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Grim Embrace + Dead Man's Switch Is Nothing Like Old Eruption
I keep seeing this comparison around, and it's absolutely baffling to me because it's so obviously not true. Even assuming the things people say about GE + DMS are true (more on that at the bottom of the post), that combo is nowhere near as awful for the game as old Eruption was.
For comparison here...
Eruption:
- Blocked you from performing all major actions except unhooking, with the Incapacitated status effect.
- Applied its effect for 25 seconds.
- Could be activated a functionally unlimited number of times; the only limiting factor is that downing survivors would either translate to a hook or would lead to them bleeding out eventually.
- Had absolutely no tell or warning before it happened to use for trying to counter it.
- Damaged generators directly and guaranteed uninterrupted regression too.
Grim Embrace + Dead Man's Switch:
- If it works, blocks the generator you're working on for around 25 seconds (depending on killer movement speed). Other generators are blocked for 12 seconds, and no other actions are hampered.
- Happens three times a match. (The fourth Grim Embrace doesn't interact with Dead Man's Switch, and we're looking at the combo here.)
- Has a very meaningful tell that makes countering it extremely doable for any player that wants to.
- Does not directly damage generators and prevents their regression.
Now, that third bullet point for GE + DMS invalidates this whole comparison to begin with; the combo doesn't even meaningfully work because of how easy it is to counter, it's in the exact same boat as Pain Resonance and Dead Man's Switch. Even disregarding that, though, comparing it to Eruption is absolutely ridiculous. It's an exaggeration so extreme that it really damages the argument.
The entire hysteria around this combo is incredibly overblown, and it seems like half the people mad about it only talk about Grim Embrace to begin with. Whether that perk needs changes or not, I am very confident in saying this combo is not problematic in any way that outstrips the perks on their own. I'd be delighted to hear any context I might be missing here, because I'd like to think the people talking about this have some kind of valid point I'm simply missing, but as it stands this looks like one of the biggest overreactions in the community's history and that's saying something.
Comments
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I will agree its not as strong as old eruption. You can do other stuff like heal and totems. Also after they hook you can just let go for a bit to wait for the block. And it has a hard limit. And it definitely does a good job of forcing survivors to do something else. But i won't exactly say its fun either since you basically get kicked off a lot. And theres other blocks like dms,thrilling tremors, and deadlock. So you can have gens blocked for minutes. So you just find yourself sitting around and waiting.
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Being able to stop EVERY gen from progressing for two and a half minutes is ludicrous. And genuinely, survivors are standing around with their dick in their hands every time it happens waiting to be allowed to play the game again.
DMS should flat out just not trigger from anything that FORCES the survivor to let go of the gen.
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It doesn't do that?
It stops every gen from progressing for 76 seconds total, and that's staggered across multiple hooks with the first three only being for 12 seconds.
To the point of the thread, too, that's nowhere close to what Eruption used to do. Even disregarding the actual regression Eruption would apply, under Grim Embrace + Dead Man's Switch survivors can do literally anything that isn't generators, unlike Eruption.
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I played the exact same build yesterday on almost all Killer games: Pain Res, Corrupt Intervention, DMS, Grim Embrace.
And I destroyed almost every team I faced, the only time I did not win (3K without all Gens repaired is a Win for me, because the Survivor just escaped because I was nice to not slug for the 4K) was one game with Huntress on The Game, where I got sent by the Survivors. And I am really not good at Huntress.
Other games have been with Bubba and Billy (on Billy I used Lethal Pursuer and BBQ instead of Pain Res and Corrupt) and I won all of them.
No Survivor complained about my Build, but they said it was annoying and strong. One Survivor said that if it is already painful on a "bad" Killer like Bubba, they cannot imagine it on S-Tier Killers.
And we will see it on more Killers over time. Even Eruption was not present in every game after its Buff. And while the combo is not as bad as Eruption, because the Survivor can at least do SOMETHING, it comes really close to it.
