Endurance in endgame
So, I have a question. Bhvr, you've said it yourself that in endgame the Killer should be able to secure a kill, so things like DS and Off the Record deactivate.
But there is still that scenario where 2 healthy Survivors can now grab a Survivor for free (thanks to removing hook grabs), which has now basically no counterplay for the Killer, allowing all Survivors to run to the Exit with no risk at all. Add Borrowed Time and now you have 20 seconds to safely get to the Exit.
That situation doesn't sound like I am able to secure a kill in endgame unless I play a Killer who can naturally camp hooks.
In my opinion, Endurance should permanentely and completely deactivate as soon as the Exits are powered to prevent uncounterable situations for the Killer as he should be able to secure a Kill there, as you yourself had said.
Just had 3 Survivors dance out the Exit and I had to basically let them because of basekit BT.
Comments
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Not really an issue.
They don't deserve a free escape, that much is true. They need to perform a difficult action and hope you don't play it correctly.
You do not deserve a free kill for simply existing during the end game.
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Hook grabs shouldn‘t have been removed. It only encourages hook trades with no risk. I liked the mind game, before the grab that you had to do. Often I got grabed one mili second before I unhooked someone. Good times.
I‘m not a fan of perks deactivating in endgame. In my opinion they should be active for both sides, otherwise STBFL will be patched soon to not work in endgame. Both sides should be able to have an interesting endgame with chances.
The AFC feature is really annoying. If it wouldn‘t deactivate, endgame would already be a lose with no chances for killers. So I think they meant; they don’t want to take away all chances there.
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So you are just asking free kill after all.
DS and OTR are activating for long time. So there is really killer can not do so much. But BT is not like that. You can count and hit. You can bodyblock. You can go after other injured survivor etc.
But game should never reward killer with free kill.
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Well, try counting when there is an open Exit right beside the hook with 2 healthy Survivors who can coordinate an unhook.
You can't physically down the Survivor by the time they reach the Exit.
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But there should be counterplay. Also, who was talking about free kills? There should be a chance of securing a kill, no one mentioned free kills here.
You physically cannot get a kill if the Survivors coordinate and have 2 healthy Survivors do the unhook. They walk out with a free basekit BT
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I mean you already lost game when multiple survivors are alive at end game.
You failed to stop them open gates as well.
And you hooked your last down next to gates.
In this scenario getting kill need to be hard. Why we are punishing survivors for good play and rewarding killer for bad play?
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I'm ok with no hookgrabs during the game. But in Endgame.. hook grabs could come back.. or.. deactivate Endurance.
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Trade 1 with another 1 is already the risk...And STBFL exists.
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Getting to endgame doesn't automatically mean you've lost.. not sure where that always comes from.
Second, there might not be a hook in range, so you're forced to hook near the Exit. Also, the Survivor can literally run towards the Exit, making it impossible to reach a far hook.
I'm okay with it being hard getting a kill, but there is a difference between "hard" and "impossible".
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Yes but you are asking to deactive survivor mechanic. Survivors are already losing some perks at end game and that's good enough.
But you are just asking to get a free kill from your lose. If they remove base-kit BT, it will be guaranteed kill for unhooked survivor. How this is fair?
Like i said, if multiple survivors are alive at end game, it should be hard for killer, not for survivors. Because survivors have advantage here. There is no reason to reward killer.
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You as killer able to see Gates, mean you should hook far away from Gates. Hooking near a Gate is your fault.
Manage a hook trade is a huge advantage to killer. 1 hook Meg willing to trade hook with Dwight, but 2 hooks Clau will not trade hook. If Meg trades hook with Dwight, its another survivor that can not trade hook.
You as killer will always prefer survivors to take a risk to save 1 teammate. If things go correctly, you will get more than that 1 secured kill (I dont say you get more than 1 kill, because its possible that Jake already death, and only Meg, Dwight, Clau left), which can give you 2 or 3 kill.
I usually use Blood warden, Rancor, Remember Me, Noed..and most of the time I leave all 4 alive before the end game to let them taste my end game build. The most disappointing thing is 3 survivors just leave the one on hook.
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I mean when you want to deactivate perks etc from survivors in endgame. STBFL will be next in the patch notes, because it can be unfair. I don‘t want that perks from both sides deactivate during endgame.
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Getting to endgame doesn't automatically mean you've lost
It also doesn't automatically mean that you are owed a kill. If the survivors
1) Cleared all the gens
2) Opened the exit gates
3) Managed to do so with multiple survivors still alive
4) With at least one or more that still have hookstates to spare
5) And all of them manage to make it to the opened exit gate
At some point, you as killer simply lose the game. You are not owed a kill. If you didn't make one, you don't get one. You could still get one, but you will have to struggle for it.
