Why are you nerfing low tier killers by nerfing STBFL doubly.
Fine, decrease it to 4%, but why are you nerfing the killers that use it by making it lose stacks when the obsession takes any damage even from powers. Who does this really effect? All of the low tier killers that already need help.
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Low tier killers (Freddy, Trapper, Myers but also Doctor, Deathslinger, Clown, Wraith) don't get hurt by this since they all are M1 killers.
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Does it?
The only low tier killer this affects is Trapper, right? The other killers it affects are the hybrid special/basic types, so Demogorgon, Nemesis, Wesker, and Xenomorph kinda. The only one of those that isn't outright strong is Demogorgon, and he's hardly weak either.
I don't actually agree with this change, but I don't think it unfairly harms low tiers over high tiers.
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First of all, Slinger low tier???
Second of all, he gets hurt quite a bit from this change since breaking the chain purposefully on the obsession to save stacks was something used A LOT when using the perk
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Going to assume it was meant for heavy m2 killers by passing it
ever see those clips of a demogorgon who is obviously really bad with shred and could get an extremely easy m1 on the obession but insists on m2 to keep stacks
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I think having a perk with a strong effect that you can play around keeping is fine, 4% per stack is a fine nerf but losing stacks on obsession taking damage is just lame for what the perk gives you, if all damage effects can make you lose stacks then all damage effects should make you gain stacks (like it used to since all special attacks counted as basic attacks but didn't get any cooldown benefit)
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Lets look at the killers it potentially hurts to change the perk to work on all damage (ones that do damage with their power directly):
- Trapper (arguably)
- Hillbilly
- Nurse
- Huntress
- Bubba
- Pig
- Legion
- Plague
- Demogorgon
- Deathslinger
- Pyramid Head
- Blight
- Twins
- Trickster
- Nemesis
- Artist
- Wesker
- Knight
- Skull Merchant
- Xenomorph
- Chucky
Now lets remove the ones that don't actually use this perk or are top tier and aren't going to be impact by it:
- Pig
- Legion
- Demogorgon
- Deathslinger
- Pyramid Head
- Nemesis
- Knight
Are we really saying any of these killers needs a nerf?
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Watching Demogorgons play like that is painful, so glad I got STBFL off Demogorgon.
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No when I said "but also" I was referring to not low tier killers.
Deathslinger to make sure he sends down the obsession must still use his M1, so 2 stacks are lost regardless.
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Its very common for deathslinger to let the chain break on the obsession and then ignore them because now they are in deep wound and are delayed a bit. Sure you can down them if they body block, but a down and hook on them is going to be really good for 2 stacks.
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It shouldn't even be a thing in the first place, the whole thing about STFBL is it's strong if it reach full stack but can be countered by (smart) obsession taking hits, the fact that killers can bypass the counter by using M2 is so dumb.
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Just to point this out, all killers are impacted by this not just m2 killers. FTP and Plot twist both will cause the loss of stacks if the obsession uses them. In addition tho endurance hits wont so chasing the obsession with OTR or dead hard or hitting them off hook wont do anything but put them in deep wound. Really I feel like this is a nerf to Nemis Slingers and Demos using it but also only if they rely on the perk. I am concerned with promoting more tunnelling more off hook but I think we will need to see.
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The stack loss change doesn’t affect most of the lower tier killers. It does hurt Pig and Trapper, but we all know they should be buffed anyway, and luckily for us, Pig is on the roadmap for changes.
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I just find it hilarious that a strat when the killer has high stacks now will be for one survivor with plot twist to go with a buddy hidden somewhere and just spam plot twist over and over (the other survivor can recover them so plot twist doesn't actually fully get used) to eat up all of the killer's tokens.
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I think STBFL didn't need a nerf, regardless of which killers will actually be affected by it.
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My poor Piggy. RIP STBFL 2016~2024.
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The counter for m2 killers is just different. You get slower stacks but have an easier time at keeping them. The obsession also can make it so you still can't chase them as m2 since they can loop unsafe tiles that force the m1, which will hurt significantly more when you have a slower stack gain.
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Well it was fun perk while it lasted. To the forgotten abbys you go, cya.
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the obsession can for some reason step on a trap 4 times to make him lose all his stacks
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So STBFL is now an awful perk. Pretty good job so far
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This. It should lose stacks with "Special Attacks", not "Damaged by any means".
