Perks have no effect unless they are equipped.
User:
3 gens provides countermeasures with perks such as Deja Vu, right? Do you feel like the perk adjustments weren't very effective?
DeadbyBHVR_JP:
Perks have no effect unless they are equipped, and since the Killer only focuses on guarding the three generators without attacking, continuously guarding them can prolong the match significantly. Therefore, the system will take measures to address this. We aim to make it something that does not affect normal gameplay. Details will be announced at a later date!
https://x.com/DeadbyBHVR_JP/status/1729557084629258280?s=20
This is a post from the official DBD Japan X account. (Translated using ChatGPT, so it might be a bit paraphrased.)
Putting aside the question of whether changes should be made to the 3 gens solution, I don't understand the intended meaning of the statement, "Perks have no effect unless they are equipped." It's obvious that perks won't activate unless they are equipped. Is there anyone who can provide more details about what he meant when he said, "Perks have no effect unless they are equipped."?
Comments
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Deja Vu isn't a reliable countermeasure to 3 gens because you can't force every survivor to run it all the time just in cass the killer forces a stalemate with a 3 gen.
Deja Vu doesn't do anything if it's not equipped.
It's the same reason BT is basekit now.
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No perk does anything against 3-gen defense, especially not deja vu. The moment the map has a 3 gen and the killer recognizes it, the game is over. It doesnt matter if the survivors realise it or not.
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I would say please make sure that your solution doesn't end up giving an advantage to survivor against killers that are not trying to force a 3-gen, but the survivors aren't paying attention. I never try to 3-gen, so when it happens, it's because the survivors let it happen themselves by just repairing the first generator they come to. Even when I don't bring Deja Vu, that's something I make sure not to ever do.
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What I mean is that it's natural for perks to have no effect unless equipped, and bringing anti-3-gen perks like Deja Vu is a survivor's choice. Now, even SM has been adjusted to not easily become a 3-gen, and I always bring Deja Vu when playing solo Q. BHVR said "DBD is a game of choices." Why make everything a base kit without differentiation in choices?
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This should be BHVR's stance on everything. So many issues in DBD have been 'fixed' by adding perks to help deal with them, but you shouldn't -have- to run specific perks to be able to deal with problems in the game's design. Exactly like this example.
Also Deja Vu doesn't help against a killer who has picked out a 3 gen at the game's start and never leaves, it only helps against a survivor-made 3-gen.
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Some of the comments are asking why Shattered Hope isn’t basekit against Boons.
By the same logic, Boon perks aren’t brought in every match, but when the Killer realizes it, it’s too late to equip Shattered Hope lol.
If Shattered Hope was basekit, COH probably wouldn’t have to be nerfed so heavily.
If not running Deja vu to counter 3 gens is supported, then shouldn’t the same be said for Shattered Hope vs boons?
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Oh please, no more basekit mechanic. It would just make game clunky.
Post edited by Astel on7 -
What are your thoughts on replacing the same thing with crawl leave, hook destruction, light PT, etc.?
Or are you only going to fix the items related to survivor frustration, as mentioned in the Trickster section of the latest patch notes? Certainly the comfort level of survivor play has increased greatly over the past year, but with it the game has become less about thinking and more about monotonous power plays.
It seems to me that Killer is forced to play with one mistake being fatal, while Survivor is forced to play in a comfortable but monotonous manner with numerous auxiliary wheels.
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Boons are perks, 3 genning isn't.
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What is crawl leave and light pt? lmao
Hook destruction is almost a non-issue because you can just bleed someone out if you really have to, you'd have to explain these new made up things, unless crawl leave is... survivors crawling away because you've decided to slug, or do you mean "heal teching" where a survivor heals another survivor as they're crawling out the gate to prevent pick-up? If so, sure let killers override the healing action in the exit gate area.
