What do you think about the new Invocation?

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  • Bafugaboo
    Bafugaboo Member Posts: 402
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    Hopefully they alter the negatives from the perk. I can see so many fun invocations in the future. Maybe one that shuffles the gens to remove a 3 gen. Or a reveal of some kind.

  • Caiman
    Caiman Member Posts: 2,249
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    It should have remained at 15 charges. I hope that BHVR continues taking feedback into account and buffs it again after release. Then it might be in a good spot. I still want to try to use it, particularly in 3-gen scenarios, to see how much it can do.

    Making the Broken temporary is also a good idea but I'd make it a hefty timer of 120 seconds.

  • zarr
    zarr Member Posts: 898
    edited March 10
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    Awful through-and-through.

    Will paraphrase what I said in my - now of course deleted - PTB feedback:

    Weaving Spiders is shockingly bad, and that's saying something because BHVR releasing bad perks is completely par-for-the-course. What contributes to how perplexing this is is the fact that they decided to create a new perk type for this. Now mind you, with Boons having long become irrelevant (and Illumination sure as hell not changing anything about that) and "Teamwork" perks never even having had a chance to be anything but trash pile fodder, it isn't like we should have come to expect good perks to establish a new perk type. But this is worse than bad, it's bewildering. This is genuinely the worst perk design BHVR has ever come up and out with. The entire concept of "Invocations" is flawed, and the specifics of this one are more than that.

    Starting with the concept, there are multiple significant issues. You have to sit in basement twiddling thumbs to activate this perk. A common complaint about DbD's gameplay loop already is that doing gens for 90 seconds at a time can be boring, but the act of repairing gens at least has various gameplay elements that make it a little more engaging (finding gens, hitting great skill checks, keeping an eye on your surroundings, planning and positioning for escape routes, deciding which gens to do when, perks that interact with gens, ...). Sitting in basement staring at the floor however? For 2 minutes?! What were they thinking?

    The perk can only be used once and deactivates for every survivor for the remainder of the trial if even just one person uses it. That is horrible for solo survivors, where it can mean up to 3 wasted perk slots. The effects do not even stack, all having the perk does is give you a 50% increased invoking time if you join the survivor in basement (as opposed to joining them without having the perk yourself), which is far from worth it even if its effect in and of itself would be. If you get interrupted for any reason (not only by the killer, but things such as needing to help your team, too, of course), the Invocation resets, meaning any time spent was for naught. And then there is the risk associated with being in basement. Getting found and downed in or around there can literally be game-deciding.

    Another conceptual issue is that with the time spent in basement and the associated risks, as well as the idea of even more drawbacks incurred by survivors on top of that, the reward for using the perk has to be massive if it wants to be even just approachingly adequate. And on the killer side you will often only notice the massive impact of such an effect, you won't notice or think about them having just sat in basement doing nothing for minutes. It's a gameplay experience nightmare from the killer perspective too because any effect that would be worth that absurd investment would feel absurd to be on the receiving end of as well.

    On the actual effects side, things aren't looking better. Two minutes of doing nothing is a massive amount of time, let alone spending it in basement. Consider that even looting a chest for 10 seconds is something players usually don't do and feel is a waste of time that can have tangible negative effects on their matches. That you also become Broken for the remainder of the trial after completing the Invocation is ridiculous, it's a massive iability for yourself and your team. And good luck even getting out and away from basement if the killer had even just been anywhere in its general vicinity when they noticed a survivor randomly becoming Broken. And all of this for a reduction of 10 charges on all gens. That's 70 seconds less of potential repair time, for 120 seconds spent in the most dangerous place to be caught out in instead of simply having spent it on gens. And it isn't even really 70 seconds, but effectively 50, given that only 5 gens have to be repaired. And that is of course only if no gens had been repaired prior to the perk's activation (or repaired beyond 80 charges), otherwise it will be even less.

    The perk's abysmally bad. Even No Mither has more going for it than this. An actual killer perk. If I as killer could equip a perk that makes it so at least 1 survivor in my trials is Broken and has to spend 2 minutes sitting in basement uninterrupted and give up a mere 10 gen charges for that, I would take it every time. You would have to be crazy not to.

    If I were to try and attempt to salvage anything from this trainwreck of a design, I think they should reduce the activation time to 1 minute, and make it so you only become Broken the next time you are injured (or immediately if you are already injured), but still for the remainder of the trial from there on out. It also shouldn't lose progress if interrupted. Other survivors can only enter into the Invocation if they have the perk equipped. The time to activate remains the same, but the effects stack (so 10 additional charges shaved off of gens for each additional survivor participating). But those survivors too will become Broken the next time they're injured.

    Post edited by zarr on
  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,682
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    Better than before but still not really worth it. Her aura perk on the other hand looks pretty good now.

    I am glad they are trying out something new though. Hopefully they don’t just give up on it like they did with Teamwork perks.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,331
    edited March 10
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    I agree. This is gonna be a very hard perk to balance. It feels like it could very easily bounce between very bad and way too strong quite easily. I think it will end up being better later on after people stop expecting it a ton right at launch (everyone's gonna be basement checking). However even after it gets better because people aren't expecting it as much will it be "good enough"? I lean towards it being on the weaker side overall at the moment for most matches..however potentially very good in a coordinated 4 man? This perk will need a lot more testing I think to give it a good judgement compared to most perks which are discernible at face value.

    I tend to dislike perk design though that's "bad for solo's and good for swf". I think we should try to aim more for the opposite.

  • felipesegatto1
    felipesegatto1 Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 95
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    it is absolutely garbage. nobody will ever use a perk that has so little value and such an absurd downside that is to be broken all trial

  • jonifire
    jonifire Member Posts: 1,437
    edited March 11
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    Losing a hook State for doing it would be fair and a cool concept.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 2,353
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    The devs gave up on Teamwork perks because survivors don’t use them… with good reason. They have a ton of drawbacks for what is at best a marginal gain. The devs tried bringing Boons back but as we see this didn’t go well either. In my estimate perks of these stripes (teamwork, boon, invocation) create slow down for killers, but they need to be attractive so survivors want to use them. The problem is that to make them attractor they must provide an indelible benefit to survivors. Survivors don’t run them because they hinder more than help, which makes them useless as passive slowdown.

  • ImpressionableTeen
    ImpressionableTeen Member Posts: 33
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    Thats actually a really cool concept for a perk. Imagine losing a hook state for a massive speed burst or endurance, to hit tank for others using a hook state. You would need to stay unhooked to make use of it and stuff. Really really fun.

  • jonifire
    jonifire Member Posts: 1,437
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    I think if you are on death hook you should also be able to use it without a downside.

  • Yippiekiyah
    Yippiekiyah Member Posts: 450
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    All it needs is the permanently broken status changed to a timer

  • FunkadelicPeach
    FunkadelicPeach Member Posts: 20
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    you get 70 seconds of generator progress (actually only 50 seconds, because 2 of the gens will never need to be finished) for 120 seconds of work, AND you become wounded and broken? Super bad design and promotes unfun gameplay of people sitting in the basement. If it was 70 seconds of generator progress for 60 seconds of work in the basement, then that would actually finally make sense because there is at least a tangible benefit from doing it? Or it could be 70 seconds of gen progress for 120 seconds, BUT remove the dumb wounded and broken status effect part.