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I really dislike the way killer perk changes are going, and nerfing Mangled would make it even worse
TL;DR: the current meta is becoming more and more about gen speed vs gen slowdown, the STBFL nerf made it worse and a sloppy nerf would make it even worse. Killer meta is losing variety, leaving only the gen-related perks.
I will start this post by saying that, while you don't HAVE to play in the meta, right now the MMR is quite strict and, if you're an experienced killer who plays regularly, the chances of facing really skilled and/or committed survivors who play as efficient as possible and only bring the strongest stuff are higher than they have ever been. So playing off-meta feels more punishing now than it was in a long time, possibly the worst since the times before Ruin got reworked. In other words, the game is pushing people to the meta a lot more than it did before. Now, to the other issues:
GEN DEFENSE: recent changes are pushing the perk meta into being even more about gen speed vs gen defense. Seriously, it started when Pop and Deja Vu got buffed at the same time. The shift wasn't immediate, but once the MMR change got noticeable, people stacking Resilience, Deja Vu and toolboxes with BNPs became an insanely common sight, turning the meta into a tug of war between gen slowdown vs gen speed.
3-GENNING FIX: the fix itself was good, but there is a problem: the weaker gen regression perks got even weaker, pushing people to use more of the strongest instead. Oppression is even less worth it than before (there is a limit to regression events now, why would you bring a perk that only gives you a very small regression and you can't even control which gens it affects?), Eruption it's possibly in the worst state it has ever been and even Jolt got affected by this to an extent (why bring an 8% regression when you can use perks that give 30%, 20%, or block the gen instead of regressing it?). It also just replaced a bit of the gen-regression meta by a gen-blocking meta, it is still centered around gens.
STBFL: it was an unneeded nerf. There were only TWO chase perks that could be called meta, and the one that was better for M1 KILLERS, the weakest ones, got a pretty bad nerf. By the way, killer chase perks are not very good in general. There's not much of a reason to bring Brutal Strenght, Enduring, Fire Up, Hubris, Unrelenting or Dissolution instead of much better perks out there, unless you want to make a whole build around them, but this builds are mostly quite weak. STBFL was one of the few that actually made a difference and now it's nerfed, making the meta even MORE about gen defense than before.
MANGLED/SLOPPY: the whole Mangled status effect and Sloppy Butcher are going to get a change in the next patch, and it's probably a nerf. For anyone who doesn't know, Sloppy became an actual good perk when healing speed was nerfed back in 2018. Back then, gens were faster, toolboxes were much stronger, but the devs were against the idea of changing that, so they nerfed healing to give killers more chances to apply pressure instead, slowing the game down without slowing the actual gens. Even years later, even during the gen-kick meta, Sloppy was never considered problematic, it remained as one of the few options of slowing the game without stacking gen regression, and also a pretty good option for m1 killers and stealth builds (since it's great when paired with A Nurse's Calling), which are not very strong.
UPCOMING CHANGE: Now a nerf seems to be on the way, and to make things worse, I've seen a lot of people suggesting Mangled is about to become timed like blindness, exposed and other status effects. This is the WORST thing that could happen with Mangled, it would become terrible. It is timed because it's one of the few status effects that the SURVIVOR controls when it comes into effect. Exhausted and Blindness take effect immediatly, exposed is up to the killer chasing and trying to hit that survivor, Mangled and Hemorrage only do something when survivors decide to heal. Their counter is very simple: focus gens instead of healing. If it was timed, it wouldn't do anything unless the killer did hit-and-run tactics (since it wouldn't last after the unhooking), and even then, people would just wait a little before starting to heal and pretend the effect didn't even exist at all while the killer was chasing someone else. It would become just a worse, more pathetic version of deep wound.
If the nerfs keep going like this, at some point the top 10 most picked killer perks will be all gen slowdown perks except for BBQ and Lethal Pursuer, the most boring meta in a long time. Let's not forget: the latest data with STBFL among the highest pick rates is from BEFORE the nerf.
Comments
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IMO the StBfL nerf was necessary as it was not tuned after killer was given a flat 2 stacks. Not losing stacks when hitting the obsession with your power always was a head scratcher for me as it went against the very theme and literal name of the perk.
