It’s no longer an exaggeration… everyone is tunneling

Options
2

Comments

  • Slowpeach
    Slowpeach Member Posts: 691
    edited March 4
    Options

    Old debate and I generally don't bother with this anymore but it's amazing there hasn't even been a (bad) attempt at a solution yet.

    As a mostly killer player I have to actively try AVOID tunnelling because the game gives me so many 'here is this weak link, you should kill them' signs. In between killers knowing IMMEDIATELY when someone is off hook, the weak link being wounded and thus making huge 'here I am' sounds to the killer, even if they run DS and/or Off the record it's still more profitable to go for the hooked survivor first then it is spread hooks out. A healthy survivor takes two hits to down, so does one fresh off the hook with Off the Record.

    I've read loads of good anti tunnel suggestions. The easiest and least game changing is simply removing the unhook notification and delaying the interface for the killer and adjusting perks that work when someone is taken off hook. The amount of killer players that immediately change direction the second they hear that damn unhook notification is ridiculous. The fact there isn't even a perk to silence it+delay the interface when either you unhook someone or you get unhooked is equally ridiculous. A band-aid fix to be sure but it's better then two perks which are of questionable value as anti tunnel.

    Obviously any change would come with some level of compensation killer buffs seeing how ingrained tunnelling is in the meta/balance. Likely giving the killer other forms of intel, making gens take longer, making totems do something (which also doubles as totem survivor challenges not throwing the game anymore) but whatever, if ANYTHING happens it'll be an improvement if tunnelling is meaningfully dealt with.

    Alternatives I've seen for anyone who cares.

    • Teleporting hooks similar to pyramid head cages. Killer is completely oblivious to where the victim is (would require major changes)
    • Hooking somebody 3 times does not kill them. You need a total of 5/6 hooks to kill your first victim regardless of how many times one person has been hooked. You still need to hook anyone else three times as normal. So in theory you could get 15 hooks total. Killer is thus discouraged to go after the same person because it's inefficient as opposed to efficient like it is now.
    • Survivors off the hook do not make noise, bleed or give off loud noise notifications (e.g fast vaulting) for 90 seconds no matter what

    There's others I've thought of but it all feels like a waste of time.

  • Hermit
    Hermit Member Posts: 383
    Options

    The first chase alone should last long enough for 2-3 gens to be finished, depending on killer perks and spawn locations (except against a cracked Nurse, ok). The full map is available to the survivor, all the ressources, WoO + propably one exhaustion perk.

    I wonder how some SOLO teams manage to do this, even against killers with thousands of hours, even on stream? Killrate must be over 90%.

    And body blocks are a whole other story. I've seen so many survivors f*** this up, like trying it in the wide open when the killer can just run around them, running BEHIND the killer for a minute or longer and the tunneled survivor entering complete panic mode, running around like a headless chicken. Or survivors even going down, giving the killer immense free pressure that can never be undone.

  • TieBreaker
    TieBreaker Member Posts: 581
    Options

    The game's balance is just not forgiving enough for survivors until they have played hundreds or sometimes thousands of hours. I feel like some killers will play for a hundred hours or so, do well and just assume that survivors are inherently less talented than they are, without taking any time to consider that maybe the game's systems are just more punishing for survivors learning the game. This is why killers do extremely well at lower MMR and gradually get weaker as they climb the MMR ladder.

    Whilst I understand that survivor nerfs have to happen to maintain balance at the highest MMR, we can't just pretend that those nerfs don't keep raising the skill floor for survivors who haven't been playing the game for the last few years at least. A survivor with a hundred hours or so is not going to be able to make tunneling a losing strategy against a killer with a similar amount of experience.

  • Brix
    Brix Member Posts: 108
    Options
  • canonjack001
    canonjack001 Applicant Posts: 66
    Options

    Every killer need to tunnel to reach the average kill rate, that means killer would have much lower kill rate if they are not tunneling.

  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 1,026
    Options

    What we need is a choice-based play system for beginners, rather than a public system that applies to everyone.

    Like modern and classic in Street Fighter 6. Modern, which has inferior overall ability but is strong against tunnels and camps, and is easy to survive until the end. It will be a kind game.

  • TieBreaker
    TieBreaker Member Posts: 581
    Options

    I genuinely have no idea how you balance this game. It's probably impossible to do. If I could do one thing, I'd force every survivor to start off wearing WoO. Would it be a crutch? Yes. Would it help survivors get past the game's skill floor? Somewhat.

