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Only killers should be punished for forcing their objectives?
Comments
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If the other side is at your skill level but brings a loadout way stronger than yours, tunneling is necessary.
7 -
But when its a Nurse Spirit or Blight its always a 5k hour competitive playing 4 meta perk using killer so we should balance around that right?
10 -
Maybe, yes.
Of course, there's likely a difference in ideas there.
If you care enough about winning to tunnel but bring a bad build, idk.
5 -
Yeah that's pretty much the idea I was going for, thanks.
For what its worth, I agree with what you're saying as well.
4 -
Exactly. Don't tell me your struggling as killer when I'm getting 4 downs in 2:11 minutes in the Game map as Bubba. I don't feel at all "punished" for having 4 slugs bleedout.
If seen the same objective speed survivor side with Hens' team.
1 -
This is not just the build. Loadout is more than just the perks. It's the type of killer, type of survivor group, items, addons and offerings.
If the killer plays Freddy against a 4man that sends themselves to Ormond with 3 med kits (one syringe, one Styptic) and one bnp, all spreading on gens while the killer has brown addons, a BP offering and the build is : surge, Bbq, lethal, Stbfl, im certain, that despite the skill level (also a problematic term because what skill do we talk about) being equal, the killer will not be able to go for 6 hook stages before someone is out.
Caring to win is out of the question. We are playing a game. Of course we want to win. If we are talking bringing Nurse or Blight with quad slowdown every match, then yes. Tunneling is not necessary at all.
8 -
If you are playing a weak killer with a bad build with bad add-ons against a full meta squad...you should not expect to win.
4 -
But that means, that i cant try?
13 -
Tunneling was fine before the constantly map/perk/item/mechanic nerfs.
Now it sucks cause the individual survivor is so weak.
Try getting tunneled on corn maps or Nostromo, not fun.
The problem is that survivors can't be strong in the 1v1 because then killer is miserable but due to BHVR's refusal to enforce team play it just leads to a frustrating gameplay loop on the survivor-side, where tunneling has no guaranteed consequence against uncoordinated teams. If the game is going to remain as is then I think survivor should get buffed in the 1v1 but ONLY under the condition of being tunneled.
How they put that in I can't say. But they can start by removing grey area, being unhooked/self-unhook when the killer is within X meters and immediately entering chase should be considered tunneling.
3 -
You can, but I'm not sure why you would.
If being that competitive mattered, you wouldn't have chosen Freddy with bad addons and a bad build.
2 -
I chose Pig with brown addons and the same build for almost 2k hours now.
6 -
"While whole community crying about tunneling"
I don't see a reason to continue reading. This is a bad faith post and OP knows it.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Congratulations on queue up in one match with terrible survivors. What did you want to prove with this?
8 -
They play literally the same game, with same gen speed, same chases, same killers. If your argument is "oh they nowhere near to pub teams", well, killers too. And they probably wouldn't have won 5% of the matches without camping and tunneling.
If it's necessary on best-vs-best level, I will surprise you, but it also necessary on average-vs-average level. If both sides play to win, of course.
7 -
Tunneling is never necessary. Its just easy. Everyone here knows it.
4 -
Man you're opinion is clearly based on the fact you can only tunnel. See? If you wanna generalize things, I can too! You're bad at killer. You'll get better though. Maybe.
0 -
I would advise you to try out for scrims and then report back.
The gap between "good" pub teams and scrim teams is massive. The gap between scrims and comp is also big.
OhTofu runs a scrim program, I've participated before under a different name. It's a really fun experience and I'd highly recommend it.
5 -
In conclusion: Treat survivors as generators with no feelings and play to win in the fastest way you can, just as they do. Problem solved.
After all, they obviously don't care about the killer's feelings either.
15 -
Use noed I have been able to make many comebacks with it from bad games to 3-4K.
