It’s no longer an exaggeration… everyone is tunneling
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Old debate and I generally don't bother with this anymore but it's amazing there hasn't even been a (bad) attempt at a solution yet.
As a mostly killer player I have to actively try AVOID tunnelling because the game gives me so many 'here is this weak link, you should kill them' signs. In between killers knowing IMMEDIATELY when someone is off hook, the weak link being wounded and thus making huge 'here I am' sounds to the killer, even if they run DS and/or Off the record it's still more profitable to go for the hooked survivor first then it is spread hooks out. A healthy survivor takes two hits to down, so does one fresh off the hook with Off the Record.
I've read loads of good anti tunnel suggestions. The easiest and least game changing is simply removing the unhook notification and delaying the interface for the killer and adjusting perks that work when someone is taken off hook. The amount of killer players that immediately change direction the second they hear that damn unhook notification is ridiculous. The fact there isn't even a perk to silence it+delay the interface when either you unhook someone or you get unhooked is equally ridiculous. A band-aid fix to be sure but it's better then two perks which are of questionable value as anti tunnel.
Obviously any change would come with some level of compensation killer buffs seeing how ingrained tunnelling is in the meta/balance. Likely giving the killer other forms of intel, making gens take longer, making totems do something (which also doubles as totem survivor challenges not throwing the game anymore) but whatever, if ANYTHING happens it'll be an improvement if tunnelling is meaningfully dealt with.
Alternatives I've seen for anyone who cares.
- Teleporting hooks similar to pyramid head cages. Killer is completely oblivious to where the victim is (would require major changes)
- Hooking somebody 3 times does not kill them. You need a total of 5/6 hooks to kill your first victim regardless of how many times one person has been hooked. You still need to hook anyone else three times as normal. So in theory you could get 15 hooks total. Killer is thus discouraged to go after the same person because it's inefficient as opposed to efficient like it is now.
- Survivors off the hook do not make noise, bleed or give off loud noise notifications (e.g fast vaulting) for 90 seconds no matter what
There's others I've thought of but it all feels like a waste of time.
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The problem is the amount of slowdown that is used now. Every game is just four slowdown perks AND tunneling on top of it. Maybe sometimes you get three slowdowns and an info perk. The amount of time you lose to grim embrace alone is INSANE if you actually add it up. I think it's the equivalent of the time it takes to do around three gens if you assume three survivors are on different gens. Now add Pain Res, DMS, and Corrupt on top of this. Does no one else think this is ridiculous? How is any normal team supposed to beat a high tier killer that runs all of this? It's not like these perks deactivate once someone has been tunneled out. You can still get value out of them in a 3v1.
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"Obviously any change would come with some level of compensation killer buffs"
See that's where it's hard for me to support basekit anti-tunnelling changes. It would 100% come with killer compensation (much in the way the 3gen solution did), and for someone like me who only sees tunnelling in about 10% of my games and isn't overly bothered by it, I'd hate that.
I think the best option would be to give some actual helpful anti-tunnel perks, instead of the (quite frankly) bland perks we've been getting lately. That way, killers who want to tunnel can still do so but at a risk. And survivors who experience tunnelling in most of their games have additional means of countering it, while those of us who don't see it as heavily can continue as we are.
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The first chase alone should last long enough for 2-3 gens to be finished, depending on killer perks and spawn locations (except against a cracked Nurse, ok). The full map is available to the survivor, all the ressources, WoO + propably one exhaustion perk.
I wonder how some SOLO teams manage to do this, even against killers with thousands of hours, even on stream? Killrate must be over 90%.
And body blocks are a whole other story. I've seen so many survivors f*** this up, like trying it in the wide open when the killer can just run around them, running BEHIND the killer for a minute or longer and the tunneled survivor entering complete panic mode, running around like a headless chicken. Or survivors even going down, giving the killer immense free pressure that can never be undone.
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We already know that this killer main talk (i am at this point one aswell) is all bullshit. The Lights Out event clearly showed it has nothing to do with perks, fast genspeed or unfair maps or whathever, they simply tunnel because they can - end of the story.
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The game's balance is just not forgiving enough for survivors until they have played hundreds or sometimes thousands of hours. I feel like some killers will play for a hundred hours or so, do well and just assume that survivors are inherently less talented than they are, without taking any time to consider that maybe the game's systems are just more punishing for survivors learning the game. This is why killers do extremely well at lower MMR and gradually get weaker as they climb the MMR ladder.
