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Dbd has no reward system
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Even your mind gymnastics contradicts your point!Let's try and walk through this again.
Your original quote (to someone who was not me):
Funny that you don't see the contradiction in saying "It is a party game" continued with "Escape/kills highten your MMR".My original reply
There isn't. MMR is meant to match players of similar playstyle against each other, not just skill. If you min/max your role, expect to run into other people who do the same, if you bring kind of random perks and just play around you're supposed to get the same from others.That's still true. The MMR system accomplishes its goal. If you want to treat it as a fun, casual game you can, if you want to be ultra competitive, you can.
Let's go through some other things.
We talk about the definition of party games. I state
I see a wikipedia article with no sources for the phraseYou then quote the same wikipedia article for evidence.
You then say
And your response is making excuses and more mental gymnastics to justify it not being an acceptable definition? Dude...That's not what I said. I never said it wasn't an acceptable definition. I said that's not what other people meant when they said the phrase 'party game'. You have to address a person's point based on what they are talking about, you can't just substitute your own definition and change their argument.
Words, especially phrases, rarely have one single absolute definition. That's more true on a forum like this with users from around the world.
It has, you are wrong.It very much does not. I wish it did, but the devs have discussed the idea of wanting each player to have their own view of what they consider a win or loss.
Also, even if it didn't, I don't know how that would mean anything. I mean, many party games have win and lose conditions, so according to your logic this makes any game that has one not a party game?...I'm trying to move away from the term party game because it confuses the entire argument. Party games is a vague term that can mean different things because even if it means 'games generally played at parties', that going to shift from individual to induvial.
I was merely replying to your point about people adding win conditions to make a "party game" competitive, which is what lots of people have done with DbD.
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My brother in christ please take an extended break from the game, try out MK1, LoL, GG:Strive, Counter Strike, SF6, Starcraft 2, Apex Legends, Dota 2, and Valorant (just to get a decent cross sample), and then tell me again that DBD is a competitive game.
I genuinely hope that you have never played any genuinely competetive multiplayer games because the idea that DBD is anywhere close to as competetive as those games, for someone who understands what makes a game competetive, is frankly embarrassing. if you have no frame of reference however that's understandable. Please build that frame of reference
"But the game has a MMR system" yeah so does fall guys. That doesn't make it's competetive, that just means that it's a casual game that tries to prevent people who are casual (good) from playing against people who are casual (bad)
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My brother in the entity, explain to me how an high skill ceiling competitive PvP game is a "casual game".
For someone assuming that I don't have a frame or reference, is funny that you don't seem to know what a casual game is, or you won't be calling DbD one. Not that you need to (even if reading a little about game design theory would not hurt you), as I already explained exactly what a "party / casual game" is and why DbD is not one. But using your example, again: Fall Guys is a casual game because it has easy controls, a low skill entry point, and a low skill ceiling, like any casual / party game ever in existence for the last 30 years.
So yeah, DbD is a PvP game that "has a MMR system", you can maybe argue that it has easy controls (but then any FPS shooter would have, and if you had see any non gamer playing one like I have you would know that those people have a hard time pressing more than two buttons at the same time) but it definitely doesn't have either a low skill entry point, needing a lot of knowledge and game sense to be able to compete, and not a low skill ceiling as there is a lot of advanced techniques and mechanics to learn and dominate to be able to do real good at the game.
In other words: It is an high skill competitive PvP game by the book definition of it, which is just the contrary of what a party / casual game is.
By the way, I not only have played most of the games in your list, but I was there when the difference between "casual" and "hardcore" gaming started to be made online, when you probably didn't even had a controller in your hands yet. Not that I like assuming things about people or that it really change anyone's points, but as you did the same to me is free game, I guess.
Post edited by Batusalen on2 -
To avoid repeating myself, which would let you keep repeating yourself, I'm going to avoid your mental gymnastics about already established points that you are not really answering to and just answer to this:
I was merely replying to your point about people adding win conditions to make a "party game" competitive, which is what lots of people have done with DbD.