4 -
I think their point was the same is true for scrim and comp killers having a gap with average killers as well. If on an equal field of comp vs comp or scrim vs scrim the killers have to tunnel, then on an equal field of average vs average they would also have to tunnel. Because in both cases the skill level is equal.
So the question is, why would it be different when both teams are maybe not comp level, but still the same level?
7 -
The thing you seem to fail to realise is... What are survivors supposed to do besides gens?
There is nothing, besides unhooking/healing when possible.
Whereas as a killer, you have the option to tunnel, camp, slug, etc. You can progress the game without doing those things, but survivors? They can only do gens.
There is no reason to cleanse unlit totems. There is no reason to open chests.
0 -
Because there the balance of the game only tilts into the Survivors favor at the highest level.
At most other levels, it either leans towards the Killer due to perks or powers; or is relatively even.
I can almost guarantee that anyone who doesn't tunnel and is put up against a team of the same skill and the same mentality to them will be able to 2K consistently. I say almost because map RNG could change that in either direction.
5 -
And there is no reason to not down a survivor when I have the chance just because it was the last survivor I hooked, either. In fact, and as much as it hurts, getting rid of one survivor as soon as you can would ever be the most efficient thing a killer can do in a match, just as "gen rushing" would always be the most efficient thing survivors can do.
The point made in this post is why one thing is totally accepted by the community, and the other is not to the point of asking for bans to those that dare to go against the Survivor's Rulebook and do it.
But seeing that the first and most upvoted answer to that is "mah survivor's feelings matter" like I said: Just forget about what they think, play however you seem fit to win and let them cry in the chat after the match.
10 -
So killer aren't allowed to try to play as efficiently as possible because someone's feelings get hurt? Also, when survivors play in the most efficient way possible (especially SWF on comms) making it extremely difficult for a killer to secure at least one killer, that doesn't impact the killer's experience negatively in any way? We only care when survivors have a bad experience?
5 -
Killer can play however they want. But tunnelling should not be that strong and free. That's why we need 5 seconds DS back
7 -
But isn't that the current power dynamic with tunneling? Average survivors and killers might be even in power rn with tunneling, but if you take that away, thus nerfing killers as a whole, wouldn't it just favor survivors everywhere but low level play?
And what would happen to higher levels where it already favors survivors even with tunneling? They'd just get even stronger.
7 -
No?
People tunnel and raise their MMR until they start getting beat down by teams that are actually good, then they come crying for nerfs because tunneling carried them past their actual skill level.
It's possible to counter tunneling if you're good enough, but it takes a hell of a lot more skill to counter it than it does to perform it
7 -
If tunneling is the way to play, which considering its the most effective tactic, it is, then they're not "past their skill level" they're at their skill level. Unless survivors slamming gens also puts them "past their skill level" and they come crying for nerfs.
Also I really don't think we should talk about difficulty to counter vs preform when the main way survivors win is essentially "hold M1 on gen, hold W across map, run in a loop, drop pallet".
Post edited by MrPenguin on16 -
If on an equal field of comp vs comp or scrim vs scrim the killers have to tunnel, then on an equal field of average vs average they would also have to tunnel. Because in both cases the skill level is equal.DbD changes far more than a symmetrical game between skill levels. In a symmetrical game as you advance in skill levels, your opponents advance in the same way. DbD adds completely new things at upper levels to one side only: there is no killer equivalent to getting three other survivors, planning out a strategy, and using a map callout system for maximum efficiency.
The path to becoming a really good killer is more direct than the survivor route. Choose a killer and play them a ton. You'll never get truly great unless you are seeking out other super competitive players, but you can get quite far. As survivor, you have to play survivor a ton, but then also go and find three other people who've also played survivor a ton and work out being on a team.
2 -
Sure.
None of that changes what happens when you do get good or equal survivors.