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I absolutely agree with every word. I'm reading these hysterical posts about "super broken perks combo" and I don't understand if we're exactly playing same game.
You also could add here that GE+DMS require two perk slots and give nowhere near as much value as Pain Res + Pop, or even Deadlock + Pop. I'm not even sure that this combo is stronger than Pop by itself in some matches.
I think people started discussing this combo back at the PTB, and instead of appreciating its impact on the matches, they continue to convince themselves of far-fetched things.
For the same reason, people think that a good Blight player can't be strong, but a good Billy or Slinger player with 15-second chase against an average player - well, he can, because he is not S tier.
People just love to look for fictional evidence of what they believe in. And to look at things soberly is absolutely not about community of this game.
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I'm not sure what anecdotal evidence like this is supposed to prove.
What were the survivors doing? Were key mistakes made that would've lost them the game regardless of build? Were they countering the specific combo this post is about? How much weight were Pain Res and Corrupt pulling? Without context like this, just saying "I won a bunch of games" doesn't actually mean anything.
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The forum is full of anecdotal evidence, but somehow a Killer saying they just lost a game is the ultimate proof that DBD is survivor-sided, but someone saying that a certain build might be too good is anecdotal evidence.
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Those would both be anecdotal evidence and neither would prove anything about balance.
I get what you're saying, but that double standard hasn't actually been displayed here, you're just... repeating the same fallacy you've seen elsewhere. It's not good evidence when you do it either.
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Deny to progress objective isnt a good thing for me. Killers can say flash light save deny objective for a hook. But the equal to unable to do Gen for survivors is unable to chase survivor for killers.
Buffed Eruption was just a selling point to old RE chapter. They let the perk be for 8 months was insane.
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You forgot to bullet that Grim Embrace only works with first hooks while you could tunnel and get value out of old eruption.
We agree that it's not as bad as old eruption combos, though we will point out it is a pain to deal with as it's effectively saying leave and go work on another gen/something or wait deadmans timer.
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You only have to wait out the Grim Embrace timer, not the DMS timer. DMS isn't activating if you counter the combo, only Grim Embrace.
And at that point, sure, it's kind of annoying, but that kind of waiting has been in the game for a while. If Deadlock blocks your gen or if Thrilling blocks the gen you're running towards, you have to wait out a longer timer than Grim Embrace, and those could do that more frequently than GE too. This isn't really anything new worth this kind of outrage.
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The point was if you did get hit thats what it boils to.
And of course there's something new worth this kind of outrage. Something got changed :} (for the love of the entity pleeeeeease play along with the joke)
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Most of the people complaining about it don't even understand how it works from what I've seen. So many people are acting like it triggers DMS on every gen like ??? no it doesn't? Especially if you're using pain res with it like Grim doesn't even factor into that that's just Pain Res/DMS that's been in the game for years. Adding Grim to the build gets you maybe one extra DMS trigger if that each time.
The rest of the gens being worked on are only going to be blocked for 12 seconds which is worse than Thrilling Tremors and I don't see people complaining about that perk at all.
I'm not even convinced it's the new best build rather than just a pretty decent alternative to Pop/Pain Res/Corrupt/BBQ. That alone should be proof the comparison to Eruption is ridiculous. During that time you ran Eruption/CoB because it was the best combo and it wasn't close. I don't feel I have to run Grim/DMS it's just a good option I have.
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The combo also works 3 times ONLY when hooking new survivors, it is literally the play nice for value combo
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The counter is to stop repairing the gen and wait for Grim Embrace to finish. That's 20+ seconds depending on the carry time and when the killer leaves the hook. The counter itself is really strong for killers.
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Carry time? You let go as the hook animation starts, so it's literally just Grim Embrace plus a few seconds to account for the killer walking away.
It's also not that the counter is really strong for killers, because the counter is just the effect of Grim Embrace.
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I mean this is the bi-product of survivors wanting killers to not tunnel or camp. Killers get a perk to actually rewarding hooking other survivors but still survivors arent happy. Also the fact that its a play nice for value combo. I would agree if it worked for EVERY hook but 3 times at max? It's a non-issue.
