Knock Out vs Solo Queue
Please fix perks like this that have absolutely zero effect vs swfs but completely annihilate solo queue teams. Third Seal is another one but at least the hex can be cleansed.
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I dislike any blindness causing perk/add on.
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Blindness is often underrated.
Knockout could still have a decent effect if the duration of blindness was tied to the other effects for 15 seconds. Would still allow for bursts of slugging for pressure, and prevent Background Player sprints to score an instant flashlight save, but wouldn't be a hopeless case for long-term slugs. Also, even with swf it can take a short time to describe where you are to your team mates, those first few seconds are actually easier with an aura than with voice chat, so it would still have some impact on swf while being less oppressive against solo.
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I think they're healthy for countering perks like Windows, Fogwise, etc., and could even use some buffs against those things.
But the night and day difference in normal gameplay when you're solo and can't see slugged/hooked teammates is ridiculous.
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Quarterly reminder that this perk is extremely unhealthy for the game in it's current state and is 99% of the time only used to be toxic to solo queue teams.
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No longer causes their auras to be hidden.
Now slows recovery and pickup speed by 70%. Works on basic and special attacks.
This makes it effect solo queue and swf equally, but keeps its intended purpose with slow down on slugs. This just moves the time waste away from finding your teammates and into being picked up instead.
Post edited by Blueberry on1 -
How is that toxic if we can see in your screen shot that he's picking someone up to hook them? He's not bleeding y'all out. How's that toxic?
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Surely you can see the problem with being stuck bleeding out in a corner as your solo queue teammates wander around Marco Polo style. As opposed to, vs swf, "yea im to the left of the water tower. Yep there you go."
And yes I do view killer players using a build that might as well be perkless vs swf but very specifically devastating to solo players as toxic.
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I think this is on the right track. Some of the numbers might need tweaking, and I would throw in the slower crawling speed debuff as well. Maybe keep the blindness part only the survivor that gets downed but not the other teammates.
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Well the issue with Blindness on just the guy on the ground is that again is easier for swf but not solos since they can call it out. Slower crawl speed is nice I guess but honestly doesn't feel like it would be much. I'd rather just have slower pick up from the ground.
Maybe a simpler change would just be like, slows recovery and pick up speed by 70%. Works on basic and special attacks. I'd rather keep it's aspect of what it's intended to do (getting picked up) rather than limiting what the survivor can do (which is less fun), IE slower crawl or preventing recovery entirely. I'll alter my previous post. This makes it effect swf and solos equally.
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Well what you're describing isn't what's shown in the picture.
Also, why are you or your teammates going down in a corner in the first place? If my teammate goes down in a corner, while annoying, that's my bad teammates fault, why would I be blaming the killer or the play style for that? I wouldn't be upset at the killer.
While of course I'd rather the perk be changed to effect both equally as I mentioned in my other post, the game is balanced around solo queue, not swf. "Toxic" isn't the right word here. "Strong" would be. Toxic implies intent behind the actions to ruin someones fun, not just choosing to play a strong build or play style they may find more enjoyable. They aren't doing it for the sole purpose of trying to bother people. I would also always rather be slugged. It's more advantageous to me, has more counter play, and I can quite literally do more on the ground than I can on the hook. The only reason to prefer being hooked over slugged is because the person wants to remove themselves from the game and that shouldn't be encouraged anyway. I don't count "slugging to let everyone bleed out on the ground" as a reason to hate slugging because that is realistically very, very, very rare. I play way more than the average person and I don't think I've seen that once in the last 200 games.
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Last time I played vs knockout was like two years ago vs a plague. Solo. We all just crawled into the main structure and picked each other up. Whenever anyone went down we just went to main and got picked up. It wasn't a big deal.
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70% would be insane when you consider stacking that with sloppy and caulrophobia. It would take longer than a gen to pick someone up.
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So on top of reworked maps being 60% dead zones, now I'm supposed to preemptively expect a perk that is only insanely strong vs solo queue, and thereby eliminate half the remaining loops from consideration during a chase. I don't find that to be a realistic expectation or a feasible strategy. "Sorry guys, I could only loop these 3 center tiles in case of Knock Out."
And no, being on the floor for 4 minutes because you can't see your team and they can't see you is not more interesting than being hooked. At least on hook your team has actionable information, and potential for perks to trigger. Choosing which grass texture to stare at doesn't make up for this.
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What would be your proposal then? If you go significantly lower then it's trash compared to the current version. We're trying not to nerf it, just make it equal against solo and swf.
Also they can recover most of their bar without being affected by either of those, so those two other perks would be doing basically nothing unless they did zero recovering and you were trying to pick them up from zero and the killer was on top of you..which if he is the other survivors should be on gens..so he's losing the game. So you're describing a scenario that makes the killer throw the game to achieve. Keep in mind this build scenario is also the killer bringing basically zero gen slow down since he's committing all his "slow down" to slugging/anti heal, so gen speeds themselves would be much faster than what you're currently facing.
Essentially "most" the pickup would be from recovery, not healing, if those other perks were active, so those aren't really relevant. I'd also argue that only 70% recovery slow down isn't significantly slower than the time you'd save from current Knockout with how long people spent looking around the map for you.
