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Why?
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If you see you will not get all or any of them why not try to show you want to play nice to just get some bloodpoints out of it or stuff?
The question is, why would you try? You're going to lose anyway, so why not get it over with and play the next game? A match in which you already know, that it doesn't matter what you do because you can't win anyway, is not fun for most people. You don't get anything for playing nice. Mostly not even a "gg". It's more likely that your opponent will relish in the power trip and double down on rubbing it in to make you feel bad. Which feels even worse, when you try to be nice because then you don't deserve it. The game doesn't reward you for that either. If you lose, then you'll likely get less points out of the match then if you win. No matter how you win.
Also, every one of us has a bit of an ego and anything that damages that ego will lead to us getting upset and irrational. Some people are better in controlling these emotions than others but for the most part it hurts our pride, if we wanted to win and then lost. That's also why many people constantly aim to improve themselves. In that situation, you will likely not feel like joking around anymore. So that option doesn't exist for a good portion of players. What remains are the 2 options I listed before.
That will maybe also help that the survivors do not be so rushing, just maybe if a survivor do see that the killers became calmer and do not rely on these tactics to win, they maybe became also calm and do not go all in so much.
I'd say we had that before. Not because killers played calm but because killers were so weak, that survivors could relax anyway. This is not something I want to go back to. The era of bully squads is over and that's a good thing. It's also wishful thinking that this would only lead to survivors playing nicer. Because survivors like winning just as much as killers do, so they wouldn't stop. I mean, try it yourself. Play pallet Freddy without perks and send yourself to GoJ. Now, don't tunnel, camp or slug. I did this a few times and every time it ended with the survivors rushing me anyway and enjoying the power trip. Even in solo queue you notice when a killer plays Freddy, you weren't by any perks, they use dream pallets and have had 1 hit by the time 4 gens popped. But they don't stop doing gens. Because they have no reason to.
This by the way comes from someone, who tries to play nice as killer. I follow the categorical imperative. I would not want to be tunneled, camped or slugged, so I avoid it. But that's why I know, that survivors still play as if you did. If the roles were reversed, it would still be the case. Most people care more about winning than they do about playing nice.
and also what is the point of be upset about survivors do Genrushs? IT IS LITTERALY THEIR ONLY TASK IN THE TRIAL
Do you not see the double standard here? The killer's only objective is to kill survivors. Yet we do get upset about how they do that. Gen rushing is efficient survivor gameplay, tunneling, camping and slugging are efficient killer gameplay. The truth is that the most efficient way to play this game minimise interaction. Interaction is the only fun part about DBD as far as I am concerned and when that gets reduced, naturally the game becomes less fun in the process. This is only amplified by the fact that you also lose against the strategies.
If you as killer wont be able to get them then yea the survivors might be to strong, but that I would set up as skill.
The argument is basically: "It's efficient and it works, so it's skillful." I don't disagree, necessarily because "skill" can follow different definitions but that is also true for a killer playing mean. It works and it's efficient. If they camp brainlessly, then they lose. So by the same logic, you'd need to consider that a form of skill too.
It is like that behaviour of the killers made the survivors become more and more rushing and that makes the killer even more relying on these stuff.
It's not such a simple causality. The more efficient killers play, the more efficient survivors need to play to keep up. And the more efficient survivors play, the more efficient the killer needs to play to keep up. It's a cycle. Both sides can for their opponent to adapt.
Cause if you wont have survivors who make you do use that stuff, do not raise them!
This is strongly connected to the point before. Both sides force their respective other. It's the problem of the chicken and the egg.
For slugging would be my idea to set a counter like these for camping on the hooks, which starts if two or more survivors got slugged. It slowly fills when two survivors got slugged and start to fill faster with any more survivor who got slugged.
There had been a PTB in which the devs tested a solution for slugging. The result was a resounding rejection. Any base kit mechanic can and will be exploited somehow. Anything that allows survivors to pick themselves up is highly abusable. There is also a perk called Unbreakable (teachable of William "Bill" Overbeck), which allows you to pick yourself up once per match. This used to be a meta perk before 6.1.0 when play styles and meta perks shifted.