Whilst I understand that survivor nerfs have to happen to maintain balance at the highest MMR, we can't just pretend that those nerfs don't keep raising the skill floor for survivors who haven't been playing the game for the last few years at least. A survivor with a hundred hours or so is not going to be able to make tunneling a losing strategy against a killer with a similar amount of experience.
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If its too good we might end up in a slugging meta
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Every killer need to tunnel to reach the average kill rate, that means killer would have much lower kill rate if they are not tunneling.
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What we need is a choice-based play system for beginners, rather than a public system that applies to everyone.
Like modern and classic in Street Fighter 6. Modern, which has inferior overall ability but is strong against tunnels and camps, and is easy to survive until the end. It will be a kind game.
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I genuinely have no idea how you balance this game. It's probably impossible to do. If I could do one thing, I'd force every survivor to start off wearing WoO. Would it be a crutch? Yes. Would it help survivors get past the game's skill floor? Somewhat.
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Tunneling is just the most efficient strategy in the game
why bother going for fresh hooks if you can come back straight to the saved survivor to hook them again?
The fastest the game is 3x1, the better for you
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So explain if it is a team game how if I die on hook and 3 people get out my mmr goes down. Also just because people don't play the way you want to does not make them immature. They could say the same about you and say you need to learn to have fun and stop being so uptight.
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Incredibly well said 👏👏👏
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while you do lose MMR for dying, you do gain mmr for the 3 survivors who escaped.
Team Based Ratings
With escapes being the win condition for Survivors, dying heroically to save your team can feel a little anti-climactic. We’re introducing Team Based Ratings to remedy this. Your rating will adjust based on not only your own performance, but the team’s performance as well. Sacrificing yourself to save the team won’t be nearly as punishing.
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Facecamping got removed (thank goodness), and 3-genning got removed (again, thank goodness). Now, players who would resort to these strategies are tunneling, like the other players who tunnel by default. On top of this, there are still killers who are skilled but will pull out the odd tunnel now and then because it is the correct play.
So few people bring DS and OTR these days that tunneling isn't as dangerous for the killer as it once was. It used to be that killers were hesitant to tunnel for fear of DS. Now, anti-tunnel perks are rare, so tunneling is more likely to work out.
I think BHVR is definitely going to do something about it, though, because tunneling is now one of the biggest problems. However, similar to camping, it won't entirely go away, because there are still situations where tunneling is the right play.
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I think some regions are worse than others as I just don't see constant tunnelling in my region (OCE).
But I do watch streamers in EU or NA and I notice hard tunnelling is a lot more common there and I feel bad for the newer players who aren't really equipped to deal with this and it ruins the game for them.
Even sadder is the fact that the players being tunnelled out are often weaker anyway and tunnelling them would never have been necessary to win in the first place
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Tunneling is like one of the best things kilers can do to win and are they guilty for doing what they can to win tunneling can be easily prevented by the devs but more problems will come out and more complaining from sarvivors and killers
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Are you saying the same Demo I just went up against twice in a row, yes IN A ROW, feels guilt for tunneling me out in both matches?
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you didnt undertand what i mean .I meant like is the killer players the problem that tunneling is a valid strategy and they are doing what they can too win.
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This is really facts!
The problem I've noticed in my games is that most survivors suck with the one skill based interaction that they have with the killer and that's looping. A tunneling killer will waste so much time tunneling a good looper. However in reality a majority go down in 20 seconds max if not less.
I can't tell you how many matches I've played recently with people that I've hooked being unhooked and tea bagging or clicking just to use their bk bt or decisive and then get mad when I hook them again. Or the unhooker who turned out to be the better looper just runs and hides instead of taking chase.
I learned that most people do not want to take chase after the unhook which screws the hooked person over.
To further prove your point I watched a super popular content creator today play about 7 matches he hard tunneled in most of them and in the first 4 he only got 1-2k the others where similar until he switched to his main, while he was hard tunneling one surv the others were just smashing gens, the saves all came either before second stage or just a tiny bit earlier. Thing was after the save no one healed under hook and at least 2 to 3 gens popped within seconds. Some were solo and some where swf. Thing is they all understood the game and the assignment.
