Is tunneling killing the game?
Comments
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I strongly disagree.
To convince me you need to share multiple games of killers that you struggle against 2 survivors left during a public match as an evidence of your statement lmao, when I say struggle, like you are flawless and you still have issues. I want to see it.
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I'm not talking about petty endgame chat. I'm talking about here, on the forum.
Tunneling isn't thrown around to refer to a killer just doing their objective. It's very specifically choosing to eliminate one survivor as quickly as possible, to the detriment of other objectives.
Genrushing involves survivors bringing everything they can to repair gens faster, to the detriment of their other objectives. They sacrifice altruism to focus on completing their objective as quickly as possible.
At no point did I say genrushing isn't real. What I said was that genrushing isn't competing with tunneling. Which it isn't. They aren't the same thing, because while one side is playing normally, the other side is playing as efficiently as possible.
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Tunneling isn't thrown around to refer to a killer just doing their objective. It's very specifically choosing to eliminate one survivor as quickly as possible, to the detriment of other objectives.
What 'other objectives'? The Killer's end goal is to kill the Survivors. Full stop. Everything else he does is simply to buy time to achieve this goal. He does not win by kicking gens, but kicking gens helps him win. He does not win by hooking Survivors, but hooking Survivors progresses him towards winning.
Your 'detriment to the other objectives/Survivors' is just made-up tripe to make it sound like you have a valid point.
If the Killer 'tunnels', and ends up with a 3-4K, then it was not a 'detriment', was it?
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They’ve added so many perks and baseline elements to combat tunneling. At this point it’s up to survivors to play better. Also, your idea of making it impossible to down an unhooked survivor until another is hooked would just be abused by survivors. Look at the built in BT, do survivors use it to make it safely away from the hook? No, they use it to bodyblock for other survivors because they know they are immune to being downed.
Again it comes down to better play from survivors. You can easily punish a killer for tunneling. Because tunneling typically involves camping too.
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It isn't made-up tripe. Your primary objective is to prevent the survivors from escaping by killing them. Your secondary objective is to defend your generators.
If the killer tunnels, and gets naught but a 1k, was it not a detriment? Part of tunneling is knowing who to target. If you target the wrong person, you've just cost yourself the match. The only thing that makes tunneling efficient is the payoff of having permanent slowdown.
Post edited by BoxGhost on1 -
Yeah. Imagine an SWF player unhooked, then just following a stealth Killer like Ghostface, Spirit, or Myers around. Or reporting on where Trapper/Hag is placing traps.
And the Killer can do nothing to stop this.
It's hilarious how Survivors always seem to think "I hate tunneling! How about we add this horribly abusable mechanic to 'fix' it?"
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Defending the generators is just to buy time to kill. It's not an 'objective' of the Killers.
If the killer tunnels, and gets naught but a 1k, was it not a detriment?
So, because some matches can end badly; Tunneling is 100% bad to do and needs garbage mechanics to 'fix' it to make Survivors happy?
Post edited by BoxGhost on3 -
For every survivor that wants a horrible abusable mechanic to alleviate tunneling, there's a killer who wants an equally horrible and abusable mechanic to deal with those pesky SWFs.
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And both are wrong in what they want. Your point?
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It is an objective of the killer. As much as preventing hook states is an objective of the survivors. I've played many a game where the killer has ignored the other three survivors sitting on gens while they've just been looped around shack for the last minute. They lost because they didn't defend their generators.
Post edited by BoxGhost on0 -
I understand the point of view of abusing the system, what if the moment that a survivor:
- Touch a gen
- Start healing itself (not being heal by another survivor, I think it's already punishing to have two persons on healing)
- Is fully healed
- Another survivor got hook
He is not immune anymore. If the killer just follow the survivor, he is loosing his time by it's own fault of being silly and it's not about luck or not in that situation. What do you think about that?
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Also If you want to talk about perks, you could at least enumerate them, explain yourself, because just saying that "They’ve added so many perks and baseline elements to combat tunneling" is not a valid argument for me.
The following perks that you can equip more than one at the same time and the buff of gen kicking and the fact that it takes more time now to finish a gen than back in the days, I am not sure at 100% but I think it was 80 seconds before, now it's 90 seconds:
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch
- Deadlock
- Eruption
- Grim Embrace
- Hex: Ruin
- Oppression
- Overcharge
- Pop Goes the Weasel
- Scourge hook: Pain Resonance
- Surge
- Thrilling Tremors
- Thanatophobia
- Hex: Pentimento
- Call of Brine
In exchange what do survivor have to fight against tunneling? They have:
- Decision Strike
- Buckle up + For the people combo (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing gens)
- Sometimes they can use Power Struggle if they die really close to a palette
- Flashlight + Background player (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing a gens, need to succeed and if the killer does not have lightborn)
- Sabotaging hook (that require a team mate around, so -1 person less doing gens, need to succeed)
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Again, it's not about winning or loosing, it's about fun.
