Can we address the Moonwalk Legion Bloodhound?

ZCerebrate

I realized I just ranted here for awhile after I typed it up but the fix is near the bottom bolded.

I'm sure this may have been brought up at some point but this is one of my major criticisms against Legion having this as a playstyle at all. You basically run the normal happy stuff like BBQ and Chili, Hex: Ruin, Thano or Make your choice and then... Bloodhound (Some people swear by Stridor too which has a similar playstyle). If you have a Mixtape to make your bleed damage do even more - maybe even a dirty dagger to extend the mending time even better.

Run around until you find someone - you right click and stab them at your run speed to inflict Deep Wounds then hit someone else nearby or just hit the same guy again. Now you turn around and stare at the ground /wallforcing the chase to end then you walk backwards or sideways in the general direction. Eventually you just begin looking at the ground as bright red bloodspots (or listen for loud moads) tell you where the guy is and since the chase won't reinitiate (I've experienced what I'll just call an exploit - from both sides now) unless you force yourself into his face and which case you get stabbed and the guy has to stop and mend or just bleed out.

The worst part about this playstyle is that you're guaranteed to kill at least 1 or 2 people regardless of how good they are at juking and yes the others will escape if they're doing generators at all but the "bloodpoint farmer" build will 99% of the time Black or 1 pip at least as a Brutal or Ruthless killer. Yes I am aware that there are ways to get 4K with Legion and just downing people after running past them and using cooldown addons to just M1 them once you deepwounds etc - but that still feels more interactive than wait until the survivor is FORCED to mend or die then getting slapped when mend cannot be stopped anymore. This is just not fun in a competitive game where the choice is just taken away from you and you're watching the Legion either do this correctly or mess it up (although I suppose ironically this is the only killer who can play at his own pace instead of hoping the survivors mess up).

Outside of a full rework for the killer... which I would still be up for like making the guy a stealthy killer who can pretend to work on a generator and reduce his terror radius to 0 then just stab whoever comes to coop with him.

My very rough fix would be to just make the deep wounds mechanic not count down at all while you are mending it (This would be a nerf to legion but also a buff as the other survivors have no idea if their friend is being chased still just by observing the bar). Getting stuck into a mend as my bar disappears and smacked because I can't let go even if the "chase" began again is the main issue for me.

Theluckyboi

NO

be mercifull with legion, the least thing he needs right now is another nerf

ZCerebrate

@Theluckyboi said:
NO

Let legion at least have this one

I mean they could buff him slightly somewhere else like his base non-powered movement speed can be put to normal killers or make it so his power doesn't immediately fade upon a hit on an already deep wounded character in exchange for not getting rid of more on the mend bar past the first hit (creates a situation where you keep chasing someone repeatedly stabbing him so he reveals all of his friends to you)

This would still have the option to cancel the power if you wish with a right click as it is now - just not forcibly knock you out of your Frenzy when you stab someone for Deep Wounds Bar damage.

Edit: Also this could inadvertently be a lateral buff for Legion who can now tell WHEN you are mending if he lost sight of you and the bar isn't moving.

George_Soros

I use this method as Legion, and while it's hardly something that grants you a win (takes too long), it does grant you an occasional hook with little effort. The problem is not how strong this mechanic makes Legion (it doesn't) as much as it's an incredibly stupid and offputting mechaninc: even though realism is obviously not as important as balance and interesting gameplay, following someone while looking down or reversing is just plain ridiculous.

I don't have a solution ready, but I believe it lies somewhere in fine tuning the new Deep Wound mechanic. Maybe no blood (hey, it's supposed to be "internal bleeding" anyway), but in the meanwhile, chase does not stop the Deep Wound meter. I don't know it would work, but I agree with you @ZCerebrate , it's just a silly way of playing.

ZCerebrate

@George_Soros said:
I use this method as Legion, and while it's hardly something that grants you a win (takes too long), it does grant you an occasional hook with little effort. The problem is not how strong this mechanic makes Legion (it doesn't) as much as it's an incredibly stupid and offputting mechaninc: even though realism is obviously not as important as balance and interesting gameplay, following someone while looking down or reversing is just plain ridiculous.

I don't have a solution ready, but I believe it lies somewhere in fine tuning the new Deep Wound mechanic. Maybe no blood (hey, it's supposed to be "internal bleeding" anyway), but in the meanwhile, chase does not stop the Deep Wound meter. I don't know it would work, but I agree with you @ZCerebrate , it's just a silly way of playing.

Thank you. I may have lost that somewhere in my ramblings but by no means is this something that makes Legion an overpowered killer for decisively killing everyone but the emblem system rewards this "offputting playstyle" so people will continue to do it. This could maybe be treated close to "facecamping" and shouldn't allow the killer to guarantee himself a black pip or +1 pip to rank and if players don't care about rank then it should not reward 15~20k+ Bloodpoints before offerings even if 2~3 people escape

George_Soros

@ZCerebrate said:

@George_Soros said:
I use this method as Legion, and while it's hardly something that grants you a win (takes too long), it does grant you an occasional hook with little effort. The problem is not how strong this mechanic makes Legion (it doesn't) as much as it's an incredibly stupid and offputting mechaninc: even though realism is obviously not as important as balance and interesting gameplay, following someone while looking down or reversing is just plain ridiculous.

I don't have a solution ready, but I believe it lies somewhere in fine tuning the new Deep Wound mechanic. Maybe no blood (hey, it's supposed to be "internal bleeding" anyway), but in the meanwhile, chase does not stop the Deep Wound meter. I don't know it would work, but I agree with you @ZCerebrate , it's just a silly way of playing.