  • Rudjohns
    Rudjohns Member Posts: 1,893
    Options

    Tunneling is just the most efficient strategy in the game

    why bother going for fresh hooks if you can come back straight to the saved survivor to hook them again?

    The fastest the game is 3x1, the better for you

  • Hexling
    Hexling Member Posts: 657
    Options

    So explain if it is a team game how if I die on hook and 3 people get out my mmr goes down. Also just because people don't play the way you want to does not make them immature. They could say the same about you and say you need to learn to have fun and stop being so uptight.

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,148
    Options

    while you do lose MMR for dying, you do gain mmr for the 3 survivors who escaped.

    Team Based Ratings

    With escapes being the win condition for Survivors, dying heroically to save your team can feel a little anti-climactic. We’re introducing Team Based Ratings to remedy this. Your rating will adjust based on not only your own performance, but the team’s performance as well. Sacrificing yourself to save the team won’t be nearly as punishing.

  • Vorahk08
    Vorahk08 Member Posts: 250
    Options

    Facecamping got removed (thank goodness), and 3-genning got removed (again, thank goodness). Now, players who would resort to these strategies are tunneling, like the other players who tunnel by default. On top of this, there are still killers who are skilled but will pull out the odd tunnel now and then because it is the correct play.

    So few people bring DS and OTR these days that tunneling isn't as dangerous for the killer as it once was. It used to be that killers were hesitant to tunnel for fear of DS. Now, anti-tunnel perks are rare, so tunneling is more likely to work out.

    I think BHVR is definitely going to do something about it, though, because tunneling is now one of the biggest problems. However, similar to camping, it won't entirely go away, because there are still situations where tunneling is the right play.

  • MaTtRoSiTy
    MaTtRoSiTy Member Posts: 1,800
    Options

    I think some regions are worse than others as I just don't see constant tunnelling in my region (OCE).

    But I do watch streamers in EU or NA and I notice hard tunnelling is a lot more common there and I feel bad for the newer players who aren't really equipped to deal with this and it ruins the game for them.

    Even sadder is the fact that the players being tunnelled out are often weaker anyway and tunnelling them would never have been necessary to win in the first place

  • Kalin68
    Kalin68 Member Posts: 10
    Options

    Tunneling is like one of the best things kilers can do to win and are they guilty for doing what they can to win tunneling can be easily prevented by the devs but more problems will come out and more complaining from sarvivors and killers

  • bearr_trap
    bearr_trap Member Posts: 120
    Options

    Are you saying the same Demo I just went up against twice in a row, yes IN A ROW, feels guilt for tunneling me out in both matches?

  • Kalin68
    Kalin68 Member Posts: 10
    Options

    you didnt undertand what i mean .I meant like is the killer players the problem that tunneling is a valid strategy and they are doing what they can too win.

  • Xxjwaynexx
    Xxjwaynexx Member Posts: 291
    Options

    This is really facts!

    The problem I've noticed in my games is that most survivors suck with the one skill based interaction that they have with the killer and that's looping. A tunneling killer will waste so much time tunneling a good looper. However in reality a majority go down in 20 seconds max if not less.

    I can't tell you how many matches I've played recently with people that I've hooked being unhooked and tea bagging or clicking just to use their bk bt or decisive and then get mad when I hook them again. Or the unhooker who turned out to be the better looper just runs and hides instead of taking chase.

    I learned that most people do not want to take chase after the unhook which screws the hooked person over.

    To further prove your point I watched a super popular content creator today play about 7 matches he hard tunneled in most of them and in the first 4 he only got 1-2k the others where similar until he switched to his main, while he was hard tunneling one surv the others were just smashing gens, the saves all came either before second stage or just a tiny bit earlier. Thing was after the save no one healed under hook and at least 2 to 3 gens popped within seconds. Some were solo and some where swf. Thing is they all understood the game and the assignment.

    Tunneling sucks for newer survivors I get it, it used to drive me crazy as well but it's also bitter sweet the more your tunneled the more practice you can get at looping and chase, and that's a fact you can't get better at looping if your not being chased or only being chased rarely. Having this positive outlook turned something negative into a positive for me and made it less of a annoyance and more of a personal practice per se.