No, they didn't, it is the game who defined those win conditions.
For the rest, I refer to you to the other post I just made and also recommend you read and learn a little about game design theory, because obviously you people doesn't even know what differentiates a casual /party game from a "hardcore" / high skill ceiling one:
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lmao
i wouldn't be caught dead thinking dbd is similar in competetiveness to counter strike or any other of those games, and that's speaking as someone who's featured in vods of comp matches for some of those games and some others i didn't mention, in videos uploaded before DBD was a twinkle in BHVR's eye
thinking DBD is comp by design instead of a casual game with some fraction of the player base being sweaty about it, with no reference point, is one thing; thinking that it's comp while having played actual comp games is just self seriousness and lack of self awareness
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
For the rest, I refer to you to the other post I just made and also recommend you read and learn a little about game design theory, because obviously you people doesn't even know what differentiates a casual /party game from a "hardcore" / high skill ceiling one:On game design theory: earlier I posted a comment from a Dev.
I'll also avoid repeating myself, you call mental gymnastics, I'll say you aren't addressing the actual points, and just address your latest arguments. Your definition on skill ceilings as the difference between casual and serious games doesn't make sense. People can get insanely good at charades or Pictionary, but they are still casual games. A child can play chess relatively easily, but that doesn't mean it isn't a serious game. Those elements are true of all games that aren't random luck.
DbD isn't that hard to get into. The thing that makes it difficult is so much of the player base is experienced that its really hard to have a matchup of new players.
DbD is a casual game, that can easily be treated as a competitive / serious game, because of its focus on theme and very heavy inclusion of random elements. The competitive DbD scene has to make numerous changes to the game to have fair matches.
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Please remember to keep the discussion, and responses to others, civil & respectful. Thank you.
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Your definition on skill ceilings as the difference between casual and serious games doesn't make sense. People can get insanely good at charades or Pictionary, but they are still casual games [...]
But you don't need an high skill use of a pencil with a lot of game sense acquired by experience and knowing the game in depth to be able to compete at Pictionary and win, do you?
If you put an unranked child that just started playing chess against a Grandmaster and they play seriously, can we say that the child doesn't have any chances of compete?
That's the difference, and that's one of the reasons of why Pictionary is a casual / party game and chess is not. The point is not how much good you can get at the game, but how much skill and game sense is required to be considered good at the game above the minimum skill required to compete at it.
DbD is a casual game, that can easily be treated as a competitive / serious game
No, it is not. It is a competitive PvP game by nature and design that people play casually just to lose and come to this forums to complain how the game is getting too competitive and sweaty and you can't play it "just for fun" anymore when again, if you play it for the fun of it you won't care about winning or losing in the first place.
On game design theory: earlier I posted a comment from a Dev.
Devs keep saying it is a casual game because that was it's intention in the day (that, and because people like you that seems to need for DbD to be a "casual game" at least in title, even if it has nothing to do with one for the reasons already mentioned), just as Sakurai said that SSB was a "fighting party game". But just as what happened with DbD, the game ended up as a competitive PvP game like any other fighting game as that's the nature of it's design.
So, the sooner we start treating DbD as what it really is, the better.
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I agree, some kind of fun or interesting reward system would be nice to have. At this point the game is stale, and only picks up a bit of fun around events or interest around new killer launches (powers and perks) and the occasional survivor launch (perks). Otherwise it's just grinding BPs to buy stuff in the bloodweb that you'll never use half of. There's still stuff in the bloodweb, like fog bottles, broken keys, luck offering, and several map addons that are just a waste of points and build forever stacks on my characters.
Having something like monthly or six-week seasons that you could put in time towards to get something useful would would be both great and long overdue. You could work towards things like:
Converter Items: You can use this item to convert stacks of up to 100 items of your choosing into 50 more valuable items. Ex: Convert 100 white fog bottles into 50 random yellow addons. The conversion amounts decrease as you choose higher tier items. Ex: Convert a stack of 25 purple items into 8 random iri items.