Your suggestion has some heavy restrictions though, so it might be worth to test it on a PTB.
Why slug them in the first place, so none of them can do anything anymore? Is that not in favour of the killer to be able to do so?
When survivors last longer than a few seconds in chase, then heavy slugging doesn't work and I see little reason to give survivors a helping hand when they play that terrible.
Cause I am sure these who really do it even in a normal survivor group just use it as a excuse that they do it because of top tier survivors.
That may be true but it doesn't change the fact that these strategies lead to more wins than playing nice does. The "nicer" you play, the more you need to outclass the survivors you play against or you'll lose. So you actively make the match harder on yourself. We always consider the strategies as killers making the game easier on themselves, but this is just as true. And nobody defined when survivors and killers are equally good. We don't even have the necessary norms to define that. The devs would need to define skill balance for us to even make this argument valid. But they haven't.
The only thing we have to go by is a balance of results. Which arguably is not where many think it is, because the last kill rates we got were from 6.1.0. The time when survivors killed themselves on hook every other match. The time when Eruption and CoB + Overcharge were meta and also the time when survivors still used OTR for an anti tunnel perk.
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Uff it is a long answer but I will see to answer it properly.
To the first part of your message I can clearly say if I can get 36k bloodpoints out of a game where I played nice why do you think you will get much less by play fair? Sure I took with me some bloodpoint additional stuff but yet it would have been at least 20k without that, if not more. I think it will be better to take a try to see if you then maybe can get some hooks from the survivors after you realise the game for you is lost. Some will go along with it and some do not. But in my experience till now the most will do go along with that since they could get some more points as well.
On the part with the ego you are right. I also have stuff which challenge my pride and ego to its fullest. But I am someone who do not spill it all over someone who is not guilty for that. That is just me. If I have a bad round with survivors and the round would be lose I can accept that. There will be rounds where I will get them and enjoy it. I also can enjoy to lose a round since that means they were just to good for me to get. So why do I now have to camping, tunneling or slugging the hell out of the next group of survivors which are not these? If I am not good enough to get good survivors, then I have to get better it is just that simple, and if I do not get better I have to options either deal with it and still try to get better, or became a camper, tunneler and slugger, sure that will help me get more on the hook maybe, but yet I will not get any better and on top of that I make the survivors gonna hate the game, cause the likelyhood that the next killer is the same or even worse is more then 95% if not even more. So for me the solution is simple, just do not give anything more poison in that system and try to give the survivors a fair chance or play nice maybe and have a fun round, so they do not have to fear that every round will like that. That is my solution.
The part with the pallet Freddy I do not get. Did you say you just took no perks with you and go to a certain map which does no favours for you? Then sry, it is something you did on purpose? It means you ultimatively lead to the circumstances which made you camping tunneling and slugging? Or did I get it wrong here? Maybe I do not understand it right? But if you do limit yourself and begin to camp, tunnel or slug is not then even more troublesome, cause you yourself limited yourself and after you see that it works out for the favour of the survivors you start to play like that, even though you just lead to that situation? Please correct me if I am get it wrong, but it sounds like that to me. And yea they all do the Gens cause it is litteraly the only real task a survivor has. Either one of them can smell that you do not take perks with you or something they simply do not know that, and just do their task, and if you do not show them how you try to play and they do get it, it will be like that, so do they have to be mutants to sense that you play like that and if not you start camping, tunneling and slugging? Again if you mean it like that it is not the survivors fault that you start with that. Please tell me if I get you right and if not where I get you wrong okay? Ahh so it was a hypothetical example? Yea the survivors still would play like you are a serious killer cause the times a killer play more calm are so few that you can count it on one hand. And again since they do not can read your mind or smell that you are nicer they will rush. Especially if they are in their 20th round and you are the first who go calm on them, how could they knew that you now are calmer or nicer?