4 -
it's not a comparison between what's getting tunneled but holy, people suddenly seem like they care about a killer's feelings now hahahaha while leaving them with 2 hook states and doing squats at the gate just to rub it in their face. bfr.
ftp buckle up users, map offerers all care about killers' feelings also. it's only those dirty nasty sweating non showering insensitive killer players that don't care about others. smh
12 -
Every survivor played the game way with the same perks, I almost never saw a good player before 6.1.0. The only upside to that meta was I could try without remorse, but I got bored going against the same 4 players every game. Every good player was beyond salty too, "wow your running something equivalent to my broken stuff while being better than me?" The rare comp teams were insufferable while running full meta during a very very strong meta. I was so tired of dbd by that point.
I don't even have it in me to play aggressively even if the meta got reverted to pre 6.1.0, seeing killers play like they have since 6.1.0 has made me dislike them more. Everyone's bad in this game but killers are the "bots" now.
4 -
"If your feelings are getting hurt over a video game you play online, I don't know what to tell you."
"I could not care less"
11 words later
"I get annoyed"
So it do bothers you?
On topic to that: What it the issue that you invest emotions into a video game? Are we in 1975 again or what? "Oh its just a game, you dont have to care, its not real life". Just because its a random person on the internet does not mean this wont leave marks on some people. Yea that guy in the traffic who yelled at my wife the other day was also only a "stranger" but it is still fair to say that she has every right to be upset.
YOU ARE taking responsiblity, also in a video game. These are your actions and since you are well aware that some (or many) people do get upset by that, it is your choice if you CARE or you DONT. In other words, the internet makes you annoymous, but your actions still count. Also in a video game.
5 -
So let me get this straight: if BHVR released a killer perk that starts a random survivor on the hook at the start of the match, and some absolutely terrible killer manages to get his behind whooped by a comp team, the comp team would need to be nerfed, not the perk?
0 -
I'm sorry but... what are you on about?
How'd we get to starting survivors on hooks ???
12 -
What?
It's just playing optimally, so that's their true skill level then, right?
0 -
Are you trying to compare a playstyle that the game is balanced around to an outrageous extreme example of a perk that basically wins the game for you?
Yeah it's fine because the survivors have a perk that completes 5 gens and opens the gate at the start of the match. It also stuns the killer for 60 seconds.
To borrow someone else words: "Friend, this is not the best Argumentation and you know it."
15 -
It's your argumentation that playing 'optimally' puts you at that skill level. Are you now saying that there's a limit to that? That there is some kind of restriction where it goes from being 'optimal' to 'it wins the game for you'?
3 -
You're trying to compare playstyles to perks. Give me a playstyle comparable in power and ease to the perk you gave and we can maybe talk.
and tunneling isn't it
12 -
Oh, it isn't?
Even when it can jump your MMR to such an extent that you can't play without it anymore?
2 -
You mean if you use the most optimal playstyle, or any playstyle for that matter, and then you stop to use a weaker one you will preform worse. Inconceivable.
Also that means you think tunneling is so strong that it is equivalent to starting survivors on the hook from the start of the match. At which point I don't think anyone can convince you.
10 -
If the devs don't try to balance the game, eventually they will have no killers. The killer roster in general, unless they are the top two (Nurse and Blight), do not have the tools to quickly end chases and start new chases quickly enough against competent survivors that know the matchups. Most of the roster is just not able to compete against 4 survivors who make sure to do gens before anything else. Heck, most survivors I face don't even bother healing. Just pound gens out and escape, as there is no real penalty for doing gens while injured and the killer just won't have enough time to sacrifice you before the gates are open UNLESS they are tunneling.
12 hooks vs 5 gens: in a game where the average time between hits is about 30-40 seconds against a good survivor. It isn't rocket science that the killer needs to tunnel if they want to slow the game down consistently.
12 -
Yes, it does put them past their skill level. If they've been in a 4-man running gen perks, they WILL hit a wall where their poor micro and macro catches up.