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Obsession will trap themselves in bear traps when Trapper is far away just so the killer loses stacks lol
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I mean, it sure does. High tier killer like Nurse, Blight or Spirit wont benefit from that perk much. But others like Doctor, Pig, Trapper, Clown or Freddy and others will feel the nerf. And those named killers are not exactly high tier, arent they?
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That's the thing, though, they literally won't?
Pig maybe, she does have a special attack, but the only nerf the others will notice (excepting Trapper who I acknowledged) is the slight nerf to the wipe speed. They won't notice the nerf to the stack loss that OP draws attention to, because they don't have a special attack to begin with.
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Do you realize how much time this would waste for survivors. Like the obsession needs to find an armed trap get trapped and freed to make the killer lose 2 stacks of STBFL. They also have to hope that the trapper doesnt have the purple coil to make them downed or bring a second survivor to free them. Like I will take that time sink as it will take another 16 seconds to heal assuming they want to try again or longer with a med kit. All for a perk they are either assuming I have or that I have enough stacks that they know I have it, either way is good for me.
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I just imagining plot twist shenanigans
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Again I feel like as a killer this goes back to my trapper thought. If the obsession wants to use plot twist to take 2 stacks away like thats their full perk except during end game. If they want to use it with a second person that is 16 seconds of time from two survivors where they are not doing gens or working on objectives in addition to the perk slot. Also I would have had to injure them at one point unless they use FTP which again is more time and perks. Like I know I am cool with it. The only time this might be a problem is end game with someone on hook but if thats the case damn they dedicated resources and respect.
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Or... here me out. The completely normal use of plot twist shouldn't also hit STBFL stacks.
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Not to mention, you get a notification on where they are while they are doing it.
So the to pull this off its going to take two survivors roughly a minute of gameplay. That's being generous to how far they have to run to be safe so the killer doesn't just hear the injured survivor.
If there was a perk that got tokens the exact same way as STBFL that had the description: 'upon gaining 8 stats, two survivors will gain the incapacitated status effect for one minute', killers would definitely run that perk.
That's not even taking into account the possibility of the killer finding the survivors who are doing this, increasing the time needed by gaining stacks, the perk slots wasted, the killer actually running this perk, there not being a more pressing need like rescuing a survivor from a hook, or if the obsession doesn't end up on the right people. Realistically it's much easier for the obsession to just body block the killer and then run to teammates for more body blocks heals if they wanted to do this.
Even if, hypothetically, all of the above was wrong during the PTB, its an incredibly simple fix on BHVR's part.
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Ill take the occasional plot twist since it means I dont need to worry about losing any to endurance but will still gain them from it.
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they also reduced it from 5% to 4% per stack. So they will still feel a nerf.
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I think it should be one or the other, not both.
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Well, yes, but that's not the nerf being called attention to in the original post. I was responding to highlighting the stack loss nerf, which only a handful of killers are even in a position to notice -- and of those, only one of them is actually low tier.
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All of them are. At a high level only nurse and blight are viable, and maybe spirit in some cases. But one ONE of these is low tier?
- Pig
- Legion
- Demogorgon
- Deathslinger
- Pyramid Head
- Nemesis
- Knight
Pig, legion, demo, deathslinger, nemesis, knight? Arguably PH maybe is the only one there that isn't "low tier" but that is only because he can hard tunnel super effectively. If he isn't playing scummy then he is also low tier.
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Feel like this might increase tunneling if the obsession is the unhooker. Now rather than chasing the obsession with M2 hits, ppl will ACTUALLY save them for last.
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Pyramid head does not need STBFL
if you play him with STBFL then you’re playing him wrong
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Great, but we are still nerfing pig and legion then?
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You also have SM since her drone can remove 1 health state
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If this list is meant to be a list of STBFL users, it's a little off the mark. Why is Legion on here? They have almost no use for STBFL, they injure almost exclusively with special attacks and shortening the cooldown after downing a survivor is of pretty limited value as well as leading to quite slow stack gain in the first place. Let's take them off the list before we continue, they don't really make any sense to be here.
We'll also call into question Knight and to a lesser extent Pig. Now, Knight's not actually all that low tier anyway, but more important for this list is that his M2 is not easy to mitigate stack loss with due to just... everything about how it works, it's much more potent as a vehicle to engineer M1s than it is a tool for actually damaging survivors. Pig is in a similar boat, but to be fair, that's just because her M2 is straight up bad rather than designed differently, so for the sake of argument we'll keep her.