And yes it would be very good if a change in behaviour all together would lead to a more calm environment. I just show survivors who do not get that I am nice that I am nice by not tunnel them or even when I hit someone who just got of the hook to let the others heal him. Or if I play really nice I hit them down pick em up and bring them to a Gen. Cause I know that is very hard to see if a killer is nice or stuff. I just think it would be much better if these killers who are not good in compensate a lose try to learn it. And focus just of become better than start to use toxic behaviour on every round. (And I do mean these who does that every round. Those who just tunnel not intentionally or not the majority of the time are not meant)
That is no double standard sry. When you have the only task to do Gens and have no real control about how it is done, why is it the same when a killer start to use unfair tactics when he has much more options as the survivors? The survivors can do Gens only in one and the same style, while the killer, not even to mention that it is up to what killer you play, has much more options left. You as a survivor can not do Gens slowly you only can make them a bit faster. That is not the same. Sure it come up to the killer you play some are better for the trial and some maybe not, but all in all you can get better without these playstyle and even deal with gen rushs. While the survivors have no real option, they either can do Gens what their only task is, or not, what should they do? Also it sometimes is maybe not in the mind of the survivors to do it like that but sometimes it just goes as fast. But that showed that they did good or not? One maybe distract the killer and the rest do the Gens. Sometimes you get someone of the hook. And yet you say that they should stop Genrushing, when they do not have real control about how fast a Gen is done or over the other survivors and what they do? While you as killer get mad and start to play dirty, just because you followed this one survivor who successfully distracted you long enough? You have the chance to give up the hunt and go search for others. But if you start camping tunneling and slugging, that is not the same as to say but they do Genrushes. Sure the killers only task is to sacrifice the survivors, but how you do it is up to you as a killer, but how the Survivors do the Gens is not really up to them, since the Gens do work all the same in every trail, while the survivors do not. It is not the same. The survivors to not really brief the round they just do what they have to. And nothing more. And you as killer do what you have to and if you do it fair it get probs but if you do start to do it dirty, because the survivors do their ONLY task to fast as you can get them, that is not good. What should the survivors do better? Should they just look on Gens for 120seconds before start them? Should they just walk through the map for 5 minutes before do any Gens? You see the killer can directly start to hunt them and the survivors need to find Gens if you are lucky you find some and if you are good you can overcome the killer who approach you Gen with hiding. The killer on the other hand can see any Gen, he can take perks with to see if two or more work on the Gen. There are so many perks to reduce the Gen progression effectively, and yet you still need to camp, tunnel or slug then? (Not you in particular.) To say it is a double standard is simply not right. Cause all the stuff that a survivor can do a Gen faster is not stackable.
Maybe you can call camping and the other stuff skill, but I do not. Cause camping does not afford any skill whatsoever. Cause looke no matter if the survivor who come to save the day is healthy or not HE IS THE NEXT ON THE HOOK. That is no skill it is still the absence of it, cause if you only get a survivor by camp or tunnel him it is not skill it is just lazy. You know it work, so why use real skill instead if you can ruin the game for someone else, just to comfort yourself? Is it worth it? If so okay, go for it, but I do not think it is. Cause someday that maybe can destroy the game for to many people so the playercount drops and the game will die. Even I hope that will not happen. It is the combined skill when you as a survivor manage to do Gens without the killer get you, but you say it is the same skill when the killer just get someone because he do not search but wait for them to come? That is not the same really not. Skill is for a killer to get the survivors without any usage of that, the rest is just lazy. And that is done exactly because the killer have no skill in do the trail without that.
The rest of your post I answer another time!
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Very well said!
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I think you don't take maps, items, addons, swf and the killer being played into account.
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Haha just as I said, as soon as I play my very first survivor round now, there is one of these disgusting campers. He not only camped ANY SURVIVOR ON HOOK, he does it just as much away that you can not unhook yourself. Where in the world is that any skill?
By the way he played Trickster, if you have to use that stuff with Trickster you are extremly lost.
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I'll try to keep this a bit shorter.
I can clearly say if I can get 36k bloodpoints out of a game where I played nice why do you think you will get much less by play fair?
The reason is simply that you do not trigger the BP events that give you the most points as often or at all, if you lose. Hooking, chasing and killing survivors give a killer a lot of BP. If you lose, then the chances are that you got less hooks, had less time in the match and therefore couldn't chase as much and naturally didn't kill them all. You still get the other BP events like normal. 20k BP for a killer match is very little. There are some killers that easily get 30k-35k points a match, if they win. Most notably Blight. Nobody stops you from using BP offerings in that case either.