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I'm not trying to implement anything. WTH did you get that idea?
Post edited by BoxGhost on1 -
His account name is I_Tunnel.... like... Do you think he sees further than that?
Post edited by BoxGhost on5 -
My point is that neither will ever get what they want. No matter how loudly they demand it, there is just no way to implement mechanics to counter tunneling and swf without punishing those players for it. Bhvr have already said in the past that they don't want to punish playstyles.
Look at the anti-camping mechanic. The primary purpose of it is to prevent face-camping, and ensure that the person hooked gets to play the game. Camping, as a tactic, is still possible and has come out relatively unaffected.
Basekit BT didn't even arise to alleviate tunneling. It was introduced to prevent hook farming. Survivors using it to bodyblock just end up back on hook anyway, since they've just made it clear that they aren't interested in getting away from the killer.
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Your constant falling back on this argument seems to suggest you think it's possible a mechanic could be implented to fix tunneling.
Tunneling is 100% bad to do and needs garbage mechanics to 'fix' it to make Survivors happy?
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I don't even know how you thought that was a serious comment.
I was pointing out YOUR post, where you said 'Tunneling is a detriment' because of the few times it does badly.
I have never said tunneling should be removed. It's a valid tactic. JFC.
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And I had never made a single remark about implementing a mechanic to alleviate tunneling in the first place. So maybe you ought to ask yourself why you even mentioned it in the first place.
To be clear, tunneling is detrimental. The only reason people do it is to create permanent slowdown. One in hook, one in chase, one unhooking. No-one on gens.
Tunneling isn't efficient. It only becomes efficient once someone's dead. There are three other survivors who will happily bust out gens while you waste your time getting mindgamed at the fifth safe pallet in a row.
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It always devolves to SWF being the baseline. Most of you aren't even arguing on the correct line. Tunneling sucks, and is terrible for game health, regardless what Killers think. Survivors are Rude to killers any chance they get, and this simply adds to the reasoning of tunnel.
Both sides are at fault, and both sides have bad apple players. Its inevitable. But we'll continue to go back and forth. Enjoy!
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Idk for the game but for that match it does for me. Like if you tunnel someone out at 5 gens, then you want to play chill and go for hooks… I’m not interested in a non competitive match. I’m moving on. Sadly a lot of killers will bleed you out for this because they can’t play with their food.
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It's not killing the game, but I think it does affected an important part of the playerbase - the newer players.
People who have been playing this game for time may or may not be bothered, because they know it's not always the case. Doesn't make it any less frustrating, but it's something they've grown accustomed to.
New players wanting to try the game out, only to be tunnelled because a Killer identified them as the weakest player, is going to become rather frustrated if their first experiences revolve around this.
I feel that excessive tunnelling at the lower end where newer players are just wanting to learn the game is the most harmful, because it actively reduces those coming in. If some solution was made for tunnelling which drastically reduces it, I believe way more players would stay.
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2dead2alive means 2survivors escaped and 2dead, clear enough?
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What do you guys think about that solution against tunneling: the moment a survivor is unhook, he is immune to be down until:
- He touch a gen.
- Start healing itself (not being heal by another survivor, I think it's already punishing to have two persons on healing and they could troll each others).
- Is fully healed
- Another survivor got hook?
During the whole immunity, the survivor cannot have collision against the killer, cannot drop palettes and cannot use flashlights...
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No, because then he can follow the Killer around and report on his actions with discord, if he's in a group. And the Killer would not be able to prevent it at all.
Plus, this allows him to get a free health state as long as he does not heal himself & only has another Survivor heal him.
Survivors already have 2 free basekit perks due to their whining; They don't deserve functional immunity & free healing on top of that.
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I think it'd have to be the full list of Conspicuous Actions, it wouldn't be fair for a survivor to - for example - be able to cleanse a hex totem without the killer being able to stop them. It'd also need to disable in endgame like other anti-tunnel protections.
Other than that, it's an extreme measure but I don't think it'd harm the game in any meaningful way. The only real potential abuse is a SWF using them as an info-reporter, but there's not actually anything stopping them from doing that right now and that's one survivor off gens basically permanently. A good trade, in my opinion.