Give and Take Items: For the next 10 trials you will not lose any items you take with you into a trial, but you cannot run offerings of any kind and are limited to three perks.
Boost Offerings: An offering you can use that has a 20% chance to give you a 3% boost to any of your non-movement actions, but only if an opponent runs a map offering. Boost speed does not stack with anything else, highest amount applies at any given time.
Dyes: You receive a pack of three one-use dyes that can change part of the color of any one of your clothes/armor items. All shirts/pants/linked outfits/weapons now have three dye slots allowing you to change a part of it. You can preview before use. The dye packs come with one bottle of bleach that when used strips all added dyes from an item and reverts it to it's default look. With an assortment of color options, this would add the ability to create far more unique looks while using existing game/engine colors, this would be low overhead after the creation of the system.
Rule Change Offering: An item that causes some random aspect of the trial to be different than usual. Such as you have Void event elements in the trial, or instead of hooks killers now get a Pyramid Head-like cage action, or when vaulting a window survivors now get instant Dredge-style teleported and thrown out of a nearby locker with a small temp hinderance to balance out any distance difference, etc. There's so much that can be done with this alone it's crazy.
Victory Wear: Reach a certain number of wins in the course of one month and you get a visual/audio change to your character to reflect this. For killlers it could be an ethereal glow to their weapon and any sounds they make on a special effect (ex: for Oni when he goes into fury the effect sounds like it's reaching back like an echo and then booming out across the map, like his power is reaching back to his ancestors and channeling it to now. For survivors this can be a set of protective gear pads that appear across their existing outfit and when a killer misses a hit on them they throw up a peace sign as they run away.
Honestly, even with how limited DBD is from a coding standpoint, there's lots to work with if you get creative.
As someone mentioned, I'm not a fan of how they moved the rankings to a specific page. Yeah, it's nice that you can see both survivor and killer info on the one page, but taking away something you had at a glance before to another page is annoying. I really don't like having to go into a different screen just to check my pips.
As far as the party game vs competitive pvp game, it's been both. When the game came out it was easily a party game, in that you could jump on, have a fairly low learning curve for either role, and run around having fun. Every new release of perks, maps, and killers has pushed the game further away from those roots. Over seven years later, massive amounts of perks, many maps/map variants, mechanics changes, bizarre perk overhauls, releasing things in a broken and/or overpowered state only to change or nerf it later, hundreds of streamers and thousands of videos showing how to make the best use of perks/builds/maps/etc., any far more than half of the players being pushed into absolute efficiency, the game pretty solidly falls closer to a competitive pvp game than party.
This in itself isn't necessarily a problem, but that the game was marketed as a party game in the beginning and BHVR seems inclined to still believe that, yet the players (either directly or indirectly) and BHVR itself with their changes has made this a game of max efficiency, it clearly has an identity crisis. There doesn't seem to be much baked into the game to support either or both views of it.
The learning curve is too steep and much of the playerbase is too competitive for someone (particularly a new player) to just jump in alone (seen in most of the solo queue) and expect to have fun. Even bringing friends for a SWF, most of the time it's like a group of four solos trying to act like a team and getting ran over (even by a noobish killer). On the other end, you have people looking for a competitive match, either alone or in a group, winding up either matches up with clueless teammates, inexperienced or lower skill opposition, and even if it winds up being a great balanced match (like finding a unicorn running your local Starbucks drive through) you get the same thing you get for any other trial: BPs, just in higher amounts (theoretically; loop a killer for five gens and you can depip), to buy more of the same stuff, of which half of it is useless junk.
It's been painfully slow, but I think based on some of the questions asked in the latest player survey, BHVR is finally picking up on some of these facts and considering changes. I really hope so. As it is, unless an event is on I just do dailies then go play something else. Even during events, I'll hammer out a tome page then have to wait a week before I can do anything else with it.
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