If I have a bad round with survivors and the round would be lose I can accept that.
That's great. Really. If you can do that, then more power to you. I try to keep calm myself too and remember that it's just a game. But we cannot take ourselves as the standard. Otherwise, we wouldn't have any kind of competitive environment in DBD. Being competitive means doing everything you can in order to win. This wouldn't be possible / necessary though, if we all just accepted to lose. Which would then mean, that both sides would stop trying as soon as things don't look well. If winning doesn't matter, why try?
If I am not good enough to get good survivors, then I have to get better it is just that simple, and if I do not get better I have to options either deal with it and still try to get better, or became a camper, tunneler and slugger, sure that will help me get more on the hook maybe, but yet I will not get any better and on top of that I make the survivors gonna hate the game, cause the likelyhood that the next killer is the same or even worse is more then 95% if not even more.
Again, this argument is flawed because we do not have a definition of what it means to play good (so it's subjective) and we do not have a definition for skill balance either. So one might think they play a lot better than whoever they play against and deserve to win even when the match doesn't go well. This could be the objective truth. After all DBD isn't a perfectly balanced game. Sometimes you win by playing the easy way rather than the hard way. Depending on your individual definition of what is and isn't skillful this means, that you could lose against people, who in comparison to you aren't good.
You also should not take responsibility for things that are completely unrelated to you.
The part with the pallet Freddy I do not get.
That was an example of what playing "nice" gets you. The survivors you go against don't play any different and the same happens when you do or don't tunnel. They have no reason to play nice just because you do. They will still play just like always with the difference that you may get a few extra teabags and some not so friendly tales about your family in the end game chat. Because for some reason this game has a problem with sore winners more than sore losers.
That is no double standard sry.
It is. The killer's only objective is to kill survivors. Why is it bad when they do that? Survivors could do the same we expect killers to do. Do one gen to 33%, then go to the next and repeat that until the gens are done. But that sounds ricidulous because you of course want gens done, so that you don't have to worry about them anymore. A tunneling killer follows the same logic. Why would they hook different survivors? The game doesn't tell you to do that and it's less efficient than tunneling. You also risk not finding that survivor again when you would need to. Survivors could also run around the map and do totems and loot chests. But they have no reason to do that, so they won't. Instead they focus on progressing the match as efficiently as possible. It's the equivalent of tunneling. Only we do not raise our fingers at survivors that play efficient. This is the double standard.
That is no skill it is still the absence of it, cause if you only get a survivor by camp or tunnel him it is not skill it is just lazy.
It's safe. Just as doing gens and nothing else. Or pre dropping pallets and holding Shift + W instead of looping. Both are extremely common in supposedly high MMR games and tournaments. But we equate these with skill because they work so well. So by that definition tunneling, camping and slugging are skill too because they follow the same logic. Anytime you use different norms but don't disclose that and pretend like it isn't the case, that is a double standard. And it happens with almost every argument against tunneling.
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Haha we may can talk about it in dm but it is a lot at the moment. I have some stuff which I go along with you and some where I do not. But for here it is to many to say haha
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Because it's lame to sweat your butt off chasing people through tons of interconnected safety while their teammates blow through an easy-to-complete objective.
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Than maybe the game is not the right for you? Because surprise that is what the survivors have to do. Imagine playing a game of chess and be mad the queen can move like she does and that is why you say nah now I can throw my pawns to destroy your tower. You basically say because they play how they have to, you start to become dirty, and that is okay, because they play how they have to so, why should I keep staying fair? XDD
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I never see camping whatever mm/level im playing at. Tunneling is common game but litterally see no camping. Hardly any Weskers too 👍
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You think this is something? You think this is bad?
Earlier today, I played against an Insidious camping Chucky.
The player took one good look at mini-Blight, and decided the best course of action was Insidious camping.
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Yea it is just too much. I really do not know really when I had a really good killer in a round for the last days now. They all just camp, tunnel or slug. And that with pure intention and so you can not unhook yourself. It really is so damn annoying, playing survivor at the moment is absolutley a waste of time, cause you do not have any good killers at all
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I hope you will keep it like that I have camping almost every game now. Slugging not so much and tunneling is like 60/40 of the time, maybe 70/30. If it is just one person they tunnel I would understand it, but when I have killers who tunnel most of the time they just tunnel everyone
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This typically is how I handle killer. In regards to playing nice or not. You tell me.