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Ok what if there is also a cooldown? after the time of a gen?
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ok what if we had the moment he touch a hex totem?
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The current list of Conspicuous Actions does fine, I think! Just make it disable on any of those, I don't think any of them would be unfair here. That list, plus being fully healed or another survivor being hooked, would work.
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Immunity to hit does not allow a bodyblock, Mr. "I need to tunnel because i'm not good at the game."
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No tunneling, camping, or slugging?
So basically killer just couldn't play the game?
Now I understand the fact in those tournaments it is made to be able to have an almost enjoyable game and focus on points and stuff, but that in a normal game just isn't a thing.
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What do gen perks have to do with tunneling? If a killer is utilizing numerous gen perks, they probably aren't tunneling. Also, gens still don't take long to complete. A decent runner should be able to run a killer long enough for a couple of gens to pop. As for the things they have added to combat tunneling, you have perks like Borrowed Time, D strike, Second Wind, Dead Hard, Windows, Sprint Burst, Off the Record, among others. They've also added in a built in Borrowed Time type mechanic, hook camping gauge, among others.
Now, this is a game full of RNG, so sometimes the killer you are facing or the map you are on or the layout of the map makes it hard or impossible to run the killer as long as you'd like. But that goes both ways, the killer can be equally handcuffed by the map or the layout randomly generated on a map.
Any system where a survivor is immune until another survivor is hooked is not going to work because they will abuse it. You can add qualifiers to it or gameplay elements that disable it but again, just look at what they already do. You can have a survivor run to a hook and unhook someone and that rescued survivor will body block you because they know they are invincible. And then if you down them they'll complain that you tunneled.
It all comes back to survivors playing the game well. It's incredibly easy to punish a camping tunneling killer. But too many survivors would rather swarm the hook and try to entice the killer to chase. You aren't going to be able to prevent a killer from tunneling if the killer is set on doing it. All you can do is punish by rushing through gens.
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I've never really understood the argument about survivors who bodyblock complaining if you down and hook them. Who cares? They're in the wrong in this scenario, if the hypothetical system we devise doesn't allow survivors to abuse it because they become vulnerable again... good, that means it's working, it doesn't matter if that player complains about it.
Also, may I ask, why are perks like Windows, Dead Hard, Second Wind, and Sprint Burst on your list of perks there? Those aren't anti-tunnel perks, they're just perks you might also be able to use while you're being tunnelled to varying effect. Even the others aren't that convincing; Decisive Strike is too weak to do its job, Borrowed Time is something you have to rely on your teammates bringing, and OTR is okay but doesn't really work nearly as well if the killer hits you right away... which if they want to tunnel, they will, after hearing you aren't making injured noises.
The fact is, tunnelling is very easy to do and very difficult to react to beyond just rushing gens and getting out, which is pretty obviously not an ideal situation in the least. Trying to come up with a way of addressing it and fixing the balance without too much collateral damage is totally fair game, there's good reason to try.
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and what would that system be? Because the one presented is not any good. Obviously survivors who body block off the hook and then complain about tunneling are in the wrong but the point is lots of survivors have that mentality.
those perks help against tunneling because they provide distance and lots of information. Also how is knocking out gens not an ideal solution to tunneling? A tunneling killer getting 15k points max and at most two kills is a great way to make them pay for camping and tunneling.
survivors need to play better.
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It's not an ideal solution because nothing actually changes?
The killer still gets to leverage this unbalanced tactic to gain a massive advantage without much effort, the survivor being tunnelled still gets targeted out of the game with very little agency in reacting to it, and the rest of the survivor team are still put in a massively disadvantageous 3v1 for the rest of the game.
"Play better" is absolutely a fair thing to say in some situations, but not here. Why should the survivor players have to put in ten times the effort to try and punish tunnelling, compared to how much effort the killer has to put in to tunnel someone out? Even when they do sweat their butts off trying, they're not even guaranteed to achieve anything, since they're running uphill against an unbalanced gap in the game's mechanics.
It's not fair to tell killers "play better" against things like old Dead Hard, or current For the People + Buckle Up, or flat out genrushing with stacked toolboxes and dedicated builds. Those things are (or were) actually unbalanced. Tunnelling is the same way.
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Tunneling has never been a rare occurrence, I've seen others get tunneled, I've been tunneled, but I usually get some sort of respite in between those matches and its easy to shake off the bad experience and move on. The good and neutral matches outweigh the bad.... usually.