Thank you. I may have lost that somewhere in my ramblings but by no means is this something that makes Legion an overpowered killer for decisively killing everyone but the emblem system rewards this "offputting playstyle" so people will continue to do it. This could maybe be treated close to "facecamping" and shouldn't allow the killer to guarantee himself a black pip or +1 pip to rank one and 15~20k+ Bloodpoints before offerings even if 2~3 people escape

Yea I know you didn't say it makes Legion OP or anything.
I'd add this: I find this mechanic particularly annoying because otherwise I feel Legion has a lot of potential to be a unique and fun killer, nevermind how strong or weak they are, but like Freddy, their power offers a playstyle that's drastically different from most other killers. Which is a good thing. I love the variety in DBD. The silliness not so much.

I'm kinda optimistic though: not always, but quite often devs have proven they can work around some problems plaguing the game. Hopefully, they'll come up with something that fixes the issue.

Until then, I'll keep using Bloodhound whenever I play Legion

Milord

My fix for this problem is to make DW bar not reduce while running, instead of while in chase. That way, if Legion does the moonwalk, just run. But, to compensate for the ability to run the entire map without DW decreasing, if you're still mending when the bar is at 1%, you'll get a difficult skill check (DS level maybe). In theory, you will keep running until one of these occurs: 1. Legion gets you; 2. They can't catch you so they give up on you; 3. your friends open an escape and you can escape.

Mister_Holdout

I'm going to be brutally honest here. Legion is the worst killer the devs have ever released.

It's not an exaggeration to say that Legion is a brain-dead killer. There really is hardly any skill cap.

I think the devs should just scrap their "deep wound" idea and come up with something else. Something that factors in the killer's skill and the survivor's skill.

As it stands now, survivors absolutely loathe playing against Legion and i don't blame them. I play solo survivor at rank 1 and Legion definitely is a pain to verse.

At the very least, the devs should change the power in some way to make it more skill-oriented for both sides.

Demoth

The fact people use these methods to get downs with Legions is just a testament to how screwed up he currently is.

The community had to find a way to make Legion semi-viable in getting downs because the dev team did their "internal play testing", finding him just fine, making it pretty clear they're probably all rank 20's.

SpacingLlamas

My idea would be to have the mending timer to not decrease when in their terror radius and/or have so mending timer doesnt decrease right away after ending a chases for X amount of seconds. Maybe 5.

Khroalthemadbomber

SpacingLlamas said:

My idea would be to have the mending timer to not decrease when in their terror radius and/or have so mending timer doesnt decrease right away after ending a chases for X amount of seconds. Maybe 5.

Or at the very least have it decrease at a much slower rate inside the killer's terror radius so that way if Legion DOES moon walk it's going to take even longer then just smacking them per normal.

Dehitay

I'll be the first to admit that Legion's chase breaking is completely brain dead gameplay when compared to other killers. It's incredibly easy and gets downs in about 20 seconds to a minute depending on how many things went in your favor.

However, if you stop comparing it to other killers and start comparing it to how long chases were originally meant to take, this is about just right. Survivors weren't supposed to be able to loop killers for the entire length of a gen rush, but depending on what chain pallet/vault looping path they take, that's entirely possible against killers like Cannibal, Shape, Nightmare, and a number of others.

Legion's chase breaking mechanics can only be considered broken cause the broken mechanics of using smaller hitboxes and the survivor advantage acceleration for looping is powerful as hell when mixed in with the right chain pallet/vault routes.If chases only lasted as long as originally intended when the game came out, their downing times would hardly be noticeable.

DocFabron

Theluckyboi said:

NO

be mercifull with legion, the least thing he needs right now is another nerf

When did Legion get nerfed?

Divinitye9

To me the legion moonwalk is an exploit, albeit, yes a minor one, but it was clearly not intended.

People will do what they can to get the win, however, and it’ll be interesting if they try and fix this.

Someissues

If they get rid of that he would be the bottom tier. Trash in other words

he would need significant buffs in other areas otherwise he will become very weak

FIxing it is fine but the devs have no intention of buffing him in other areas, chasing someone ,stab them 4 times isnt fun and is too time wasting, other killers like Nurse can down someone in 20-30 seconds. 1 minute 30 sec to down someone is not okay

Zarathos

Nerfs I recommend
Better fix make it so your bleed out does not go down in his tr.
When attacking his bar will be consumed or a portion of his bar this portion can be reduced by legion pins.So if legion whiffs it has consequences.
Franks mix tape need to be nerfed with the ptb change its effect should be reworked to potentially make whiffed attacks carry no penalties or it doubles the speed at which a survivor bleeds out.

Buffs I recomend
But also buff him by making his killer instinct have a longer duration so he can spread out his damage.
Make bleed out continue dropping while in chase but no further then 30% so he can finish you off with a feral frenzy attack.
The ptb change of lowering the bar if not healed looks great with one exception franks mix tape nerf mentioned above.

Vietfox

@Theluckyboi said:

NO

be mercifull with legion, the least thing he needs right now is another nerf

This is not how games work. Only intended features can be buffed or nerfed, the moonwalking legion is an exploit  thus can't be buffed or nerfed.

SadonicShadow

Perhaps to address the moonwalk issue the conditions for deepwound bleedout could be changed from being in a chase to being within the terror radius of the killer. Atleast this way he can't cheese the mechanic and gives the survivor a chance to escape when the killer is near.

Edit: In addition to that they could give legion 115% movement speed and make it so that subsequent hits on the same survivor with feral frenzy do not reduce the bleedout bar. So essentially the power could be used to get an easy first hit and tag multiple survivors if they are near and then to get the down he has to chase the survivor traditionally and M1 them while also using his power to close distance or vault pallets if he so desires.