Post edited by Blueberry on1 -
"So on top of reworked maps being 60% dead zones"
They aren't. Most reworked maps are still survivor favored.
"now I'm supposed to preemptively expect a perk that is only insanely
strong vs solo queue, and thereby eliminate half the remaining loops
from consideration during a chase."Why would you need to expect it? You aren't playing any differently other than not running to a corner…which is usually a bad idea anyway regardless of the perk.
" I don't find that to be a realistic expectation or a feasible strategy.
"Sorry guys, I could only loop these 3 center tiles in case of Knock
Out." "So now we've gone from teammates going in a corner, to teammates at loops not in the center of the map? You are changing what your original point was now. So what you actually meant was not center loops, not corner of the map. If that's the case this isn't much of an issue to find people. Calling that the "corners" was hyperbolic. Saying you can only stay near the center map loops in case the killer is running Knockout is a hyperbolic statement as well. You know that's not necessary. Yes the perk affects solos more than swf, yes we'd both like it changed to affect each equally, but you don't need to exaggerate how intense going against the perk is.
"And no, being on the floor for 4 minutes because you can't see your team
and they can't see you is not more interesting than being hooked. At
least on hook your team has actionable information, and potential for
perks to trigger. Choosing which grass texture to stare at doesn't make
up for this."I was referencing slugged vs hooked, not slugged with Blindness vs hooked. Completely different points. Without Blindness active slugging is objectively more enjoyable than being hooked because there is literally nothing to do on hook other than try to remove yourself from the game while there are multiple things to do on the ground as well as perks that could factor in. Something is objectively more fun than nothing. I also don't know why you're arguing with me about Blindness when I've literally just posted a change to the perk removing Blindness from it…
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It would require testing either way. Just throwing out numbers, I would say 30% recovery speed would be balanced. That takes a normal survivor from 32 to 45 seconds to fully recover iirc.
Healing debuff is tricky to balance because of the potential for multiple effects to stack. I don't remember exactly how the healing speed formula works when combining multiple buffs and debuffs so I would need some help to see what the upper and lower possibilities would be when considering healing builds vs anti healing builds.
I would still include blindness and slower crawl speed for the downed survivor as it fits the perk thematically and would help counter some builds like power struggle.
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Yeah, and then the killer is out three gen/info perks and you win regardless.
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"Just throwing out numbers, I would say 30% recovery speed would be
balanced. That takes a normal survivor from 32 to 45 seconds to fully
recover iirc. "It would actually take it to 41.6 seconds. So that's 9.6 more seconds to recover. So you think the time Knockout added per survivor pick up was only nearly 10 seconds? Honestly now. Knockout in its current form even against swf where it's significantly less effective was adding way more than 10 seconds, and that's its worst case scenario nearly. I would say a 20 second increase, at bare minimum, would come close to what we're getting currently, and that's being generous, probably more.
"Healing debuff is tricky to balance because of the potential for
multiple effects to stack. I don't remember exactly how the healing
speed formula works when combining multiple buffs and debuffs so I would
need some help to see what the upper and lower possibilities would be
when considering healing builds vs anti healing builds. "Well my point here is that it wouldn't even need to be factored that much because the person on the ground is doing most the "healing" with recovery, not the survivor picking them up. The person recovering would get to 95% and just get tapped up. So all those anti healing perks are only affecting the slug, regardless of what changes we make here, for the final 5%. Basically insignificant. So other anti healing perks don't really matter for this topic on Knockout is my point essentially.
"I would still include blindness and slower crawl speed for the downed
survivor as it fits the perk thematically and would help counter some
builds like power struggle. "My issue here is adding this to the perk is gonna reduce how much recovery/heal slow down we get on the perk since these are extra features. The recovery/heal slow down matters a lot, while the Blindness just for that person and the crawl speed is nearly irrelevant. I don't want irrelevant features added that reduce the numbers on the actual relevant feature. If the killer is running this to slug he doesn't care about power struggle. Also if we're just talking thematics here, the word "Knockout" sounds extremely thematic with solely just recovering and being healed on the ground slowly because you've been hit so hard.
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Prove was nerfed when it saved less than 10 seconds. Medkits were nerfed when they saved less than 10 seconds. 40+ second recovery is a significant benefit to killer.
You think slugging is fun and map reworks favor survivors despite every one of them making maps smaller, with weaker loops and fewer pallets. And not a single map in the game has a higher than 50% survival rate. We're not going to agree any further here.
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"Prove was nerfed when it saved less than 10 seconds."
Small gen speed increases are significant because gen speeds are already ridiculously fast. For example, 5 seconds isn't a lot when something takes 3 minutes, but 5 seconds is a lot on something that takes 40. These are obviously random numbers, but my point is that is a bad example to compare apples to apples. Gens are already so fast that insignificant number changes become significant. This isn't the same however for what we're talking about.
"Medkits were nerfed when they saved less than 10 seconds."
Same example as gens. Previously heal speeds took less time than the hit took to make in the first place, that's unhealthy.