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It definitely didn't need to be nerfed to this level but I'm still hoping its because they made a lazy change that will be fixed later, the whole mitigate using power was actually kind of healthy for the game because it let you go after the obsession without being punished or with only being half punished which means rather than completely ignore 1 of the survivors and more likely than not tunnel people actually ended up spreading pressure more evenly because they felt able to do so. Now more than ever if I use STBFL I find myself saying its not worth it anymore and just tunneling instead because there's no point anymore. Its better for the gameplay loop to not have a survivor that you just never want to chase.
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Sloppy is kind of busted now that medkits got nerfed. You can't even get a single heal from a medkit without add-ons if the killer is running the perk. I'm certain that's why it's getting reworked. If it is on a timer then it will still slow down healing, but it won't straight up invalidate basic medkits.
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After healing and medkits nerfed to ground, this effect can't stay as it is. Some changes needed.
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that's not how hemorrhage or mangled works.
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The hemorage status effect is just overtuned honestly it’s why I can’t stand playing against sloppy butcher
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I've tried healing with basic medkits that I found in a chest when afflicted with sloppy and I've not been able to fully heal, always running short, even if the heal is uninterrupted. Perhaps there is something else at play that I'm unaware of.
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When Sloppy Butcher gets nerfed, killers will have no good general perks. Unless you want to count NOED.
How much time does Mangled add to a heal, again? 4 seconds?
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I thought Mangled was fine as it is, but the Hemorrhage needs to be toned down a bit. The regression is too fast, about the same speed as a normal heal (or faster than the healing progress when Mangled is in play, which the majority of the time, Mangled and Hemorrhage are put together).
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Isn't an additional 25% debuff to healing speed enough time to stop a basic medkit granting a full heal?
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Unless you are missing skillchecks, every med-kit has enough charges for a single self-heal.
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Even with mangled? I can't remember the last time I missed a healing skillcheck but I've still failed to get a full self-heal from a brown medkit.
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It makes it slower but it's not draining more charges. You still get a full heal out of a medkit so long as you don't miss any skillchecks. It consumes the same amount of charges to heal you, it just does it slower.
This, I agree with, the healing regression needs to be toned down, and Sloppy Butcher doesn't need to buff it at all. I've said in previous threads, Hemmorhage's healing regression should only happen if the survivor is running.
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Then I have no idea how I've not got a full heal from a brown medkit. It happened fairly recently. I didn't hit great skillchecks but it still fell just short of a full heal.
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Mangled doesn't increase the amount of charges required to heal, it increases time. Basically while NORMALLY 1 charge=1 second, when something affects speed either positively or negatively, you'll still use the same number of charges. Same goes for toolboxes.
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i do do not like perk changes either. the killer seem restricted to only info perks and gen-delay. no chase perks allowed.
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Nerfing Sloppy/Mangled is something thats inevitable.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
Cheers for the info. No idea how I've fallen short of a full heal without missing skillchecks or stopping the heal part way through. Maybe it was just the game being janky.
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We're you using botany knowledge or the killer using Overwhelming presence? Both perks would lower the efficiency of a medkit.
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"the current meta is becoming more and more about gen speed vs gen slowdown."
There has never been a time in DBD history when this hasn't been the case. It has never happened, and it never will
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I didn't have BK equipped. Maybe I was in the furthest edge of the killer's TR so I couldn't hear it, but the heal only fell short by maybe a second or two.
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once there was a bug where a full medkit didn't suffice to heal one health state but normally they should, mangled only makes it use its charges slower and hemorrhage does nothing if you don't let go of the heal. i'd post it in bug report section if that happens consistently because it shouldn't unless you are using botany knowledge or something.
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Medkit's base charges are setup to be JUST enough, so if anything so much as sneezes in the direction of your medkit, you better hit a great skillcheck or you'll fall short, lol. Overwhelming presence comes near for half a second? Now you don't have enough...
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Mangled is annoying to go against, but it's not something I consider to be problematic. However, I wouldn't mind if they make it timer-based as long as my precious Gift of Pain doesn't get too nerfed. If Sloppy Butcher does indeed get butchered from the upcoming Mangled rework, then I want them to make the game more accessible for newer players by buffing the current general perks or introducing new general perks. Sloppy Butcher is currently one of the only good general killer perks in the game, so I am hoping for more general perks to be viable.
As for STBFL all it really needed was the 4% nerf and for it to not activate within 16m of a hooked survivor (with a 7 second linger in that radius after a survivor gets unhooked). It was a saving grace for lower tier killers, especially Pig.