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"Hook destruction is almost a non-issue because you can just bleed someone out if you really have to"
In the context of this discussion I disagree. If we're talking about resolving boring and monotonous areas in gameplay, what's more boring than having to stand over a survivor for 4 minutes because they ran to comp corner after a hook broke? I've also recently had a game where I got a down in the exit gate at endgame and was able to pickup, but because I happened to use the wrong hook earlier in the game it was a free out for the survivor. Not to mention losing your valuable scourge hooks when the survivor decides to kill themselves on hook.
So yes, hooks breaking are very much an issue for killers, and there's really not anything killers can do about it. You literally just pick up and beeline for the closest one and hope it's a scourge if you're running it.
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Honestly if we're going by the logic of 'Perks have no effect unless they're equipped' to counter bad design, gen regression/progression itself shouldn't rely on perks. Weaker killers shouldn't feel forced to run one to three gen regression/blocking perks to have a fair enough chance against insane gen progression, which survivors shouldn't require kitted out toolboxes and gen progression perks to break 3 gens and insane gen regression. It's a losing battle either way with that argument.
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I’m just quoting the sentiments shared in the comments so I’m not the one you have to convince that these are two different things lol.
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Ah 😅 my bad lol
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how exactly are you 3 genning without regression perks?
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Because boons have built-in counterplay. Shattered hope is just the nuke button.
It's like facing a wall when picking up vs. Lightborn. One of the two just deletes the mechanic entirely, but it has innate counters.
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Regression perks are much more numerous and common than Boons, also you literally don't need perks to pick 3 gens and patrol them the entire game.
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you need to have like 2 distortion users on your team to not be able to break a 3 gen against a killer without slowdown perk(s). tbf i have no relevant arguments here just pointed out 3 genning is bound to perks; many survivor perks are counters to killer gameplay choices like slugging tunnelling 3 genning and camping, so.
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In the worst days of the gen kicking meta or with the OG Skull Merchant, everyone was able to break a 3-gen. But now that none of that exists anymore, it seems to be a problem of urgency? Totally ignoring that there are killers in the game like The Hag who have no choice but to play this way.
Where is my basekit Corrupt Intervention to prevent gens from be completed in the first two minutes of a game? I mean, perks have no effect unless they are equipped, and if we don't equip this one we lost 1/5 or 2/5 of our objetive with no counterplay... Most killers don't even stand a chance if they don't stack four gen defense perks, but that doesn't seam a problem.
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Most Survivors can't seem to navigate maps without WoO either. I hate to say they're being dumbed down but when you're most popular perk is a handicap...
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If BHVR are will Implement this solution, I think you must be careful Hug ,Trapper or Demo things like that.
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It's more likely they're trying to get on top of future problems rather than past ones. One of the most common killer requests is that maps be smaller, which BHVR seem to be taking into account with recent reworks. A consequence of this is that gens will naturally spawn closer together and opportunities to set up 3 gens from the start will be something alot of killers naturally fall into. Deja Vu shouldn't have to become a prerequisite to a game.
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Cant that be said about most perks?
Should we then have a rework aura readings ? - you cant retroactively put on Distortion.
Should we then have a rework of scream perks ? - you cant retroactively put on Calm Spirit.
Should we then have a rework all boon and hexes ? - you cant retroactively put on anti boon/hex perks.
and so on...
I thought this game was about to equip perks to counter playstyles, with out knowing if you would face that playstyile in advance.
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Reading someones aura isn't something that can cause the game to go into stalemate, and it doesn't remove all options available to the survivor.
Tunneling off the hook used to be an entirely uncounterable tactic, forcing BT to be used in every build, resulting in survivors getting chastised if they didn't run it. So it was made basekit.
3 gens can be a game breaking problem as we saw with Chess Merchant. Deja Vu helps with it, but it can't be solely relied upon.
Without a similar basekit safety net for 3 gens, (that can break a stalemate without just handing the win to survivors) there's always going to be the opportunity for another Chess Merchant.