Tunneling sucks for newer survivors I get it, it used to drive me crazy as well but it's also bitter sweet the more your tunneled the more practice you can get at looping and chase, and that's a fact you can't get better at looping if your not being chased or only being chased rarely. Having this positive outlook turned something negative into a positive for me and made it less of a annoyance and more of a personal practice per se.
The problem is with solo q and how you can have 10k hour killer playing against 2 500 hours or less, 1k hour, and 4k hour survivor. Obviously this doesn't happen all the time but it happens enough to make tunneling valid at high levels. Any equally skilled group of coordinated survivors should be able to heavily punish a tunneling killer, the only way this doesn't happen is if your not as good as you assume you are and the killer happens to in fact be better. The same goes for killers that cry about WOO, distortion, adrenaline or any other good but no where near op survivor perk.
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We do have camping still, or haven't you noticed?
What would you like us to do? Please, enlighten! Seriously. Start the game,
go to gen, hide/take chase. These are the options. What do you do as a survivor? Again, I need enlightenment!Yes, again it is the survivors fault the killer decided to tunnel. Remember that survivors. You brought this upon yourself.
J/k, this is never the case. Ever.
Cool. BHVR is still a company that wishes to grow. They are not growing atm. Things need to change, and the biggest issue with new player retention is tunneling. Based on personal experience and the words of others.
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Man, what a fun game! For all 5 players!
I feel ya. These slowdown perks are brutal, but not unbeatable. I'd personally like to see tunneling dealt with instead. It's still the 'issue' of the month.
Preach it!
A tunneling killer will waste so much time tunneling a good looper. However in reality a majority go down in 20 seconds max if not less.
But the argument goes they will find the weak link, and tunnel.
Tunneling sucks for newer survivors I get it, it used to drive me crazy as well but it's also bitter sweet the more your tunneled the more practice you can get at looping and chase, and that's a fact you can't get better at looping if your not being chased or only being chased rarely. Having this positive outlook turned something negative into a positive for me and made it less of a annoyance and more of a personal practice per se.
A new player who gets tunneled a few times in their exploratory time with the game... will not continue playing the game. Tunneling has zero place in a new player's lobby. Not sub 5 hours lol.
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Why wouldn't they? Tunneling is a pretty effortless way to easy wins, so of course a lot of people will do it.
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It all started with the huge mistake that was removing BBQ and Chilli's bonus points.
You were already warned that there would be consequences after removing totally legitimate strategies from the game, such as 3gen, hook grabs or camping. Every change with such an high impact on the gamplay requires some type of compensation to maintain the balance. And the players have already taken care to find that balance, the killrate is still around 60% thanks to eveyone tunneling game after game...
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But most of the meta is locked behind a DLC paywall. It isn't ideal, but this is how the game works.
Everyone is thrown to the wolves, but the wolves will always have to think about a potential stun. As you've said, it doesn't completely fixes things, but I think it will help.
At least it should put an end to the sheer wave of tunneling we're currently seeing.
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Don't count on it mate
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If this is how BHVR wants to achieve those numbers, I suppose its time to start considering the worst option.. dun dun duuunnn...
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And i have said it also 1.3 billion times. The game would be in a much healthier state if they stopped balancing for kills and instead balanced around chases and hooks.
The problem is, that the current state of the game means that it is not POSSIBLE at a high level to win without some degree of tunneling. (I.E. focusing 2 survivors out). Because the game is simply not balanced in a way that allows 4 survivors to be alive for anything more than a few minutes, or the killer will not be able to outpace the survivors on the gens, no matter how much pressure they exert. With the exception of nurse and blight, who can end chases extremely quickly.
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Yup and feels like othet stragedies has lost their effectiveness even more. Before it felt you could won playing fairly without it being that ineffective.
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"A new player who gets tunneled a few times in their exploratory time with the game... will not continue playing the game. Tunneling has zero place in a new player's lobby. Not sub 5 hours lol."
My brother in Christ this a matchmaking problem not a tunneling problem. New killers when matched with new survivors stilll will not be successful in tunneling as neither is going to know what is going on. The issue like I stated is with matchmaking. There's not a competitive multiplayer game thats been out past 5 years that is going nice to beginners once again because of matchmaking.
The learning curve from newbie to mediocre at this game is around 500 to 1k hours and that's being generous. At this point in the games life being new your gonna get you teeth kicked in every bit of that time because there aren't enough new players to be matched with consistently.