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It's only happened a couple of times, so I'm going to assume I am simply mistaken. Although if I happens again and there's no OP then I might make a bug report about it.
This is quite possibly it. I'll have a look the next time it happens.
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I'm curious to see how the Mangled nerf works. If the timer is long enough, then people just won't heal until they aren't mangled anymore. Depending on the timer, this could end up being similar to what mangled does now. The timer might end up being more of a dial they could use to control mangled.
I also wonder if part of the reason they're doing this is to hurt tunneling and camping. Mangled makes it really hard for solo que players to help take hits for someone being tunneled, and some determined campers are camping from a distance to the point where players are going to Stage 2 before the anti-camp bar fills. They still have to catch the person, but they still get the person dead on hook, and Mangled keeps other survivors from helping very much.
Like I said, I'm curious to see what they ultimately do.
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Took the words right out of my mouths...
The 7.5.0 update wasn't a complete mess but it had some of the most unhealthy and ill-thought-out changes in a while.
Hillbilly getting some love is great!
Sadako getting, hilariously enough, her 2nd rework which removed her braindead spam-teleport playstyle was also great!
Most perk changes were great, or at least not bad for the game.
But the STBFL change was such a huge blow to weaker/M1 Killers that was utterly unnecessary. Literally all it accomplishes is weaken it's chase potential, synergy with most Killers and encourage tunnelling while not fixing the only problematic part of the perk. All that was needed was neuter it's camping and tunnelling potential by deactivating the perk when too close to a hooked Survivor and not work on basekit BT.
Then came the "3-gen solution" that really, again, only hurt weaker Killers by punishing them in lategame for defending gens during the trials, destroying tons of perks and adding yet another thing to keep in mind. S-tier Killers don't care about this system because they never needed much regression outside of Pop and Pain Res (which are ironically basically the only valid regression perks anymore due to their high payoff per procs compared to every other regression perks and non-regression kick perks (Nowhere to Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment etc.)) while weaker Killers that used a larger variety (especially Surge) got punished even if they don't 3-gen. This only further encourages tunnelling to compensate for weaker gen-defense.
Quite frankly, I'd be more than happy if the system only triggered after thr 4th gen is done (and judging by the comments and videos from the Gen-system feedback thread, most people would be) and kicks would go back to 2.5%, 5% is nothing anyway and having a base 5% just makes kicking gens with the Knight's guards not special. The removal of gen-tap alone was a great addition and the system itself isn't horrible (endless 3-gen games are indeed annoying) but it does way more than simply prevent endless 3-gen games.
The future Mangle nerf is just an additional slap in the face of M1 Killers. Instead of killing of the last good perk that Nurse and Blight can't use as well as the weaker Killers why not buff certain healing perks (Resurgence, Reactive Healing etc.) by making the healing progress gained through those perks impossible to regress or at least give like a 40 seconds window where Hemorrhage can't regress it? This would be much healthier and encourage Killer and perk variety instead of making viable options less common and accessible.
I still hold hope, foolish as it may be, that at some point the gen system will be reworked to only trigger at 1 gen remaining...
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No idea but even with sloppy, you get a full heal. It’s just slower.
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Yeah, it seems to be the case. The odds are I'm just an idiot lmao
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Mangled is a problem when designing anti healing perks because killers can just stack mangled on top of that. That's why anti healing perks like leverage are so garbage. If they were buffed killers could combine them with mangled and it could quickly spiral out of control. Mangled getting a balance change opens the door for more diverse anti healing options and I think that's a good thing. Currently the only anti healing perk everyone uses is sloppy butcher because mangled and hemorrhage just do everything you could ever want from an anti healing perk.
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Can't wait for the people to complain that Killers only run gen slowdown and not other perks when sloppy gets nuked and disappears from the top 10 pick list
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This gets said every time. "If we nerf X, we can buff Y!" But then X gets nerfed and Y is never buffed, and the whole thing is forgotten about.
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I still don't understand why everyone acts like A: STBFL was especially useful on M1 killers compared to others and B: the nerf it received actually affected those killers more than others.
M1 killers, definitionally, didn't have a way to preserve stacks before, so they won't actually notice the stack-loss nerf. They'll only notice the slight number nerf, which isn't that big of a deal. If anything, it's actually more useful on those killers now, because you're no longer comparing its use on them to its use on killers that could damage without an M1.