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None of us are talking about low mmr where survivors are new.
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Your view on the anti-camp mechanic is a lil off.
The anti-camp mechanic wasn't introduced to "prevent camping" it was created so that if camped you could unhook yourself and have a chance at greater gameplay.
"Camping" wasn't what was being changed, what was being changed is a survivor play experience that was get found, have one chase and hang on hook for 2mins of game time then game over. <- That's the specific scenario that was changed.
This was explained by the devs on multiple occasions. Camping is still possible but now as survivor you have a self reliant way to rejoin the game if face camped in the most egregious way.
A lot of players can't see the forest for the trees though and think just because there is a mechanic that offers a counter to the play experience of being "face camped" that somehow means defending a hook in invalid play and shouldn't be allowed at all. Which frankly isn't the case.
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Whatttttt?!?!?! Hardly no Weskers?
I must bring this up at the next Umbrella council meeting.....
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Because camping is iconic and it is a part of the dbd spirit.
I get that it’s annoying for people to go through but you all need to come to terms with it, it has been and will continue to be a part of the game.
Also, posts like these have come and gone so many times, literally a broken record, so I did not read your passionate essay.
Now go and play a basement bubba match or something.
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A lot if killers do really well to start with because mmr throws them against similar levels of survivors at first. Low level killers, low level survivors. The win streak bumps them up mmr really fast and they hit the wall HARD. They stop winning or making any progress at all in the match because they skyrockets up to high level survivors.
This feels bad for the killer and they have to turn toxic to compete. They still lose and even out below the super rough survivors and now everyone suffers because the toxic behavior against high level survivors doesn't feel good to lower level survivors
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Ah yes the old high mmr argument. Since mmr for survivors is based on escape , its pretty easy for survivors that don't know how to loop to get high mmr.First of all MMR dosn't work as it should be the majority of the time. Most swf squads are bad as solo q people aswell and if a killer keeps camping instead of learning how to chase they will never get better at it , so it might seems that survivors know how to loop when in reality they are just dropping pallets non stop. when i play survivor My killers have 2/3/4 k hours in game 80 percent of my matches and my teammates are absolute potatoes getting downed in not even 15 seconds, the 50 hours meg that somehow managed to get a medium high mmr by just crouching and opening the gates as soon as the gens are completed or the 100 hours dwight that just managed to go against a good killer just because MMR doesn't really work as intended. Somehow i see a lot of killers on this forum believing the all are top tier 1 percent mmr and actually beliving that the mmr system works perfectly. As i said, u can camp and tunnel as you like, u play as u like, but let's be real once in a while, tunneling and camping at 5 gens it' s not necessary most of the times, its just a guarantee win, it's an easy strategy and STREAMERS promote the playstyle making you think that's the only way u can win the game, that's why people do it, not because that's THE ONLY thing u can do.
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oh I would like to add that there are survivors with 2 k hours in the game that never learned how to loop because they play stealthy and they have been sitting on gens their whole life
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instead of infinite arguing, there is a simple solution
Record, like, 2-3 hours of you playing the game (all matches in a row) and show your gameplay, so all here can see the point and make their opinion
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Being a beginner, you're going to be at a very low MMR, and that's fine. However, you're committing to tactics that rapidly fall off in effectiveness the higher you rise in MMR - you're effectively hamstringing yourself and keeping your MMR low. You're keeping yourself at a level where going for 12-hook games can consistently work because the majority of people you face haven't stopped running into walls yet. And you know what, that's also fine. Basically admitting you know nothing and then trying to lecture people with more experience as Killer than you, less fine.
"If I can do it, so can you," isn't an argument, it's a fallacy.
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Even if they did have that in mind, it just did not work, since Killers just camp just in a distance where you can not unhook yourself at all. So what is the point you make when the killers who camp exactly knows how to avoid the unhook? Maybe it is you who kinda not see the forest out of all the trees?