The fact still remains that against GOOD survivors tunneling just isn't effective. Nothing will stop hardcore tunneling aside from making the unhooked invincible, but even then people will still tunnel the weakest and that survivor will always die first as they should.
This game will never be friendly to newer players simply because they make up to small of a percentage of the player base to be properly matched with like skilled players. DBD isn't still alive due to the constant influx of players, its here because we are all guttons for pain and there's nothing remotely close that even begins to scratch that DBD itch. You can't balance a 7 year old game for new players I'm sorry just not gonna happen.
Now that new players have been addressed, how in the world do competent survivor mains get out played by tunneling unless they're not as good as the the player they're going against.
What people should be asking to get rid of is blood lust since a vast majority of survivors according to this forum can't loop long enough to prevent tunneling and blood lust solely closes that gap between a god looper and bad killer it's no longer needed.
Because we can all be honest here a tunneling killer can't be bad at the game and still win IF the survivors are good right?
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My brother in Christ this a matchmaking problem not a tunneling problem. New killers when matched with new survivors stilll will not be successful in tunneling as neither is going to know what is going on. The issue like I stated is with matchmaking. There's not a competitive multiplayer game thats been out past 5 years that is going nice to beginners once again because of matchmaking.
I can totally get behind this. I've never even considered this. So I agree! We could get into matchmaking now, but it's totally on BHVR if this is where we end up.
Also, as a vet player, tunneling is still an issue because it seems to be all I get anymore. I played 2 hours yesterday after work and out of the 8 games I got in, 5 tunneled right from the start. 2 spread hooks and 1 was new or something. I gave them my life.
If anything, I'd like to have less tunneling. Variety and all that. Plus skilled killers are always more fun than the dime a dozen peasants :)
edit: at work so cant fully reply. But ty! Fresh perspective is nice.
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Oh of course I'm not advocating for hard tunneling as I don't tunnel myself. I also know when some one is new I purposely let them feel out what to do. I as former nurse main I've learned that there's more to the game than winning. While tunneling can be a valid strat it becomes less effective the better the survivors are.
Yeah matchmaking is terrible which is why I tell most killers to let matches go, if you get bullied the next team isn't to blame because they're more than likely gonna be a solo squad with way less hours.
I hate that most of these post are just black and white us vs them instead of actual productive discussions.
The lose of bloodlust basekit would suffice and raise the skill expression of killer as well. Let's be honest the only killer that would suffer is hag who should be 4.6 anyway by now.
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I've seen streamers that don't tunnel so "everyone" is 100% exaggeration lol. Not a good start lying in the topic.
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Maybe the threat of DS alone will reduce it but I'm really not certain that this will be enough. There is no alternative to DS after all.
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Correct. And after a week,
killers/players will be here complaining about DS and how they can't win now. There's no problem that will be fixed without creating more. Humans are involved, after all. A central hub that could find the sweet spot would be great! But we have BHVR. So lets see if this DS change is even a meaningful one...1 -
Playing for hooks is only fun for the survivor
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Tunnelling is definitely a problem, but I think the game is generally balanced around the idea of pressuring 1/2 survivors more than the others and making sure someone is eliminated around the 5/6 hook mark. The game is unfortunately not balanced around spreading hooks too much and there is also a massive sore winner problem in this community which puts people off playing nicely.
Seriously, forget sore losers, a lot of the time when I play for fun and maybe only end up with a decent number of hooks and a 1K I get trash talked in end game. People say not to let this affect you, but it does. And it will affect a lot of the playerbase. Playing for hooks is fun for survivors but as killer you are actively hindering yourself if you play this way. Sometimes it’s a fun challenge, but is it appreciated? Not really. So play how you want to play and if the devs want to make tunnelling impossible that’s up to them to sort.
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100% agree, its so BS and all killer mains say oh well do better. How many of your matches are people killing themselves on the hook or just giving up and standing around? The tunneling exists and camping, who cares how the old twin was, this is still CURRENT DBD. And the dead mans, surge, pain res combo is the same as dead hard, spine chill and those perks are useless now but the killer meta still stands strong. Most of my team mates just give up, the meta is way killer sided. On top of all of it they talk about nerfing adrenaline? That gives you a post gen completion boost, if your going to do that then nerf no-ed, whats the difference? One health state versus full end game insta down if you cant find the totem. Sure that makes sense.
I played 3 matches where we the survivors looped the killer, finished all gens, they only got 3 hooks the entire game and then got 4 K because of No-ed, camping the totem and slugging. The killer sided-ness is unreal.