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while I agree it shouldn't deactivate to be fair it does last ten seconds, granting total immunity for 44m. excluding bodyblocks.
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Not having Endurance is a free kill lmao that's literally exactly what you're asking for, at least own it.
There is already counter-play, you can almost always get a trade and often that snowballs. You simply don't enjoy putting thought or effort into counter-play.
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basically you:
failed to kill multiple survivors before end game
hooked a survivor next to a completed gate or
hooked a survivor next to a gate with no progress and apparently just let the survivors progress it
and still think that you are owed a kill
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The end game is no place for pity kills nor escapes. No one is entitled to anything just because they were there when all 5 gens got done.
If the survivors managed to coordinate a rescue and they all left, that is fair play on their part. Sometimes it doesn't work, someone might get left behind. I've seen killers turn a defeat into a victory with pre-nerf Remember Me or Blood Warden.
But you aren't owed that kill.
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Killer's don't deserve free kills either
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I say the same thing about hatch but people still think hatch needs to exist. If you killed the survivors before they finished the gens, why do you have to close the hatch, and then the survivor STILL gets a chance to go through the gates?
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Because that's actually fairer. The killer can still get a 4K with 0 hookstates after 5 gens are done. Without hatch/EGC, if there's a survivor dead at 5 gens, the other three are too.
Killers have an equivalent to the hatch in how the entire game is built. Survivors just get the hatch.
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Why do Killers think they deserve a pity Kill after losing 5 Gens?
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Just tunnel people out early and there are less people alive for end game saves if they reach that point of the game.
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The bias is astounding.
Your statement was "killer should not get a free kill in endgame because they lost the game" my response is "survivor should not get 4 second chances to escape because they also lost the game" You have to beat survivors 3 times in order to kill 4 of them. You have to beat them at the base game. Beat them to the hatch, and then beat them at the gate. Why do they get so many chance yet killers get 0?
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^this I don't use perks usually, but I do hook the 1st and second survivor I kill on the hook closest to the exit gates that way when egc those hooks are gone already. Just takes away the brainless(not an insult I'd you do that) play of hooking beside the exit gate after gates are powered.
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They nerfed DS/OTR endgame because survivors should not get a free escape, but killers shouldn't get free kills either endgame.
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You are conflating free kill with a chance to kill.
You shouldn't get a free Kill, but sometimes you do. You shouldn't get a free escape, but sometimes you do.
If you take away Hatch, the Survivor does not have a chance to escape.
Killers still have a good chance to get a Kill in the EGC.
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Okay...
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I still think DS and OTR should work in end game because you already get free escapes vs m1 killers by doing hit cooldown into BT -> bodyblock to exit gate.
What OTR and DS were accomplishing is allowing survivor to get 4 man out vs characters like bubba, trickster, huntress, infinity ev3 myer's, aka strong camping killers.
It is technically still possible to escape camping killer now on reliable basis but it is only possible with For the people+Buckle up. This makes you wonder. If FTP+Buckle is the best perks in end game, why did DS/OTR get nerfed in end game when that combo exists for end games? It seems one of dev went back on that DS/OTR change and brag back an even better combo for getting end game escapes. that is only anti-tunnel buff i'd like to see if they ever buff those two perks.
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You do realise that there's a gulf between 'no free kills' and 'getting a chance to win', right?
Killers still have plenty of chance to make kills at literally any point in the game, but just like the hatch isn't a guaranteed win, EGC doesn't guarantee a kill.
What you're arguing for here is the killer equivalent of saying 'hatch should always spawn near the last survivor'.
'Why do killers get 0?'
If you can't make any kills at any point in the entire game, or even put out enough pressure to make an EGC kill manageable, that's a you problem.
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The bias is astounding.So let's try and list all the differences before we jump to accusations.
1: The game grinds to a halt without the hatch in a way it doesn't if the killer has a hook close to the gates.
2: BHVR game perspective, each survivor is on their own. Even if you've killed 3 survivors, you haven't beaten the other.
3: Theme - last survivor in a horror movie has much more of a chance of escape than anyone else.
4: Killer perks. Going for an unhook always carries the possibility of a killer with NOED or other end game perks that can snow ball an escape into a 4k. Also certain killers can turn even a hook by the gate into a dangerous situation.
There's no equivalent to hatch play where the survivors somehow manage to revive their teammates.
5: Nothing forces the killer to hook close to the gate.
6: A better description than hatch is what happens when the killer has a survivor in chase after the hatch is closed. At that point the game is finished for the survivor with no chance to escape barring a massive killer mistake. This is the equivalent situation to a survivor being on hook near a 99ed gate, not the hatch being opened.