And yea maybe the MMR is a thing to consider here I sure will have struggle too when my MMR is high, but for me it just is no reason to do that stuff and that is it. You all can play as you want, but still I think it is very much when you can not play a single round anymore without any killers do that stuff. It just destroyed the game and is way no fun. If you all have to win so badly that you use that stuff just do it, I never said you have to stop cause I am annoyed by it. I just ranted over it. And not only does the killers who obviously play like that come out to defend it with any reason they come in mind, no it just showed me, that no one at least a bit reconsider to think about it. No one who does it will stop it that is what you guys showed me now. And that is fine I will just do not try to say anything about it anymore since it is pointless.
I just try to play on even I think it will not be any fun anymore I will see if it someday will change, but till then have fun guys, do as you please but do not wonder, when no one grants you any GGs anymore okay? Cause it is no GG to do it all the time and it never will be.
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I said we aren't discussing gameplay at a new player level in here. We are focusing on mid+.
I also personally never camp unless EGC, and I only tunnel if it's a toxic player needing a quick exit. You're projecting in an attempt to make an argument which is weakening the point you're attempting to make since no one takes a projector seriously.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
all the exaples I made were based on medium high and high mmr.
-mmr doesn't work as intended. Play survivor and u will see your lobbies full of new players with 200 h while u have what u call "high mmr" and 3,5 k hours in the game.
-having high MMR do not equal skills, since is based on escapes and kills. Pretty self explenatory. As a consequence , having high mmr or being in high mmr dosn't make u face top comps swf 24/7, most of them are more or less experienced survivors or sometimes very bad. that just do gens fast
- survivors are not getting better ar looping. second chance perks nerfed, mft nerfed.
- survivors are only getting better at doing gens faster cause of the current meta and nerfed mft
- people camp because its effective at every mmr, and streamers promote the playstyle. its not a high mmr thing.
- i have 3,5 k hours in the game between killer and surv. I think i've played the game enough to know what i'm talking about.
- "Survivors are getting more and more powerful in chases " No they are not they were powerful in chase till a couple years ago when even the average survivor whas able to sustain a decent chase. Some maps are being reworked and they are smaller with many unsafe pallets, and other maps will probably reworked soon alon with the small buffs on ricovering from attacks ecc that killes got some time ago chases are way shorter than before.
- u are contradicting yourself saying "I also personally never camp unless EGC" " i'm talking about high mmr" "Camping is starting to become the only real effective strategy" proving that u don't need to camp at 5 gens to win a game, . and it also seems u are very confused about your mmr because u are saying 3 different things.
- killers have to learn how to drop chase and apply pressure on gens instead of chasing th first person for 90 second allowing suv to split on gens at the beginning of the game (when the killer is at his weakest moment).
- sometimes u have to camp or tunnel if your aim is to win later in the game and things are going bad, but it should not be your first move and choice at 5 gens
- I'm not projecting anything, i'm talking facts based on my experience having 3,5 k hours in the game playing since 2019 and good amount of wins on both sides. So yeah camping at 5 gens its not necessary, effective ,yes, but not necessary and no survivors are not getting stronger at looping.
- i'll say it again i'm talking based off what u call high mmr wich clearly u don't know how it works (or i sould say not work).
- 80 percent of killers in this forum think they have top tier 1 percent mmr and face swf 24/7
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Or there could be less interconnected safety so chasing is generally more viable.
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I like how you said "sry about the rant" in the 2nd part to just keep raging!
Now I'm not trolling, I do hear you, but that made me lol :)
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It did work, again you miss the point. It doesn't exist to prevent camping it exists to prevent your game experience as survivor being 1 chase and hang on hook.
Now there is a mechanic that lets you get back into the game on your own and have another chase and a new opportunity to escape from the killer. The onus is still on you the survivor to escape from the killer during that second chase.
Is it a perfect solution?.. no but it is an improvement because it affords the opportunity for more gameplay to the person camped on first hook. That's it purpose.
The rest of what you have here is rather irrelevant to the topic at hand and it is as you point out very much "a rant", which is why its lacking in any real merit.
Frankly like any game... if you're not having fun then its time to take a break or play something else, simple as that.
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