With those two taken off, let's look at these killers.
Pig: Arguably not deserving to be on this list as I mentioned, but even assuming she's here, Pig's middle of the pack and not a low tier killer.
Demogorgon: Mid tier, not low tier.
Deathslinger: Again, mid tier, and also not that great at using STBFL anyway? Sure, there's the chain breaking trick, but he still has to basic attack the Obsession eventually.
Pyramid Head: Definitely a higher tier killer. Also kind of questionable to be on this list? I don't really play him though, so maybe good PHs can freely swap between M1 and M2.
Nemesis: Higher tier killer, gets reduced use from STBFL since his tentacle is better than an M1 in almost all scenarios.
So, our list here doesn't actually contain the one good STBFL user that is low tier - Trapper - and includes a bunch of killers that are not great users of the perk, not low tier killers, or both. The killers that actually use STBFL pretty well tend to not be low tier killers - aside from Trapper, killers like Myers, Clown, Ghostface, and Freddy don't actually have any special tricks for preventing stack loss reliably. Low tier killers don't use STBFL to begin with, mid tier killers do.
Also, not the point of the post, but more than just Nurse and Blight are viable. Even if we expand to just the A tier and assume everyone else is unsuable trash, that still leaves Spirit, Wesker, Plague, and a few others.
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Wait who is using STBFL on Legion
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This is a nerf for controller players
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who is using STBFL on legion. Like when are you m1ing to damage. Generally you dont til you down so the cooldown mean a hell of a lot less.
In addition as the pig you would need to be sniffing their bum to guarantee a hit with an m2. Like most pig will mostly ignore the obsession instead
The people this could hurt are nemi demo and deathslinger. And the any means change still ends up having the benefit of not removing stacks from endurance which is pretty nice. like yeah they are getting a little bit of a nerf in using it but it also evens the perk for all killers. I don't see an issue with the second change. and the first change just changes it back to before the 6.1 update so im not really salty with it.
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This is literally the only concern I would have. Personally I would have kept it at 5%, changed the saying to damage the obsession by any means but then if the obsession is alive when a non-obsession becomes unhooked they become the new obsession.(IE Michaël being obsessed with those he hasn't finished off yet.) this would keep the spirit of the perk and strength of the perk as long as you didn't tunnel. It would also have better synergy with dying light and play with your food.
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Name me one of those killers that can play against a team like hens and ayrun.
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Legion doesn’t really benefit much from STBFL if you use frenzy correctly so its not going to effect him.
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So, two things to say to that.
1: Assuming the killer player is comparably skilled, almost anyone on the roster. The only killers I'd say might not be good enough are Trapper in general, and Myers if he's running anything but Tombstone Piece.
2: Who cares? Hens and Ayrun and the other tournament-grade survivors are massive outliers, they are not at all a fair metric for judging whether a killer is low tier or not. "Can this killer beat the best of the best in the world for the survivor role" is a nothing question, especially when it's in a discussion about a game full of players who aren't even close to being the best of the best in the world for the killer role.
In summation: Very odd response with very little bearing on the conversation we've been having up until this point.
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The nerf to 4% might be fine for compensation with 2 stacks being base-kit, but removing its ability to dodge the loss of stacks? Beyond ridiculous. STBFL is a powerful perk but it's not game-breaking and I wouldn't consider it to be overpowered either.
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STBFL needed adjustments for the basekit changes, but now there is little nuance on the perk and it will be straight up bad without ways to prevent stack loss
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I think the disconnect here is your thinking average killer experience and reinami is thinking top killer experience. At the top those killers are low at best. When the survivors are very efficient your literally at the mercy of "will they mess up" instead of like nurse and blight whom allow you to force the survivors into whatever situation you want from the beginning. While I do not disagree with you on only mid tier killers with m2 powers using stbfl, It should be one or the other.
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I don't see why it is even being nerfed. I considered it a 'meh' perk at best since no good survivor team is going to easily let you get M1 hits and it takes half the game to get it to a state where it is even helpful.
Maybe it's being nerfed because people can camp with it at endgame? Idk. That's about all it was good for against a really good team. And a perk like forced hesitation just blows it out of the water when it comes to hook camping so it's not even that good to run for a camping/tunneling playstyle.
I'd say it will be pretty much dead once these changes go through, I use it on like 2-3 killers occasionally and now it will be 0.
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