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Adrenaline is being reworked (almost definitely NERFED) confirmed
So this perk - whilst annoying in rare occurrence where 4 people running it does not deserve a nerf imo.
If the killer win rate, at 60-70% it means this perk does very little as it requires 5 gens to be done.
I think if this change is another extreme one, I will then surely know that the Dev's have lost touch with the player base.
I'm hearing people are currently upset with resilience too.. getting speed bonus for being injured. Like... its the same as saying killers shouldn't make survivors exposed for just hooking another survivor (chucky perk).
Where does it end... this needs to stop its really bad.
Comments
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Kill rate does not equal win rate. 60% kill rate is still less than 3 survivors on average and 3 kills is what is defined as a win.
Adrenaline has been complained about on and off for a while now and it's always been a perk that feels awful to face against so it getting a nerfed is pretty understandable.
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This perk fully deserves to be nerfed. Why use Hope or any other perk alike when you can have this one instead? It can save your life, or assist you in bullying the killer, the possibilities are vast. I use this perk in every single of my builds, just because this perk is undoubtedly S tier that can secure you an escape sometimes. It's just too powerful for a single perk to boost your speed by 150% for a few seconds (like Sprint Burst), heal a health state and even fully counter Freddy's power at the same time.
Post edited by SAIKURON on2 -
It's a strong perk - but its pre-requisites are that all gens are done which is majority of the case doesn't even get there.
So like... that's the trade off - You run the game with 3 perks until end game... so yeah it has to be strong. You also have to be the one being chased as if you're fully healed and just waiting for the last gen to pop, what value do you get from it. Nothing.
If the nerf is; it doesn't work when exhausted I might be able to accept - but in typical fashion it I have a feeling it will be ripped apart.
And I should mention, I see the perk 'hope' quite often too It's in the top 20 perks. So not sure you mean about why use anything else.
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There are 2 issues with Adrenaline I'd like to see fixed:
1) It counters Freddy. If it was Nurse, fine. But it's Freddy of all killers!
2) It incentivises slugging over hooking. A slugged survivor is healed to injured while an unhooked survivor is healed to healthy.
Other than that, Adrenaline is fine and I don't think it will be nerfed too harshly.
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Think they will buff it.
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Where was it confirmed it's being reworked?
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Find about Freddy - but it's in the perk name/nature to wake you up. That can be removed and given to Wake up instead lol.
I guess they should remove no mither as it helps Oni get his power too. Can work both ways in some cases.
If you slug, they have a chance to get up and away. and to remove it is easy counter - pick up, drop them, survivor adren kicks in, hit them, pick up and hook.
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I've seen this argument so many times.
If you want to use this argument you're either misunderstanding how statistics work or arguing in bad faith.
60% kill rate roughly equates to an on average, 2.5 kills per game, meaning that survivors are seeing 1.5 people escape on average.
When looking at this statistically, an above average game for killer would mean that they would receive a 15% increase to their kill rates, landing them at 3 kills on an above average match with 1 survivor escaping.
An above average game from the survivors would land them at a 55% escape rate, meaning that even when survivors play above the average match threshold, they are are only getting 2.2 survivors out on average.
2 Kills, 2 escapes is considered a draw for the killer.
So, even while using this example of not equating kill rate and win rate, a below average game for killer statistically equates to a draw, 2 kills on average.
At this point, what more do you want? Draws are a part of the game, the "win rate" should not be 50% or higher, so many people forget that shooting for a 50% win rate means that the spread would look more like 50% win, 30% loss, 20% draw.
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As long as Freddy remains in his current state there shouldn't be any perk that counters him specifically. I mean, he literally has no power in end game against survivors that use Adrenaline. Absolutely none.
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I didn't see anyone here write or suggest 50% win rate is the target.
I personally don't mind the 60% win rate - even though its closer to 70%. I understand the stats as they are being conveyed. The killers overall (the mean of the combined rates) shows this as they are "meant" to be in the killers favour.
Aiming for 2K/2E, espeically with tunnelling and slugging etc, isn't what was being suggesting I dont think.