To the overall point, there's a pretty massive glaring flaw in the premise and a few smaller flaws with some specific reasoning. The massive flaw is that killer perk variety is pretty damn good now and that stacking gen defence over everything else is a choice, not a necessity forced on you by the MMR system or overall perk changes.
The only other thing I'd want to highlight is that chase + info perks are both pretty good overall right now, not even counting individual utility perks like how Agitation has always been good and stealth perks have been buffed pretty noticeably. Even some of the ones you listed are pretty good- Enduring is a very nice pick on its own and very strong when paired with Spirit Fury, Brutal Strength is a nice perk that affects your overall downtime more than any one chase, and Dissolution is just kinda finicky, not bad.
As an aside, Fire Up does actually have a reason to bring it, but I'll grant it's pretty niche. If you're facing a flashlight squad and don't want to stop them from trying to blind you by bringing Lightborn, bringing Fire Up will mess with their timing because it affects pick up speeds. Not much, I'm not really arguing with it being on your list, I just like spreading the good word on that front lol
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The STBFL nerf is a big deal because it nerfed it's chase potential while arguably encouraging it's only problematic aspect: it's ability to camp and tunnel better.
M1 Killers, by definition, have longer chases (on average) and aren't necessarily devoid of an M2 attack (Pig and Pinhead are essentially M1 Killers since they use M1 for almost every attacks (add-ons excluded) and their M2 has next to no use in chase damage outside of potential mindgames if the Survivors are decent) and STBFL compensated for that weakness.
But it's not just because M1 Killers benefited from it, it's because it was one of the handful of good chase perks that the powerhouses (Nurse, Blight, Wesker to some extent etc.) couldn't really use as well as the other Killers that don't use M2 for 99% of their attacks. Most powerful perks are made even stronger when used by those Killers but STBFL wasn't.
STBFL was also a way to make bodyblocks riskier and Endurance less punishing (arguably the only soft-counter to FTP+Buckle Up).
The other issue with the nerf is that by removing a way to avoid losing stacks they are essentially encouraging tunnelling and completely ignoring one Survivor (not exactly fun gameplay). This is especially true when it comes to unhooks.
STBFL was always a powerful tool for tunnelling and camping, and it was it's only problematic aspect, and now they weakened it's chase potential but also didn't touch the one problem with the perk. By removing a way to avoid losing stacks, a nearby Killer has NO REASON to not tunnel if the Obsession is the rescuer. The nerf essentially makes the perk worse in chases but barely touches it's camping and tunnelling strength.
Literally all they had to do was deactivate the perk when too close to a hooked Survivor and not work on basekit BT. Everything else about the perk was fine.
There's also the fact that they managed to mess up the nerf by making it so some M2, even if they do no damage, will remove stacks, killing the perk even more (Trickster will lose 2 stacks for each knife hit and Deathslinger will lose stacks just by landing a harpoon even if the Survivor doesn't lose a health state for example, leading to losing 8 stacks in one encounter with the Obsession).
The biggest complaint isn't that the nerf made the perk worse, it's that it made it worse in every aspect except the one it should have been worked on and that it only discourages Killer variety since the stronger Killers never cared that much for it but lots of weaker Killers did use it.
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I kinda hope Sloppy gets the MFT treatment and becomes more or less extinct from the game. Everyone has that one perk they just hate to see and for me that's Sloppy by a long way. But it's not the mangled status effect that annoys the most, it's the healing regression caused by hemorrhage and as far as I know, that won't be changed in coming update anyway. If Sloppy caused one status or the other it wouldn't be so miserable to face, but both together in one perk is a nasty combo.
I doubt mangled will receive too much of a heavy nerf and I'd be surprised if they changed it radically, since most Killers are performing more or less as well as BHVR would like them to be.
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Sure, some of that's a fair complaint, but it's also a very different complaint. People do keep saying very specifically that STBFL especially shined on M1 killers (it didn't, it shone on hybrids that had an M2) and that the nerf is especially damaging to M1 killers (again, not really, only some of them even have a relevant special attack to begin with).
I absolutely, categorically, emphatically disagree that STBFL encourages tunnelling. It doesn't. It just works while you're tunnelling, which isn't even close to the same thing. People are making the choice to tunnel and STBFL is helping, there is absolutely zero pressure to make that choice to begin with. Even if you're nearby and the Obsession is close, that's a choice; do you lose stacks, find someone else, or tunnel? Finding someone else might be throwing the game, but those other two decisions have equal weight.