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Is it as bad as old Eruption? No, incapacitation was far too powerful for a perk with no restrictions.
But saying it's 'nothing' like Eruption is incorrect as well. It has the same problem as incapacitation did, where survivors are forced to be effectively afk.
Let's look at it this way:
Did you look at the gen for at least 12 seconds? If you did, do you call that 'gameplay'? (The answer is no, staring at a blocked gen for at least 12 seconds isn't gameplay).
It's a ######### mechanic, which is why GE was initially so restricted in it's implementation. Something about that got lost or forgotten when they buffed it.
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That was the problem with Incapacitated on a perk, and that's exactly why Grim Embrace is nothing like old Eruption.
You are not forced to stare at a blocked gen for 12 seconds, you are just forced not to repair a gen for 12 seconds. No other action is prevented.
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I dont get it I thought we wanted less tunneling now we're calling for nerfs for a perk that doesn't do anything if you tunnel?
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There's no disincentive to tunnel here. It's not like the perk disables once a survivor dies or anything.
So you can use GE with things like pain res, get the slowdown to tunnel out one person, then still get full value out of those perks to solidify your 3v1 win.
Which is what's happening.
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Especially the first time this occurs, so first hook of the game, what are you imagining survivors doing here?
There's no one injured, so you don't have to heal. Only one person needs to go for the rescue.
So you think two survivors are going to go look for a chest or totem and cleanse it in 12 seconds? That's not even close to realistic.
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Tbh ultimate weapon, DMS does tthe same as Grim Embrace, DMS
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So the absolute worst case scenario here - and I mean that, this is like the scenario you describe where there's nothing else that could be done and the survivor in question doesn't want to go for the save + doesn't have any cause to mess with totems or chests - is that the survivor has to wait twelve seconds. A minor annoyance, but nowhere near close to the damage old Eruption would do to your ability to interact with the game.
There is, and I will not sugarcoat this sentiment, a gigantic difference between being locked out of performing almost any action that interacts with the game outside of chase, and just not being able to repair a generator. There's also a huge difference between the former being active for 25 seconds, and the latter being active for just 12.
This isn't even accounting for any other thing that could need doing/could be done when Grim Embrace activates. It also, and this is perhaps the most important point, isn't at all about the combination of Grim Embrace and Dead Man's Switch, so it's further proving my point that complaints about that combo are mostly just about Grim Embrace on its own.
It's also not new. Multiple perks cause these kind of wait periods and most of those are either longer or more frequent, or both.
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It’s like ftp/buckle up. It shouldnt exist in the game at all, but people will do mental gymnastics to try and justify it.
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Does pointing out that it literally doesn't do the thing people say it does count as "mental gymnastics"?
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For me it is not of imporance if it gets (rightfully or not) comparared with other metas or buids, but it comes down to the fact that Grim Embrace is plain and simple very overpowered, some may say broken. I am not even talking about overpowered because it can be paired with DMS, but rather the perk itself.
Just compare Pain Res, an already very powerful Perk with Grim Embrace. Getting a total value of almost 80 seconds on ALL gens (GE) vs 90 seconds on ONE gen (PR) is not close to the same power level so to say. The same level would be if PR would trigger on every generator.
And like mentioned, it can be paired with DMS, which has the potential to lock every gen for 2 minutes. Two freakin minutes! How is this not busted? The funniest ######### is those people who defend GE are the once who complain about the minus 5 seconds for a gen on Deja-Vu.🤣
We should talk about how to fix Grim Embrace instead of defending it. It is pointless to even pretend this perk is okay.
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Well, as I've laid out, the DMS combo is kinda nothing. The "potential" is that it can lock every gen being worked on (not the same thing as every gen) for that amount of time cumulatively, but only if you ask the survivors nicely and they obligingly shut their eyes to let you.