7: Hatch doesn't count as a full escape.
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They never said you're not going to find yourself in tricky situations that are tough to come back from. 3 survivors alive and healthy in endgame, and 1 survivor hooked right in front of an open exit gate is one of those situations.
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- The game already grinds to a halt BECAUSE of the hatch. Because the last 2-3 survivors will often hide hoping you to kill the other(s) so that they are the ones who get the hatch. Encouraging the survivors to actively play against each other rather than against the killer.
- Right, and those survivors lost the generator game, so again, why does the last survivor get 3 chances?
- Theme doesn't matter anymore as BHVR continues to "gamify" things between the anti-camp mechanic, basekit bt, and the fact that survivors are the true power role if you watch any SWF team like hens/ayrun and you'll see that they don't actually care about theme.
- Balancing the game around perks is bad
- What does this have to do with anything
- That is not actually true, most of the time the gates are on opposite ends of the map, and unless the survivor has already been spotted it is yet again another 50/50. So not only did you beat them at the game, but you won the 50/50 and now you need to win a second 50/50.
- Sure, but it still doesn't change that it is a terrible mechanic.
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Im sorry, but a few things seem to be at play here.
1: You hooked next to the gates. Opened or not, just try to avoid that.
2: The games are always different and such. This one happened to just not go your way. Just next.
3: No endurance during EGC would kill a LOT of perks, but the biggest one (for me) is DH. I'd rather not.
4: 2 healthy survivors got someone off hook and left. Probably wouldn't have happened if it was just one healthy survivor. That can be frustrating. Im sorry it happened. :(
Crogs said it pretty well with #2. This isnt something that happens to you often Im sure. Otherwise you're just not learning. Just go next :)
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- This really doesn't happen nearly as often as you try to pass it off.
- Why are you upset over the survivor getting 3 chances when the killer gets an endless supply of them?
- 'Survivors are the true power role!' No, they aren't. They never have been and never will be. 'Power role' does not mean 'Overpowered', 'Unbeatable' or 'Always wins'. The killer dictates the survivors' actions, not the other way around.
- So should we just be blind to how perks interact with the rest of the game? Because in that case, we shouldn't fix hook spawns because they're not an issue. After all, we can't incorporate Boil Over into our balancing.
- It is part of the complaint. The OP complains that if he hooks close to the gate, he has less opportunity to intervene if the survivor gets unhooked. Solution is to not hook by the gate.
- Where'd you pull the gates from? They're talking about the survivor being -in chase- after the hatch is closed. A survivor's not gonna open the gates while the killer is chasing them, no matter how far apart the gates are.
- It's a terrible mechanic -to you-. Because it may occasionally deny you one (1) kill. Everyone else understands the role the hatch plays in keeping the game fair and worth playing.
Also, if you were to remove hatch, kill rates would soar and most killers would need to be kneecapped and that's going to be much, much worse than occasionally having a survivor get out.
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Well I get the problem with the hook removal. But basekit BT is just necessary considering killers tend to camp in endgame to secure kills.
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I want hatch removal so the game can finally be balance around 5 Gens done every match.
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Without basekit endurance, any hook made at or near endgame means a guaranteed instant tunnel. You can facecamp the side of the hook, and hit then the instant they finish the unhooking animation.
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@Firellius covers this well, but I'll jump on.
1: The game grinds to a halt because people will try and win anyway they can, including boring the other side into afking. That was true before or after the hatch. As for survivors playing against each other, that's an intentional element of the game and a somewhat unavoidable one in elimination style games.
2: Again game perspective. If you want to say survivors lost, fine, you still have a 3k so you 'won'. The other side is the argument that each survivor is on their own and needs an opportunity to advance the game.
3:
Theme doesn't matter anymoreThis is profoundly wrong. BHVR isn't spending money on licenses for the fun of it. People deeply care about the theme of the game, that's why there is excitement for killer designs and map feel. It has changed over the years from a stealth horror to a dark comedy/thriller, but the theme is incredibly important. The idea that some players, who have put in the equivalent of the time spent by a child in the K-12 education system, are burned out is
A: Not at all surprising.
B: Irrelevant as their experience is so radically far outside the norm
C: Ignores that these people continue to play because of Twitch were the theme is one of the key reasons for the game's popularity
D: Not that different from horror fanatics who become somewhat immune to the very thing they are a fan of
E: Probably not even true as I've seen many of these huge accounts talk about the importance of theme and fun
The power role comment is bait to try and pull this thread into a totally different discussion.