    The problem is with solo q and how you can have 10k hour killer playing against 2 500 hours or less, 1k hour, and 4k hour survivor. Obviously this doesn't happen all the time but it happens enough to make tunneling valid at high levels. Any equally skilled group of coordinated survivors should be able to heavily punish a tunneling killer, the only way this doesn't happen is if your not as good as you assume you are and the killer happens to in fact be better. The same goes for killers that cry about WOO, distortion, adrenaline or any other good but no where near op survivor perk.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
    Options

    We do have camping still, or haven't you noticed?


    What would you like us to do? Please, enlighten! Seriously. Start the game, go to gen, hide/take chase. These are the options. What do you do as a survivor? Again, I need enlightenment!

    Yes, again it is the survivors fault the killer decided to tunnel. Remember that survivors. You brought this upon yourself.

    J/k, this is never the case. Ever.


    Cool. BHVR is still a company that wishes to grow. They are not growing atm. Things need to change, and the biggest issue with new player retention is tunneling. Based on personal experience and the words of others.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
    Options

    Man, what a fun game! For all 5 players!


    I feel ya. These slowdown perks are brutal, but not unbeatable. I'd personally like to see tunneling dealt with instead. It's still the 'issue' of the month.

    Preach it!

    A tunneling killer will waste so much time tunneling a good looper. However in reality a majority go down in 20 seconds max if not less.

    But the argument goes they will find the weak link, and tunnel.

    Tunneling sucks for newer survivors I get it, it used to drive me crazy as well but it's also bitter sweet the more your tunneled the more practice you can get at looping and chase, and that's a fact you can't get better at looping if your not being chased or only being chased rarely. Having this positive outlook turned something negative into a positive for me and made it less of a annoyance and more of a personal practice per se.

    A new player who gets tunneled a few times in their exploratory time with the game... will not continue playing the game. Tunneling has zero place in a new player's lobby. Not sub 5 hours lol.

  • Hex_Ignored
    Hex_Ignored Member Posts: 1,660
    Options

    Why wouldn't they? Tunneling is a pretty effortless way to easy wins, so of course a lot of people will do it.

  • CLHL
    CLHL Member Posts: 131
    Options

    It all started with the huge mistake that was removing BBQ and Chilli's bonus points.

    You were already warned that there would be consequences after removing totally legitimate strategies from the game, such as 3gen, hook grabs or camping. Every change with such an high impact on the gamplay requires some type of compensation to maintain the balance. And the players have already taken care to find that balance, the killrate is still around 60% thanks to eveyone tunneling game after game...

  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 10,238
    Options

    But most of the meta is locked behind a DLC paywall. It isn't ideal, but this is how the game works.

    Everyone is thrown to the wolves, but the wolves will always have to think about a potential stun. As you've said, it doesn't completely fixes things, but I think it will help.

    At least it should put an end to the sheer wave of tunneling we're currently seeing.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
    Options

    If this is how BHVR wants to achieve those numbers, I suppose its time to start considering the worst option.. dun dun duuunnn...

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,171
    Options

    And i have said it also 1.3 billion times. The game would be in a much healthier state if they stopped balancing for kills and instead balanced around chases and hooks.


    The problem is, that the current state of the game means that it is not POSSIBLE at a high level to win without some degree of tunneling. (I.E. focusing 2 survivors out). Because the game is simply not balanced in a way that allows 4 survivors to be alive for anything more than a few minutes, or the killer will not be able to outpace the survivors on the gens, no matter how much pressure they exert. With the exception of nurse and blight, who can end chases extremely quickly.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,316
    Options

    Yup and feels like othet stragedies has lost their effectiveness even more. Before it felt you could won playing fairly without it being that ineffective.

  • Xxjwaynexx
    Xxjwaynexx Member Posts: 291
    Options

    "A new player who gets tunneled a few times in their exploratory time with the game... will not continue playing the game. Tunneling has zero place in a new player's lobby. Not sub 5 hours lol."

    My brother in Christ this a matchmaking problem not a tunneling problem. New killers when matched with new survivors stilll will not be successful in tunneling as neither is going to know what is going on. The issue like I stated is with matchmaking. There's not a competitive multiplayer game thats been out past 5 years that is going nice to beginners once again because of matchmaking.

    The learning curve from newbie to mediocre at this game is around 500 to 1k hours and that's being generous. At this point in the games life being new your gonna get you teeth kicked in every bit of that time because there aren't enough new players to be matched with consistently.

    The fact still remains that against GOOD survivors tunneling just isn't effective. Nothing will stop hardcore tunneling aside from making the unhooked invincible, but even then people will still tunnel the weakest and that survivor will always die first as they should.