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that response makes no sense. it is like they do not understand the problem. Deja vu is not effective at breaking 3 gens because the issue is not how fast player does gens. it is ability to work generators. when 3 gen are very close together, the killer is able to constantly push survivors off generators making the player unable to work on generators. this makes regression default kicking of gens far more effective because killer can outpace or at best slowdown the survivors generator progress for prologue period of time.
when generator are spread out, the killer is unable to push survivors off generators because walking time between each generator is too long. this makes kicking gens unrewarding as survivor outpaces progression by huge margin. killer need much stronger gen regression at base but there needs to some sort of limit towards regression so that the matches can end before 20 minutes. matches should not go past 20 minutes.
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Because the game shouldn't be decided by random guessing.
Killer camping? Did someone remember to bring Reassurance?
Killer 3 genning? Did someone bring potential energy/deja vu?
Killer slugging? Sure hope you have unbreakable equipped.
Killer finding everyone with ultimate weapon? Should have run calm spirit.
Killer on hex build? Why aren't you running counterforce?
Killer tunneling you out? You should have run off the record and decisive strike.
It's bad game design. If the killer have strategies that need to be countered by perks or else the survivors lose, the game comes down to whether the survivors guessed right in their perk selection. This especially becomes problematic when you look at soloq and having no idea whether you should be the anti-tunneler or anti-camper.
Perks should give advantages, but whether you have a perk or not should not decide the game. Some of the above list are absolutely fine, as Seraphor already mentioned most of these don't break the game. You can still deal with a killer who has aura reading if you don't have distortion, and a killer can still deal with a survivor if they do have distortion, it just creates an advantage.
Compare this to 3 genning. In games were the survivors happen to have potential energy, they win easily. If they don't, it's a slog. The perk doesn't give an advantage, it decides the game.
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You don’t need perks to counter half the things you just said.
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3-genning is very different from any of that tho. Scream/ Hex/ Aura perks are limited and have base game ways to play around. Once a 3-gen is set up, and if survivors aren’t running Prove Thyself or Deju Vu, then the game dissolves into a war of attrition.
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Which I noted in the post (quote: "Some of the above list are absolutely fine, as Seraphor already mentioned most of these don't break the game."). But it goes to show the amount of things survivors are expected to predict making the chance they're going to predict something like 3 genning very low.
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My bad I didn’t fully read your post before commenting. You’re right tho there is just too much things to counter to focus on bringing mediocre anti-3gen perks
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some maps have 4 gens too. how bad gen placement rng can be is one of this games worst issues.
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I think part of the problem with conversations around this topic is that a balanced solution rarely comes at the same time. BHVR makes an adjustment one way and it takes time for them to find the appropriate balance to bring up the otherside to compensate. It eventually happens, but in the mean time, one side has to deal with added features that benefit their opposition. For example, over the course of 2023, survivors have gotten the visual terror radius (a QOL addition that can be used for non QOL purposes to enhance gameplay against the TR of killers) as well as the UI Hud (which eliminates a large portion of the information gap beween solo Q and SWF), and the anti-face camping feature (which was more to address a largely unpopular playstyle - that the majority of either side disliked). In return, in 2024 killer will be getting a FOV slider (another QOL addition that will likely also be used for the benefit of gameplay elements by reducing the ability of survivors to perfom certain techs and immerse/stealth themselves.)
Another issue is a very human one, neither side wants nerfs/adjustments without the other side also getting hit - its a very common reaction. Look at any conversation around balance in the DBD community and you will almost always see arguments about "Well if X is getting nerfed then Y also needs to be nerfed." Likewise, neither side wants the other side getting buffs. When the UI hud news was released a portion of the killer community was firmly against it - saying that it ruined the fog of war element of DBD (even though many of those same people agreed that solo q was in a much worse state compared to SWF at the time.) Likewise, I suspect a similar conversation will appear once the FOV slider is introduced.
At the end of the day we have to have some degree of faith that BHVR knows what they are doing.
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I really dont think 3 genning is an issue anymore, maybe during gen kick i could see it but not now.
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