For those overall rate, nerfing Adren will boost killers win rates more. I don't see anything being suggested in "bad faith" here.
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this is what I meant about No Mither - feed blood right to Oni.
So a survivor coming into a game with that perk, buffs Oni to have his power all game. It can (but yes shouldn't) work both ways, but it does.
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Agreed. Although that can hardly be fixed. Technically, you couldn't get any blood from the No Mither survivor, if it didn't work like that. It wouldn't be too bad but kind of weird.
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The argument of kill rate doesn't equal win rate is always used to justify having the game being balanced in favor of killer because a lot of people will not look further into the actual statistics that are presented.
The only justification for the kill rate and by extension win rate being balanced in favor of killer is the devs saying "it's a horror game, killer should feel like the power role".
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That just confirms a change not a rework. For all we know it's just adrenaline not activating on hook anymore.
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A draw occurs if all participants dont fulfill the win condition. 2 survivors win 2 lose, theyre not an united team.
Does the killer draw against the 2 winners or losers? Nope the killer loses in a 2k.
Unlike Identity V, dbd doesnt judge and score the survivors as a team the killer could draw against.
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What's the point of this change? Punishing the survivor for what reason?
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A 2k is considered a draw by admission of the devs and how the MMR system works...
If you 2k as a killer you neither move up or down in MMR, a draw.
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It's not about punishing survivor players it's about logical constancy.
Being on hook is essentially being broken as you can't be healed until you're taken off the hook. There's no reason survivors should be fully healed while simultaneously dying.
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Adrenaline's nerf is a long time coming surprised it outlived DS DH IW
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No matter how you put, win rate is mostly higher than losing rate.
0-0-4-4-4 (2 lose - 3 win)
2-2-2-3-3 (no lose - 2 win)
1-1-2-4-4 (2 lose - 2 win)
Total: 7 win; 3 tie ; 4 lose
40% on survivor side is always losing 3 out of 5. And this count is Im being generous, because if counting as a team, 1 escape should not be counted in 40% escape because its losing.
Lets do the same thing to survivor side
0-0-4-4-4 (3 lose - 2 win)
2-2-2-3-3 (no win - 2 lose)
1-1-2-4-4 (2 lose - 2 win)
Total: 4 win ; 3 tie ; 7 lose
Should we bring up the win rate for survivor up to 50% then?
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I will wait for your setup 12 kills out of 20 in 5 matches where killer lose more than win.
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Adrenaline...yeah, so survivor plays the game for most of the match with just 3 perks... finally gets their reward when all 5 gens are done... and we're going to nerf that. Sure, is great when you need it (since it risk reward), but turns out to be a waste the other half the time if you are healthy when the gates power. It's basically the only end game perk that actually does something since they shut down every other anti-tunnel.
They really want to give killers every chance.
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killer consider themselves winning when they kill 3 out of 4 survivors or or 4/4 survivors. They lose whenever 4 people escape, 3 people escape or 2 people escape because in all of those instances, the survivors powered exit gate and exited the trial. I am going ignore the 1 escape exit gate and 1 hatch scenario.
60% kill-rate /= 60% win-rate.
I can get
5 games of 4k and 5 games of 2K. This gives me a 50% win-rate with 75% kill-rate
OR
I can have
1 game of 0 kills
2 games of 1 kills
1 game of 2 kills
5 games of 3 kills
1 game of 4 kills
This averages to 23/40 for 57.5% kill-rate and 60% win-rate. Kill-rate is misleading for killer. It says very little for how good a killer is.
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It wasnt about how good/strong killer is. It is about "win rate" as they're talking about. With 12 kills out of 20 survivors, lose rate will never higher than win rate.
If they demand killers should have at least 50% win rate, then survivors should have the same thing. Not bias one side.
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Lol imagine people complaining about Adrenaline a perk that literally requires survivors to complete their objective in order to activate.
Meanwhile ( I know you Us vs Them people don't want to hear it so cover your ears) you have No Ed being activated BY survivors too (you're welcome) and its like crickets, no one saying peep.