4: Agree with the general statement, except that's not the issue here. This isn't like, say Reassurance before anti-camp, where the survivors have to guess ahead of time on killer strategy and hope someone not on hook has the right perk. Survivors don't start the game in the exit gate. The killer had the option of bringing a build to try and prevent them from getting to that spot or a build that can capitalize on that moment.
And even without a particular build the killer still doesn't have to hook by the gates. This situation only occurs if the survivors are on the cusp of escaping already. This gets to the next 2 points that there are situations (for survivor or killer) where the realistic answer to 'no counterplay' is that it had to happen earlier.
5: Because the killer never has to hook near the exit gate. The only situation this happens is if survivors have played the situation to the point that the killer doesn't have a farther viable option.
This would be like a survivor complaining that they went down on death hook right next to a hook and now they have no counterplay left. That's inevitable that there will come a point where the counterplay needed to happen earlier.
6: I specified that they were in chase and the hatch was closed.
Which, if anything, is being more generous to the killer here. The requirements for the OP scenario complaining about lack of counterplay requires the following
A: Downing the survivor near the exit gate so there are no real "viable" hook to carry them to
B: That survivor not already being on death hook
C: At least two other survivors being alive to attempt a rescue
D: The killer not having any end game perks/strategies that allow them to protect this situation.
I'd say that is like the idea of the killer chasing a survivor after the hatch is closed. The match is "decided" unless one side makes a tremendous error. The only difference being survivors are frequently put in that position for longer periods of time while it is much more rare for the killer and usually doesn't eat up as much gameplay.
7: It's a needed mechanic given the elimination nature of the game. It's possible there could be an alternate approach to the idea of how the 1 or 2 survivors left at the end of the game have an incentive to keep playing, but that's a question of implementation not of concept.
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I just have to mention that all of your arguments in this thread have been illogical so far- You say that one side shouldn't get a free kill while also saying that the other side should get a free escape which is straight favoritism which, as been demonstrated in controversies from multiple places, isn't a good standing in debates. And it's not free kills either because the killer already did the work to down + hook that survivor and it would get the message through to a lot of players to not be greedy during endgame because there's a decent amount of survivors who could've had 3 escapes in my games end up only getting 1 escape because they got greedy for the unhook. THAT is called giving free kills.
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This trade is coming with survivors are losing their perks at end game. But killer does not. Killer still can get a kill with STBFL for example.
Survivors have only base-kit BT at end game. If we are gonna deactivate it, then DS and OTR need to back old versions. Buy it or leave it.
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You say that one side shouldn't get a free kill while also saying that the other side should get a free escape which is straight favoritism
Not at all. The hatch is not a free escape. It requires three survivors to die and for the last remaining survivor to reach the hatch before the killer does.
And it's not free kills either because the killer already did the work to down + hook that survivor
Downs are effectively unavoidable. Chases can take a while, but no chase will last forever. Without the help of the right perks, breaking a chase is nearly impossible.
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What killer and what perks do you run?
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Try to find a good hook during endgame so camping is easier, somewhere in a corner works really well if you can pull it off.
But yeah, since removing hook grabs, you basically just have to learn to dance lol... Practice that body blocking and getting good at hitting before they can reach hook (or getting them to stun during the unhook animation).
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Talk about a meta shake up....
(btw - love your art!)
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If the survivor is hooked somewhat near an open exit gate, its a free escape... nothing the killer can do about it.
- I always tell my team to open the exit gate before unhooking me for that same reason.
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So, not only do you have multiple Survivors alive at the endgame but you also hooked near a gate and aren't pressuring them out.
Sounds like a cacophony of errors that shouldn't be rewarded.
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It works every time for me tho... but its still a free escape if my team know what they are doing, and the do (in most cases).
They split, so if the killer push one out, the other one unhooks me and we go for the safe exit. So there is really no choice for the killer than to camp the hook im on, and that goes as i previously explained. Im sure you already know this too.
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It’s not a free escape. They had to survive the entire match up to endgame and outsmart/evade the killer to escape the trial. If they’re coaxing the killer away from the hooked survivor that’s sort of a mistake on the killer’s part. It’s gonna depend on the killer of course but could just use Blood Warden to stall or simply not leave the hook to push other survivors out. With the gates open their time is ticking down anyway.
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Bloodwarden require a hook after the gates have been opened, and i think most survivors know that if the killer opens that gate before hooking, they should get out ASAP.
And it is a free escape, as i already stated :
If the survivor is hooked somewhat near an open exit gate, its a free escape... nothing the killer can do about it.
I always tell my team to open the exit gate before unhooking me for that same reason.
Especially after the grabbing have been removed, survivor takes a hit while im getting unhooked, now i bodyblock with endurance and get sprint boost -> everyone gets out.
Easy win at that pont.
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Yeah, it's called they hook trade against any competent Killer.
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