc. They could even just say the tile (jungle gym etc) .While maps have rng there is somethings that never change. Main will always be in the same spot (some have up to 5 variations rng like temple and grim, but thats maximum) as will killer shack (except on one map 2 possible locations).
Tiles will always be in the same spot (just the tile itself wont always be the same tile). The only thing that changes with ALL main, shack and tiles is orientation. Indoor maps tend to have the least amount of rng. Hawkins prolly has the most indoor rng, the 3 middle long rooms have a few variations.
If I use WOO I use it in soloq to know when my teammates have used a pallet, not too often do I use it to learn maps (I have 7k+ hours), except like the newest maps where i havent bothered to figure out the rng yet.
TLDR while there is rng, the rng has a pattern.
EDIT: maybe be slightly off on some of this doing this off the top of my head quickly.
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Killers already stomp solo queue and low MMR. Find ways to nerf high MMR survivors without kicking everyone else in the teeth at the same time.
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You would only see that in comp teams. There are still problems with that method. It's not precise enough. Saying 1 pallet dropped in North isn't helpful since would be many pallets in North. There's also an issue of direction. There's no set direction of North, South, West, and East, so a team would need to quickly decide from the start the orientation for their directions, which is also difficult. The hardest part is of course memorizing it all and applying it on the fly. When there are many pallets dropped around the entire map, it becomes too hard to track. It's also hard to remember while trying to loop the killer at the same time. It requires a lot of practice and effort, which I only see comp teams doing.
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I don't think this is a good idea because 48m is a long way and if you're in chase you probably won't have time to reach it. Don't even nerf the perk
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No, it´s not a really a ´´good op perk´´ if you know the maps
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Clock call outs are more precise than just saying North. In fact it seems like you don't know much about clock callouts (and im no expert play soloq predominately). theres as many as 16+ different precise locations. 1-12 the hands of the clock, can be a top mid bottom mid, middle, etc. As far as direction (most maps, not all but most) callouts give main the 12 oclock and shack 5 o'clock.
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Meh. Saying 12 o'clock in Hawkins still doesn't mean much when it could mean any of the pallets in the rooms.
Even Otz's team, comprised of some the best survivors, while doing the hardcore survivor challenge didn't call out pallet drop locations. I think it's safe to say that only comp teams would do it.
The strongest effect from it is avoiding dead zones. Knowing the tile layout is a bonus. Though, the bonus effect will become stronger as more maps are added requiring more learning.
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Cause hawkins doesnt have a main building, AGAIN indoor maps tend to have very little rng (so you can just memorize it and make the room where demo comes out of portal in tv show, 12 oclock and the stairs leading to the upstairs on the other side of the map 6 o'clock), Hawkins prolly has the most indoor rng, so yeah WOO would help on hawkins i guess but thats it really, for me anyway. I mean by now Hens prolly already put Hawkins back in the callouts zip file.
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Hens doesn't have Hawkins in callout zip yet (hadnt seen others with it either), but heres a general layout for those who need it.
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That's exactly the point. It shouldn't be a potent chase perk. It should be a PRE-chase perk that allows you to identify dead-zones, strong-zones BEFOREHAND and rewards you in proportion to how good your memory is, adding a skill component to the perk and disabling auto-pilot. This is why it is a fantastic rework.
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I think WoO deserves a range decrease (it used to be 20m before the buff) but I don’t think it’s a high priority compared to some exhaustion perks in the past
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The information provided is used to prevents hits. Your argument is kinda like saying pre-nerf Object of Obsession was balanced since it only provided info.
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Nope. What you said matches OOO perfectly.
"It's purely informational, and how the survivor uses that information is what counts. It's also on you to be able to play around what the survivor is doing, generally speaking."
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It doesn't need a nerf. It's not really a strong perk, what survivors do with seeing pallet and window auras is completely situational and does not guarantee a survivor a good chase at all.
This perk is so good for solo q, being able to see what pallets have actually been used by other players, so you don't go running to a pallet and discover there is nothing there and just end up dying or getting hit. Plus it's really good for new maps so you can discover good looping/pallet/window locations.
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OoO was nerfed because swfs could have one survivor running it and know where the killer is at all times, and even for solos free wall hacks was obviously pretty nice.
How does it compare to a perk that highlights stuff you can either see or remember / guess where they are ?
Why would an aura reading perk need a "skill component" when by definition you get more value the better you already know how to play ?
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I've always maintained it should be a time-based perk. For example, someone has 0-100hrs, they get the full effect, maybe with a slight buff over what it is now. Anything above that and the perk's effect gradually decreases until it basically does nothing. Make the perk generic and have it unlocked by default, give Kate a new perk.
Windows is great for learning maps, but there should never be a perk that encourages people to turn their brains off, which is exactly what it's doing. This way, the perk gives players time to get a good grasp of existing maps and allows them to learn core skills that they can then take on to new maps.
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Your argument is that because lots of people use it, we need to make it less powerful?
The logic makes no sense. You have no reason to nerf it? You just... want to.
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Honestly I agree with you now that you make it clear what it would do. I think though we can reduce it to 32m and not 48m. I bet it would still do the same
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If it had no counter it would need a nerf. But blindess can happen in like 6 different perks sooo
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"provide multiple health states" it doesn't, but i will entertain it does. Lunge on killer (which is basekit btw) is like dead hard for distance, if the killer didn't have lunge he would get stunned instead of getting a hit at a pallet. There's plenty of perks and powers on killer that provide "free health states/second chances" Any exposed perk is a free health state, myers, ghostface, oni basekit powers are free health states, no way out could be considered a second chance perk, etc
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Ultimate Weapon is pretty much the killer equivalent where you can shut off your brain and easily find survivors while negating perks such as Windows of Opportunity since they have the Blind status, only it’s not passive like WoO.
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It doesn't increase healing speed, gen repair speed, sabo speed, it doesn't grant haste, doesn't provide an additional health state, doesn't blind or stun the killer. It's the least controversial perk in the game that's actually worth running.
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it does not need a nerf.....
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Devs will most likely reduce it to 24m sooner or later, or bring back cooldown.
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Mostly no, but cooldown has to come back.
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