At this point spare me your Adrenaline complaints. 🤷♂️
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killer consider themselves winning when they kill 3 out of 4 survivors or or 4/4 survivors. They lose whenever 4 people escape, 3 people escape or 2 people escape because in all of those instances, the survivors powered exit gate and exited the trial. I am going ignore the 1 escape exit gate and 1 hatch scenario.But why do you just get to add that separation between one and two survivors escaping? Like you can consider 2 survivors escaping a loss as killer, you can consider any survivor escaping a loss as killer if you really want to, but its not the actual metric.
This averages to 23/40 for 57.5% kill-rate and 60% win-rate. Kill-rate is misleading for killer. It says very little for how good a killer is.If we're just talking on a purely hypothetical level, you can also get a win rate that higher than 60% (as high as 75%) with a 60% kill rate.
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If you put the number of kill are 0-3-3-3-3, so yes, 4 wins and 1 lose.
I tried with various number, the lowest one is 2 loses, 2 wins and 1 tie. Which means 50/50 win and lose. While that is the highest win rate possible for survivors.
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Given the 60% kill rate:
If you aren't factoring draws at all, I think the highest hypothetical survivor win rate is 53.5%. Over a 100 games that would be 46/47 4ks and 54/53 1ks. Alternatively the highest hypothetical killer win rate could be 80% (I said 75% above, but that was for 20 games) - over 100 games that would be 80 3 ks and 20 0 ks.
If you consider a 2k a survivor win (which I don't, but just for the sake of math), the highest hypothetical survivor win rate becomes an 80% as well (80 2ks and 20 4 ks). Of course if you consider a 2k a draw, this means you can use the same numbers to create a scenario were a 60% kill rate means a 0% survivor win rate.
Of course those are all just hypotheticals. Logically none of those ever happens and your point is correct that higher kill rate logically leads to higher win rate.
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some people do count survivors escaping as loss. I think issue with classifying that as loss is RNG of the game. You have two exit gates on polar opposite side of the map where the killer structurally is not a mobile killer able to defend exit gates. hatch rng can also be poor for killer and then there is consideration of key.
If we're just talking on a purely hypothetical level, you can also get a win rate that higher than 60% (as high as 75%) with a 60% kill rate.
Yes that is correct. It goes both ways. kill-rate is not good stat for describing general strength of killer.
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And suddenly mmr matters.
A 2k is a loss because you didnt win and theres no other team that didnt lose.
It'd be different if the scoring officially was like in IdV but it isnt. (3+ escapes as win for all survivors)
A 2k is 2 survivor wins, 2 lossses and a killer loss.
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I don’t understand why this perk is so problematic. To me it feels a lot like NOED. Both perks are reserved for the end game, theres no guarantee you will get any actual value out of it so it can risk taking up a perk slot and it can either really shift a game or not make much of a difference at all, and both perks are available at the very beginning of the game. The only nerf I could see being fair is that you’re no longer fully healed off hook maybe? And maybe not work against freddy? Even though adrenaline is what wakes the characters up in the movie. Idk. Anything more than that just feels like an overkill.
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We know about it since like 2 months, why all the threads suddenly?
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Shouldn’t work off hook. It’s ridiculous that I get punished for hooking you when people are constantly crying about slugging.
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NOED was nerfed, it's Adrenaline's turn
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I still think perks that stop you bleeding (so No mither and Lucky Break) should also stop you from generating blood orbs. Would only make sense.
And it's not like No mither or Lucky Break are super common, so Oni games would be hardly affected.
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A 2k is a loss because you didnt win and theres no other team that didnt lose.A 2k is a win because you didn't lose and there's no other team that didn't win.
If you want to throw out draws the above makes as much logical sense as the rationale for 2k being a loss.
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Mhm. Youre right. I Probanly should stop posting before 12am when i keep producing such stuff. Too hotheaded recently...
I'd still say it's weird is the only player capable of draw as survivors arent a team. (My point of comparison is identity V's scoring of more than 2 x being a win.)
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My 2 teammates die, its 2-2 both sides are tie.
Killers say Survivors are suppose to play as “team” so win rate counted as “team”.
If 2 escape is lost for Side A (killer). Its lose for side B (survivor)
If you count survivor individual escape as a win. Then 40% escape still 40% lose - 60% win. So both math are flawed.