Then you add, tombstone, iridescent head and all the other BS insta-kill add-ons. Swear to god they are nerfing survivor perks into nothing but strengthening killer perks.
Literally haven't played a match that doesn't last 2-3 min for one reason or another in a while this game is becoming a waste of time.
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If tunneling should still be stopped, a system must be established that balances the merits of the killer distributing the survivors evenly and the demerits of tunneling.
Would you all here agree if I were to convert a Survivor's Hook State +1 directly into the number of hits they can withstand from a Killer?
At first, all survivors will fall with 1 hit, but when they are rescued from the hook, they will instantly recover 2 and fall with 2 hits. A Survivor whose hooked state has progressed to 2 will be rescued, healed to 1 hit, and will not fall until he receives 3 hits in total. Attacks from chainsaw and the like will hit him as 2 hit damages.
If things go well during the first rescue, the survivor will be able to escape fully recovered, and during the second escape, the survivor will be able to withstand at least one attack with only minor injuries. This makes it worth bringing OTR, and the killer will actively try to find survivors who will die in one hit to have a deterrent effect.
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I mean, it's somewhat natural that some killers will stop winning. If you raised your MMR to the max of your ability by hard tunneling every match, then it's only natural that you will lose a lot more after the DS buff, which I'm quite certain will bring it back to 5 seconds. Though I have a feeling, that there will be more to it. Otherwise they could have simply increased the number and thrown it in any patch prior.
I just hope they can avoid that old DS + UB meta. We do not need to relive that. Especially since it would likely lead to the same situation we have now. Tunneling in pretty much every match. After all, if you're going to eat a DS anyway, then it might as well be on your terms.
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You still lose more then you gain.
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They've already tried this with perks but killers just tunnel one person out then use the rest of the perk against a 3v1 especially at 5 gens is almost a guarantee win unless you are a baby killer. One of the biggest problems is killers tunnel to get to high mmr then complain about everything survivors do because they aren't supposed to be in that mmr to begin with because BHVR holds the killers hand.
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This point gets ignored way too much within this playerbase. Folks want to get into the elusive high MMR and when they're in it and find they are actually in way over their heads, they want the game changed for them so they can compete instead of accepting that maaaaybe they need to drop down to a bracket they're more comfortable in after all...
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People say OTR alone is not enough. The plan I proposed would allow him to withstand one more rescue, and if the first rescue goes well, he would be able to return to work fully recovered. Please look carefully. The first survivor will go down in one hit, so the killer will want to target that.
However, if you keep this specification, no one will come to your rescue for fear of being defeated in one hit. Therefore, while someone is hooked, survivors will take a deep wound if receive a hit.
If this system is adopted, tunneled survivors will survive several extra hits, increasing their chances of survival. The Killer wastes a lot of time doing this, so it's easier to target and knock down Survivors who aren't already hanging, increasing overall control. In the first place, the purpose of building a tunnel is to permanently reduce power generation efficiency, and if it is possible to suppress power even temporarily, that is the choice.
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I wasn't talking about otr I was talking about pain res and grim embrace. otr doesn't do anything I just tunnel the survivor after I hit them off hook. That literally wont do anything it will just incentivize the killer to tunnel more then get the other people out in one hit. You have a better chance of punishing the killers points for tunneling and keeping them in the low mmr they belong in and make them lose blood points. Most killers tunnel to play dirty and make people miserable not because they need it to win. Any capable killer can win with no bloodlust and no tunneling camping. Or figure out a way that if a killer tunnels it progresses gens to a point where the killer will not want to tunnel.
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Tbh if they are getting tunneled because they are wearing the same thing that is their own damn fault
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Damn so now killers get to determine to tunnel based off the items we pay MONEY for that's CRAZY. Means that DBD is the first pay to lose game.
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I think a good solution would be to make it so if a survivor is hooked back to back instead of going to the next hook stage the bar will be around where it eneded up when the survivor was saved
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the saved survivor spawns at a random location far away from the hook, something like the winter rift system was
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At least half of my matches have the killer tunnel everyone. They don't even stop after the first kill, it's just 3 hook the same person, then 3 hook the next one. They also camp because they know that the survivors will always go for the save because the match is boring otherwise, and since at least 75% of all matches are on Midwich nobody can find the generators anyway and it takes an eternity to punish the killer for camping.
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