As to whether Grim Embrace is overpowered on its own, I'm stalwartly on the fence until I've seen more of it. It seems right now like it's probably fine - the new effect is gen blocking that is both less frequent and less lengthy than already existing perks, and the old effect has been in the game for a while so it's probably fine.
I appreciate, at least, that you're more open about just having a problem with Grim Embrace on its own.
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Exactly. It's the fact that survivors simply have nothing to do for as long as it's active, that really makes this combo problematic. What are the survivors supposed to do during that time? Their only objective is blocked, so they can't progress. Twiddling your thumbs for 30 seconds is not exactly fun.
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It’s incredible that there’s people genuinely bootlicking terrible design after design just because the one before it was worse. The point of the Eruption comparison is because the combo is ALMOST as horrific as it was and NEEDS to change. It prevented you from doing the survivors objective completely. No perk should do that. End of story. What you effectively say here is down playing how actually incredibly destructive the combo is.
You’re goal posting. If Ruin’s first iteration came back, the first friggin’ thing you’d say is “well at least it ain’t Eruption!”
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If Ruin came back and people started saying "did BHVR learn nothing from Eruption", you're right, I would point out that comparison is stupid. Doesn't mean I'd be defending it, just pointing out that the specific argument being used is off the mark and unhelpful, just as it is here. Remember, I did not bring up this comparison, I am responding to people being very direct and explicit in comparing the two.
I'm also not bootlicking, I disagree with you. There's a difference between those two things.
In this case, too, it's about a combination where one of the perks doesn't actually activate at the same time as the other one, so the synergy everyone's talking about doesn't exist. I think that's a pretty reasonable thing to point out, personally.
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Grim Embrace stops gens for 76 seconds. I really have no problem with Grim Embrace alone. DMS bumping every 12 second block up to a 30 second block is the problem.
Then you add Pain Resonance, so you can't just wait until the hook is done to let go and wait out GE, because the pop will trigger DMS anyway. So to "wait out" Grim Embrace, you're waiting out the carry time and the grim embrace time, at which point you may as well have just let it get DMSed.
As Pain Resonance activates at the start of the animation, you can't just let go of a gen with perfect timing unless you have SWF to tell you when.
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It sounds like PR + DMS is the bigger problem.
GE blocks for 12 seconds and is avoidable. The fact that it triggers on every gen is neither here nor there if those gens aren't being repaired. PR is unavoidable and forces DMS.
Why is this suddenly a problem when PR + DMS has existed for ages?
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I will freely admit that it's possible I'm wrong here, but I've been under the impression that Pain Resonance + Dead Man's Switch is still counterable by letting go as the hook animation starts, the way it was changed to be when Pain Res + DMS was a big combo the first time. Has that changed recently and Pain Res activates earlier now?
If it has changed, though, Seraphor is right. That means Pain Res + DMS is the problem, not Grim Embrace + DMS. In that scenario Grim Embrace isn't even doing anything.
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The issue is that pre-change, you could wait out Pain Res for a few seconds of carry time, then you were safe from DMS. If it was GE without Pain Res, you could work through carry time and then let go before GE triggers to avoid the longer DMS proc.
Having all three means that you either wait a long time for both avoiding the PR caused-DMS and GE to expire, or you trigger it and have to wait a long time regardless. There's no winning counterplay, it's just whether or not the gen is blocked while you stand there unable to work on it.
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The counterplay is letting go as the hook animation starts. That's how you counter Pain Res and DMS - or at least, it was for a while, and I'm asking you if that's changed.
Was that change made? Can you no longer counter Pain Res + DMS by letting go at the start of the hook animation?
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The gen explodes at the start of the hooking animation, so unless you have direct line of sight of the killer hooking, or swf to tell you when to let go, no, you can't just let go when you see the survivor aura going onto the hook.
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Assuming that's true (I'll have to keep an eye out and check next time I play survivor), we're right back to Pain Res and DMS being the problem, not Grim Embrace.
I have no idea why they changed that, it made Pain Res and DMS a complete non-issue. Definitely something that should be changed back.
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