There is no real encouragement to tunnel in this game other than that it's easy and can't be reliably punished, and I don't think it's helpful or healthy to try and pin the choice on anything other than the player making it.
For the second to last paragraph, I was under this misconception too, but it's not actually messed up. It's just that there is literally only other one perk that works this way, Play With Your Food, which also loses tokens from the same things.
Because most other Obsession perks also require damaging to function, rather than just attacking, I was under the impression only damaging M2s were counted as "special attacks", but that's wrong; individual Trickster knives and Deathslinger's harpoon are special attacks, it's working as intended.
I think it's really dumb and should be changed, but it's not a mistake.
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Before the nerf it didn't encourage tunnelling, although it was often used like that, but the nerf did exactly what it shouldn't have done: Weaken it's chase potential and essentially remove incentive to not tunnel and proxy-camp to maximize use out of the perk without really touching it's power in those situations.
If they had just made the perk not work in camping/tunneling scenarios then it would have made Killers more inclined to chase in order to get full power and value out of the perk.
While it's ultimately a player's decision, the current STBFL basically incentivize tunnelling if the Obsession goes for a save, it's undeniable. If at least M2 wouldn't make you lose stacks it wouldn't be quite as bad but there's literally no workaround to losing stacks.
I think most people often lump "M1" and "weaker/average" in the same basket (that's why is usually use "weaker/M1" instead of just saying "M1") since, well, M1 Killers are not really among the stronger Killers.
Again, if the perk was also good on Nurse and Blight/Wesker then people wouldn't be so outraged but this nerf only hurt weaker/M1 Killers and reduced perk & Killer variety. Just like the "Anti-3-gen" system and just like the incoming Sloppy nerf.
DBD's advantage over every other assyms is it's variety in nearly all aspects, but it's dwindling and it's recently been made worse.
I knew about the PWYF thing, I was saying "mess up" as in "made a bad decision" XD
The worst thing is that only minor changes are needed to fix the 7.5.0 mistakes, most of the update was fine, but I honestly don't really see a point in playing weaker Killers anymore due to options being more and more limited. I honestly don't think I've been in more than 3 games in a row without the Killer's build being some combination of Pain Res, DMS, Grim Embrace and something else (usually either Pop or an info perk) and someone getting tunnelled at 5 gens. It's becoming stale fast and unless BHVR reverts some things then I don't really see playing a variety of Killers and perks being appealing.
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They did say they wanted to make room design wise to make new perks without worrying about people stacking sloppy on top of it.
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All pretty good points, and I hope it doesn't tie into my worries about them adding so much haste to the game.
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Honestly they should just remove the healing regression from Sloppy Butcher. I feel like that’s the issue, having both Hemorrhage and Mangled together on one perk/addon that is easy to apply. Mangled on its own is fine imo.
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I agree. Sloppy was fine before Hemorrhage was buffed (when the Mangled was the only real reason people used it at all). The Circle of Healing self-heal meta killed Sloppy for a little while, but prior to that it was a decent perk.
Gift of Pain is the one thing I think should keep both status effects, since it is a scourge hook which makes it harder to get and can only be applied a limited number of times. But Sloppy Butcher and most addons which have both status effects should lose one of them. So this would include these addons:
-Blind Warrior White (Wraith)
-Begrimed Chains (Hillbilly)
-Begrimed Head (Huntress) - Huntress already has another addon (Rusty Head) which gives Mangled by itself. So either this addon would have to become Hemorrhage only (and probably be moved to green rarity instead of purple), or just rework it altogether.
-Thorny Nest (Artist)
-Tilling Blade (Dredge) - this one I actually wouldn't nerf since it is already on a timer and pretty situational since it only works during nightfall and on healthy survivors.
-Powdered Glass (Skull Merchant)
-Straight Razor (Chucky)
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It's always the same, any perk that benefits M1 killers without having an effect on the top tier ends up nerfed. At the end of the day they want these killers to stay weak, they need some party clowns.
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Slowdown perks have always been the most popular perks. But chase and movement speed perks are literally more popular now than theyve ever been so?
Also sloppy is a slowdown perk... It slows down healing
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Most ironic part is Clown has 58% kill rate.
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