    This game will never be friendly to newer players simply because they make up to small of a percentage of the player base to be properly matched with like skilled players. DBD isn't still alive due to the constant influx of players, its here because we are all guttons for pain and there's nothing remotely close that even begins to scratch that DBD itch. You can't balance a 7 year old game for new players I'm sorry just not gonna happen.

    Now that new players have been addressed, how in the world do competent survivor mains get out played by tunneling unless they're not as good as the the player they're going against.

    What people should be asking to get rid of is blood lust since a vast majority of survivors according to this forum can't loop long enough to prevent tunneling and blood lust solely closes that gap between a god looper and bad killer it's no longer needed.

    Because we can all be honest here a tunneling killer can't be bad at the game and still win IF the survivors are good right?

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
    edited March 4
    Options

    My brother in Christ this a matchmaking problem not a tunneling problem. New killers when matched with new survivors stilll will not be successful in tunneling as neither is going to know what is going on. The issue like I stated is with matchmaking. There's not a competitive multiplayer game thats been out past 5 years that is going nice to beginners once again because of matchmaking.


    I can totally get behind this. I've never even considered this. So I agree! We could get into matchmaking now, but it's totally on BHVR if this is where we end up.

    Also, as a vet player, tunneling is still an issue because it seems to be all I get anymore. I played 2 hours yesterday after work and out of the 8 games I got in, 5 tunneled right from the start. 2 spread hooks and 1 was new or something. I gave them my life.

    If anything, I'd like to have less tunneling. Variety and all that. Plus skilled killers are always more fun than the dime a dozen peasants :)

    edit: at work so cant fully reply. But ty! Fresh perspective is nice.

  • Xxjwaynexx
    Xxjwaynexx Member Posts: 291
    Options

    Oh of course I'm not advocating for hard tunneling as I don't tunnel myself. I also know when some one is new I purposely let them feel out what to do. I as former nurse main I've learned that there's more to the game than winning. While tunneling can be a valid strat it becomes less effective the better the survivors are.

    Yeah matchmaking is terrible which is why I tell most killers to let matches go, if you get bullied the next team isn't to blame because they're more than likely gonna be a solo squad with way less hours.

    I hate that most of these post are just black and white us vs them instead of actual productive discussions.

    The lose of bloodlust basekit would suffice and raise the skill expression of killer as well. Let's be honest the only killer that would suffer is hag who should be 4.6 anyway by now.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,395
    Options

    Maybe the threat of DS alone will reduce it but I'm really not certain that this will be enough. There is no alternative to DS after all.

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,328
    Options

    Correct. And after a week, killers/players will be here complaining about DS and how they can't win now. There's no problem that will be fixed without creating more. Humans are involved, after all. A central hub that could find the sweet spot would be great! But we have BHVR. So lets see if this DS change is even a meaningful one...

  • Snowbawlzzz
    Snowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,419
    Options
  • HauntedKnight
    HauntedKnight Member Posts: 385
    Options

    Tunnelling is definitely a problem, but I think the game is generally balanced around the idea of pressuring 1/2 survivors more than the others and making sure someone is eliminated around the 5/6 hook mark. The game is unfortunately not balanced around spreading hooks too much and there is also a massive sore winner problem in this community which puts people off playing nicely.

    Seriously, forget sore losers, a lot of the time when I play for fun and maybe only end up with a decent number of hooks and a 1K I get trash talked in end game. People say not to let this affect you, but it does. And it will affect a lot of the playerbase. Playing for hooks is fun for survivors but as killer you are actively hindering yourself if you play this way. Sometimes it’s a fun challenge, but is it appreciated? Not really. So play how you want to play and if the devs want to make tunnelling impossible that’s up to them to sort.

  • Kodak451
    Kodak451 Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 1
    edited March 5
    Options

    100% agree, its so BS and all killer mains say oh well do better. How many of your matches are people killing themselves on the hook or just giving up and standing around? The tunneling exists and camping, who cares how the old twin was, this is still CURRENT DBD. And the dead mans, surge, pain res combo is the same as dead hard, spine chill and those perks are useless now but the killer meta still stands strong. Most of my team mates just give up, the meta is way killer sided. On top of all of it they talk about nerfing adrenaline? That gives you a post gen completion boost, if your going to do that then nerf no-ed, whats the difference? One health state versus full end game insta down if you cant find the totem. Sure that makes sense.