Same with Killer. An over-reliance on tunneling often causes Killers to develop their skills poorly. Bad micro and macro play catch up to them and good teams WILL slaughter you for that. Hence why we get generally average Killers complaining about Survivors being OP while experienced one's are kinda chill.
And thus your bias is revealed via your defensive nature. A gross misrepresentation of Survivor skill as a whole in response to a factually correct statement. Whether you like it or not, tunneling is easy and extremely effective; it's also much harder to counter than it is to perform.
5 -
But, that wall is their skill level. Why is it above? Their play got them this far, they're lacking in other areas so this is as far as they go. How are they above that?
Because better players will beat them? Yeah no duh. There's always a better player, so I guess everyone is boosted except for the best killer and 4 survivors in the world.
And thus your bias is revealed. A gross misrepresentation of killer and survivor skill. Whether you like it or not, survivor is much easier to play.
We both can play us vs them. Or whatever you're doing.
Trying to write someone off as a "killer main" will just get you labeled as a "survivor main".
13 -
How so? I feel I've represented it quite fairly. You were the one who initiated a whataboutism as a defense tactic. Now, seemingly further defensive, you've simply begun attempting to copy me.
Because your perks and playstyle CAN carry you to a certain point beyond your true skill level. If a Killer ran Eruption, CoB, Overcharge and something else during that meta; they would have been carried due to the nature of those perks. Same with Survivor, although more difficult because you need three other people.
5 -
Well lets reset because now you're just being overly aggressive and trying to label bias as a defense tactic. As far as I see.
Perks, sure I can give you that, but this isn't about perks is it? I don't know why this is the second time I have to remind someone of that. That's just a strawman.
But I don't know how you can come to the conclusion, that someone choosing to play in a certain way that the game fully allows and intends, somehow boost them above their skill level. They still need to execute their strategy and outplay their opponents. In this case they still need to find, chase, down, hook, and kill survivors. Meanwhile the survivors are doing their intended allowed playstyle of slamming gens and stalling the killers progress.
How well they can do these things is their skill level. Not how well they can be "nice".
Post edited by MrPenguin on10 -
Survivor is inherently easier to learn than killer because it is a more basic role with less mechanics. "Each killer has their own and unique power" as the loading tip says.
There really are not many ways to make killers feel strong without them just completely invalidating some of the game mechanics. A lot of survivors hate the more modern anti-loop killer designs because they have little counterplay against competent killer players who know the ins-and-outs of the them.
Look at Xenomorph for instance; you can just invalidate looping due to the ability to just tail whip survivors on reaction. Even with the ability to shut down loops, survivors can just hold W away from Xeno for a long time (and use turrets), resulting in a lot of time still wasted for the killer in chases.
Chucky basically gets a confirmed hit every 20 seconds with nearly no counterplay on the survivor's end. The problem is that it is 1 hit every 20 seconds and you are a 110% killer with no power until then (which can also result in a HUGE time waste if Chucky misses an attack).
The reason Blight and Nurse are strong is they have tools to invalidate game mechanics and mindgame potential in chases, strong mobility for both catching up to survivors and patrolling, and have little downsides for actually messing up when using their power.
2 -
I don't disagree with anything you said, and all this info I already knew (no offense intended). But I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in response to what I said. Unless you were just adding extra info/context?
The reason(s) why survivor is easier doesn't change that it is. It's why I que up as survivor when I'm not feeling the killer brain and mechanics tax.
Its not fundamentally bad or good, well at least not to me. It just is what it is.
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Well, the core issue here is that you posit yourself as the solitary arbiter for what does and does not fall within acceptable limits. What is 'simply playing optimal' and what is 'the game playing itself for you'.
And you then assert that tunnelling and survivors doing gens at all are comparable in any way.
But let's flip it around: if you assert that 'playing optimally' is the only way to assert your skill level, then the level you play at isn't unfairly decreased if tunnelling gets ripped out, no? Why do you deserve a compensatory nerf on the opposing side if a nerf to tunnelling just made you less skilled as a player?
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