"40+ second recovery is a significant benefit to killer. "
But it's not a 40+ second recovery increase, that's disingenuous. It was already 32 seconds, you are talking about a 10+ second increase. Also killer time and survivor time are not equivalent. It's a 4v1. Every second a killer uses is 4 seconds given to survivors. So if you spend 5 seconds kicking a gen, you just gave 20 seconds of gen time to survivors, or 15 if you got someone hooked. It wouldn't be 5 for 5. So "10 seconds" added to survivor would need be 40 seconds since it's a 4v1, to be equivalent. 30 if we wanna be generous and assume you've got someone hooked or something.
It's also not "just 40+ seconds to killer" how much of that time did he spend getting the injure and then down in the first place? Probably more than 40 seconds for 2 hits. Survivor and killer time are not the same.
This is also ignoring the extra risk the killer takes with slugging since if he fails and you get picked up he gained nothing, no hook state. That's a high risk play.
"You think slugging is fun"
I think being slugged is objectively more fun than being hooked. If you think otherwise I'm open to you giving a counter argument. "Fun" is obviously subjective, the only reason I call it objective in this circumstance is because as said before, something is objectively more fun than nothing. There's nothing to do on the hook other than removing yourself, but there are things to do and plays to set up for on the ground.
"map reworks favor survivors despite every one of them making maps smaller, with weaker loops and fewer pallets."
You're conflating two different statements that are not the same.
I said most reworked maps are still survivor favored. I did not say they weren't made more killer favored. Those are not synonymous statements as you are using them. The reworked maps were mostly made better for killer, yes, but they are still more survivor favored. Those can both be true statements at the same time.
For example: I can take an overpowered perk, rework it to be less overpowered and it still be in fact overpowered. This is what happened with map reworks, generally speaking. The maps are better, yes, but still heavily flawed.
" And not a single map in the game has a higher than 50% survival rate. "
That actually is factually untrue. The data did not show that, you have wrong numbers. Also, the map data itself for that is at this point, extremely old and outdated.
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We warned them when they buffed it in 6.1.0 but they wouldn't listent. Now the only thing that can be done is showing them exactly what this perk does. It's a terrible perk design that destroys even SWFs.
However, I do agree with @Blueberry that using Knockout and playing for the full team slug is not toxic. If they made sure to bleed everyone out, then that is toxic indeed but using a perk and playing to get as much value as possible out of it is disregarding everyone else's fun at worst. They do not go out of their way to make you miserable, they merely use a perk that you don't like.
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should’ve had in unbreakable
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What did you think of my change idea to make it effect swf and solo equally but keep it as a time wasting slug perk?
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To be honest, I don't like the concept. I have nothing against a perk, that incentivises a killer to play more ambitious and go for multiple downs in a row like Infectious Fright. But a perk that promotes excessive slugging just for the sake of slugging isn't healthy in my opinion.
Also, 70% less healing speed on slugged survivors means they'll be on the ground 48+ seconds. That's more slowdown than Pop + Pain Res often give you and it's only 1 perk, that doesn't need a hook to activate. That's a bit much.
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We can tweak the percentage.
Why do you view a perk that promotes slugging as unhealthy? I see no difference between slugging or hooking in terms of health, just different play styles. I would always rather be slugged as it’s generally more advantageous to me for multiple reasons and it’s objectively more fun as there are multiple things you can do while slugged as well as perks potentially factoring in. There’s literally zero to do on the hook other than remove yourself from the game. So while fun is obviously subjective, something is objectively more fun than nothing. I think the “real” reason people hate slugging is because it prevents them from quitting the game and it hurts their egos. I think the whole “fun” thing is a scape goat for the real reason. It’s the same way people say they want slugging nerfed because of bleed outs which realistically are almost never happening, but trying to get it nerfed for “toxic” reasons is a lot easier than just saying the real reason.
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I would make a distinction between slugging to get an extra down and slugging until everyone is on the ground.
The latter is not in tune with the game's balancing. We had that discussion before but hooking actually takes a lot of time and though right now I would argue that it's actually too much and increases the need for slowdown perks, it is what the game is built and balanced around.
Excessive slugging has never been prevalent enough for the devs to properly balance it. There is not much of a protection against it and the protection that exists is kind of situational and doesn't work very well when a killer really commits to it. Unbreakable is only a one time use, so it hardly matters. Exponential is mostly an easy perk to get rid of as well and not very common. Slugging also prevents a good amount of survivor perks from activating. DS, We'll Make It, DH, Deliverance, Resurgence and Wicked for example will not activate a single time.
If it was more common for high tier killers to go for M1 downs, then Knockout would probably be a much more popular perk. The only thing that currently holds it back is that most M1 killers aren't great. However, we already see what some killers are capable of with it. Slugging Singularity has become a thing and slugging also synergises well with Doctor's power (especially on small maps). Let me play Doctor on The Game and I'll show you what "disgusting" actually means.
What makes it more insufferable than hooking in my opinion is that it takes you out of the game for longer without the threat of imminent death. So instead of worrying that your idiot team mate will not get you off the hook fast enough, you wait on the ground for a good 40 seconds, knowing you won't die (yet) but also being unable to actively participate in normal gameplay. To me, that's just very boring.
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