A few days ago, I had probably THE funnest day in solo-q I will ever have, and I didn't escape a single match. I was farming "Scenic Moris". I sported a couple different Mori themed names and let killers Mori me. Out of like 16 matches only 2 killers didn't bring me a Mori, the 14 who did made it really fun. None of them tunneled me out for the mori, they all played normally, and when they went to mori me they walked around the map to look for a cool location, checked out all the angles and the lighting and I got some really cool screenshots from it.
The next day, after I had my fun and changed my name back, was the WORST solo-q experience I've ever had. Over the course of the day I played about 27+ matches. I was hard tunneled, from the start of the match mind you, for 23 matches in a row. I died every game as the only survivor with hooks. After the second match where I was farmed off hook by a Nea, I decided to put on an Anti-Tunnel build, and it became NECESSARY for me to stay in the game long enough to see any gens get completed. OTR, DS, Boil Over, Flip Flop, was my go to.
In those 23 matches I saw every single reaction you could possible see from my teammates.
- I had teammates farm me off hook while they were mid chase with the killer
- I had teams ignore me completely and just do gens
- I had teams drop everything to hinder the killer at every chance possible
- I had teams just stand there and watch me get tunneled, 0 gen progress, just watched like it was their favorite prime time tv show.
At one point on Lery's I even had a Yui 3-man SWF go "Seal Team 6" on a Death Slinger to help me. And I mean it when I say they were FLAWLESS with it. As soon as they realized what was going on, they methodically cycled out to take hits for me in places where I would have gone down or gave me the opportunity to make great distance. Got 2 flashlight saves, and between Boil Over and body blocking I even wiggled free. Even with them constantly having my back they still managed to get 4 gens done before I was finally sacrificed. Unfortunately I never got to thank them as by that point I was so drained I just went next and didn't even think to stick around until I had already left.
I frankly don't care if it's "The Meta", it is the most soul sucking experience ever and I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone. I have never wanted to hold left click in front of a gen more than that moment. My idea of fun in dbd isn't winning, its simply having a match where I actually get to play and leave feeling like I contributed to something. That is the minimum I want, and I don't think that's unreasonable. That being said, someones fun being entirely dependent on the opposing role allowing them to play the game is not a good principal to build the game on. I won't even pretent to know how to fix this, because I have no clue. But having other players and even devs chop up the entire conversation to "Get good" or "Theres no problem here" is insulting.
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it’s only a “massive advantage” if the survivors make it a massive advantage. If a killer has one or two gens left to defend after tunneling someone out of the game then there is no massive advantage.
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How do you propose the survivors prevent it?
The only real variable is how long the first chase lasts. The entire point of tunnelling is that every subsequent chase is significantly easier due to the survivor being injured, close to you, and more than likely in an area where resources have already been used. Dedicated anti-tunnel perks tend to be too weak to do their job or otherwise have some quirk preventing them from working properly, and even perks that aren't anti-tunnel tend to be fairly inconsistent in this context. Sure, sometimes you can give a tunnelling killer the slip if you get lucky, but that's luck, not repeatable skill.
Plus, I do have to ask the question again: Why should one player have to put in massive effort and tons of thought/preparation to counter something that requires extremely little effort and zero preparation from their opponent? Isn't that inherently unbalanced?
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How do they prevent what? Tunneling? You can’t prevent a killer from tunneling. All you can do is punish them for it.
It’s not unbalanced because you can punish the killer for it 👍
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Again. How.
How does the survivor being tunnelled punish the killer for it? Their tools for doing so are very weak, if those tools were strong enough to reliably punish killers we wouldn't see nearly as much tunnelling.
How do the other survivors punish the killer for tunnelling? By rushing the gens and getting out? I think we have to acknowledge that nobody really enjoys games where one player is targeted out ASAP and the others have nothing to do but hold M1. That's even assuming they can rush the gens, considering the survivor being tunnelled needs outside help to stand much of a chance unless they get very lucky or they're exceptionally skilled.
And after those two questions, I once again bring you to the core question, and I do want an answer: Is it fair and balanced for one side to put in very little effort or thought, and force the other side to put in ten times as much effort and thought to maybe counter them? Is that an acceptable level of balance?
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There are quite a few strange people who claim both, saying that killers who tunnel and lose are pathetic, but also saying that the tunnel ruined the survivors and caused them to lose.
As we continue this discussion, we need to clarify which side you all stand on. People who say tunnels are bad, citing beginners, have to accept that they themselves are not bothered by tunnels.
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I know this is a month old, but an incentive will not lesson tunneling. It will just help the killer mains that are arelady good without it, and do nothing towards killers that actually tunnel.