    I played 3 matches where we the survivors looped the killer, finished all gens, they only got 3 hooks the entire game and then got 4 K because of No-ed, camping the totem and slugging. The killer sided-ness is unreal.

    Then you add, tombstone, iridescent head and all the other BS insta-kill add-ons. Swear to god they are nerfing survivor perks into nothing but strengthening killer perks.

    Literally haven't played a match that doesn't last 2-3 min for one reason or another in a while this game is becoming a waste of time.

  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 1,026
    Options

    If tunneling should still be stopped, a system must be established that balances the merits of the killer distributing the survivors evenly and the demerits of tunneling.


    Would you all here agree if I were to convert a Survivor's Hook State +1 directly into the number of hits they can withstand from a Killer?

    At first, all survivors will fall with 1 hit, but when they are rescued from the hook, they will instantly recover 2 and fall with 2 hits. A Survivor whose hooked state has progressed to 2 will be rescued, healed to 1 hit, and will not fall until he receives 3 hits in total. Attacks from chainsaw and the like will hit him as 2 hit damages.

    If things go well during the first rescue, the survivor will be able to escape fully recovered, and during the second escape, the survivor will be able to withstand at least one attack with only minor injuries. This makes it worth bringing OTR, and the killer will actively try to find survivors who will die in one hit to have a deterrent effect.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,395
    Options

    I mean, it's somewhat natural that some killers will stop winning. If you raised your MMR to the max of your ability by hard tunneling every match, then it's only natural that you will lose a lot more after the DS buff, which I'm quite certain will bring it back to 5 seconds. Though I have a feeling, that there will be more to it. Otherwise they could have simply increased the number and thrown it in any patch prior.

    I just hope they can avoid that old DS + UB meta. We do not need to relive that. Especially since it would likely lead to the same situation we have now. Tunneling in pretty much every match. After all, if you're going to eat a DS anyway, then it might as well be on your terms.

  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 1,026
    Options

    People say OTR alone is not enough. The plan I proposed would allow him to withstand one more rescue, and if the first rescue goes well, he would be able to return to work fully recovered. Please look carefully. The first survivor will go down in one hit, so the killer will want to target that.

    However, if you keep this specification, no one will come to your rescue for fear of being defeated in one hit. Therefore, while someone is hooked, survivors will take a deep wound if receive a hit.

    If this system is adopted, tunneled survivors will survive several extra hits, increasing their chances of survival. The Killer wastes a lot of time doing this, so it's easier to target and knock down Survivors who aren't already hanging, increasing overall control. In the first place, the purpose of building a tunnel is to permanently reduce power generation efficiency, and if it is possible to suppress power even temporarily, that is the choice.

  • Hexling
    Hexling Member Posts: 657
    edited March 5
    Options

    I wasn't talking about otr I was talking about pain res and grim embrace. otr doesn't do anything I just tunnel the survivor after I hit them off hook. That literally wont do anything it will just incentivize the killer to tunnel more then get the other people out in one hit. You have a better chance of punishing the killers points for tunneling and keeping them in the low mmr they belong in and make them lose blood points. Most killers tunnel to play dirty and make people miserable not because they need it to win. Any capable killer can win with no bloodlust and no tunneling camping. Or figure out a way that if a killer tunnels it progresses gens to a point where the killer will not want to tunnel.

  • SidTheKid__TTV
    SidTheKid__TTV Member Posts: 37
    Options

    Tbh if they are getting tunneled because they are wearing the same thing that is their own damn fault

  • Hexling
    Hexling Member Posts: 657
    edited March 5
    Options

    Damn so now killers get to determine to tunnel based off the items we pay MONEY for that's CRAZY. Means that DBD is the first pay to lose game.

  • Livion
    Livion Member Posts: 161
    Options

    I think a good solution would be to make it so if a survivor is hooked back to back instead of going to the next hook stage the bar will be around where it eneded up when the survivor was saved

  • Zraith
    Zraith Member Posts: 143
    Options

    the saved survivor spawns at a random location far away from the hook, something like the winter rift system was

  • Man_of_triangles
    Man_of_triangles Member Posts: 302
    Options

    At least half of my matches have the killer tunnel everyone. They don't even stop after the first kill, it's just 3 hook the same person, then 3 hook the next one. They also camp because they know that the survivors will always go for the save because the match is boring otherwise, and since at least 75% of all matches are on Midwich nobody can find the generators anyway and it takes an eternity to punish the killer for camping.