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Among other things, but yes. I used to play each day, 2-3 hours. Survivor experience is so bad I now play less than 3 hours A WEEK. So yes, it's killing the game because it really drives survivors away from the game.
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The survivor being tunneled runs the killer as long as they can. The punishment comes from the other survivors doing gens and getting out. I don’t care about what survivors find fun or what killers find fun. I could just as easily say is it fun for a Trapper to have gens fly by while they try to play nice and 12 hook.
The amount of effort required is equally pointless. Survivor is a much easier role requiring not much effort. Some killers are so strong they require much less effort than others.
Im not sure why you’re expecting balance in a strategy that can easily throw the game for the killer. And it’s also a strategy that is present in virtually every 4v1 type game.
Again, it’s on the survivors to play well.
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They run the killer for as long as they can, when the killer is explicitly targeting them when they're injured, out of position, and very likely to be in a deadzone?
The whole point of choosing to tunnel a survivor is that they're starting that chase on an extreme back foot. All the killer has to do is start the chase, but the survivor has to both get lucky enough to have a resource near enough to get to before their BT runs out and then play substantially better than their opponent to make up for the fact that the chase is heavily stacked against them.
I absolutely agree that countering tunnelling should be on the survivors to play well. It is then therefore unavoidably a requirement for them playing well to actually reliably counter the tactic, which it currently does not. They have to play far better than their opponent to overcome the fact that they're being targeted when they haven't had a chance to make smart decisions. Playing well isn't just about how well you can loop, and expecting survivors to be on Team Eternal's level just to counter a cheese tactic from the killer is not balanced.
For example: If the basekit BT wasn't Endurance but just blocked a hit (like Mettle Of Man), they could then chain their anti-tunnel into it, as well as using other forms of Endurance like Dead Hard. Then they'd be able to smartly chain tiles together because they actually had the equivalent of starting a normal chase with the killer, and how much time they waste is up to them. This would help them while being tunnelled, but not otherwise, because anti-tunnel disables on Conspicuous Actions.
As it stands, though, trying to use something like OTR gets you hit straight away, trying to use DS just gets you downed again very quickly in most scenarios, and that's it when it comes to personal anti-tunnel. Even if you wanted to stack a full build of anti-tunnel perks, you can't, there's only two you can bring yourself and they aren't actually very good + have anti-synergy with the basekit mechanic. Even when branching out into other tools that could help in that scenario, the question arises: is it fair for you to have to run all of these perks to counter something the killer needs no perks and no effort to do? The answer is no, I'm not leaving it open-ended. That's not a fair outcome, you shouldn't be given a loss just because you wanted variety in your perk builds.
Tunnelling has already been lessened, as a problem. It's impossible now for the killer to hit you as soon as your feet touch the ground, and that was a great start. It's still not balanced, though, and nine times out of ten imbalances should be fixed.
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If a survivor steps into the dead zone even though they are injured, isn't that an act equivalent to suicide by suicide? Hooked Survivors can look around and see where other Survivors are and where they are on the map. In the first place, being tunneled means that other survivors are not wasting pallets, which can greatly extend the chase time with the killer.
Each one may seem useless, but by stacking them together Survivors can significantly counter the tunnel, but no one wants to do it.
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The other problem with tunneling is that it's not even worth trying to counter either. Because even if by some miracle you manage to run the Killer for all five gens and escape, you'll still more than likely de-pip because you won't have any points on objectives or altruism.
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Forced Penance makes you broken when taking a protection hit.
Why can't the same code/script be used for DS so you get punished/broken when trying to use it offensively?
Then back to 5s stun and deactivate end game.
The. End.
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What I'm referring to is typically that resources would've been used during the previous chase, especially if you've already been tunnelled after your first unhook and you had to use more resources to make up for the fact that the chase is stacked against you.
Also, they don't have a choice as to whether they're injured or not. They're being tunnelled, they're going to be injured.
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If they got downed in a dead zone then that’s on them. If they used a ton of resources in the chase and the gens aren’t flying then that’s on the survivors.
You can go to effort all you want, the killer is still exuding more effort than the survivors. There is no fair or unfair in the build you decide to use. Survivors have options, just like killers have options. A killer can run an entire gen defense build. Buying your teammates time to do gens doesn’t require a full build. You can run one or two perks for it and do whatever you want with the rest. Or run a full variety of perks and don’t worry about whether you’re going to get tunneled or not. It rarely happens to me.
This will be my last reply on the issue, we’re just going to keep going back and forth. Per usual, the issue just boils down to survivors needing to play better.
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I have now realized that
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