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I find it hilarious that a single-use perk that has no guarantee of triggering or giving any value is going to receive a nerf, yet the devs just put out an add-on that gives The Unknown free constant value that punishes survivors for doing their only objective that requires zero effort beyond equipping Vanishing Box. The bias toward killers is extreme anymore when they made an add-on like Vanishing Box in the same release as Weaving Spiders.
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This makes no logical sense and seems like an argument out of personal feeling, not reality.
Draws exist whether you want to believe it or not. A 2k is quite literally a draw for killer, I’m not talking about survivor, haven’t this whole discussion.
“Suddenly MMR matters”
Yes lol, that’s how this games matchmaking system works
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I don’t mind if they nerf it to make it more fair, but it has to still be very strong due to it being an endgame perk. Or they could rework it.
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If anyone has a problem with adrenaline as a killer it's because they aren't good to begin with, worst case scenario 4 survivors are running it and you as a killer still had the whole damn game to do your job 5 whole gens , this handholdling is getting crazy at some point people need to just be told they aren't good and the changes aren't necessary.
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....no the killer player secures a draw in the event of a 2k...
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or 2 people escape
2 people escape is a draw. Neither a win or a loss.
If killer want to make this rule for themselve for whatever reason, so be it but those made up rules do not help the discussion. Survivor could also just claim that dying is actually a win as long as two other survivors escpape, you know... just because. But it is simply nonsense. Keep in mind that we are discussing statistics, and not what people feel.
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a draw is when neither side complete their objective. survivor only have one objective. power exit gates by completing all 5 generators and escape. Killers only have one objective. kill as many survivors as possible. for me, I consider winning as killer if i get 3 or 4 kills. conversely, everything else is a loss for me as killer.
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People can put what ever they want as their personal win condition.
For me, I like to get as many hooks as possible, if I end up with like like 8 hook states (like 2 on each survivor for example) I still class myself as doing a good job. Obviously I prefer to kill so yes, guilty of going for the injured person over the healthy one of course.
But the following is confirmed by the devs as the intended win condition for killer -
1 kill = lose
2 kills = draw
3/4 kills = win.
Killers are intended to be stronger than survivor because no one would play otherwise. But also, the game is kinda in the hands of the killer based on how they play - I get that.
But touching a perk like Adren when the win rate is how it is will see killer win rate surge. It just seems unfair that the activation condition is 5 gens and it's being reviewed/changed. The killer in most cases will only chasing one survivor at the end game. So like... the perk kicks on and benefits that one person.
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Sure, nothing wrong with making rules for yourself. However for the discussion, 2 kills / 2 escapes keeps being a draw.
EDIT: You said "a draw is when neither side complete their objective." and that has nothing to do with the actual draw. Killer outcome is disconnected from survivor outcome, since this is not a team based game.
Killer either has 0 or 1 kill (loss) 2 kills (draw) 3 or 4 kills (win)
Survivor on the other hand has only win (escape) or loss (die). You dont win as a survivor when you die but your 3 teammates make it out - it is still an individual loss.
Dont forget 0K = loss.
If there would not be the possibility for 0K, there would not be a draw in DBD since only 4 possible outcomes.
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Agree that Adrenaline should stay untouched.
Disagree on the "get good" argument. We have now MMR, if anything, MMR should be reworked. We cant tell people to get good, they are already placed at their MMR spot playing against other people who should be on the same level of skill.
If the perk would be problematic on all kind of MMRs, then sure, Adren would need a nerf, but i dont think it is.
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Just the flavor of the month. Killers will always have a few things to gripe about as will survivors. BHVR simply chooses to roll dice to see which survivor/killer/perk will get changed instead of listening to feedback. Huntress buff? WhoTF asked for that? There's a lot of times in the pasrt BHVR has done things like this and made us go 'Whoa.. wha.. why?!'
Adrenaline is one of the most balanced perks in the game, but due to it having an explosive impact for 5 whole seconds after a MONSTROUS activation cost, killers still want another hand holding experience. Their tunneling meta and regression binge simply is not enough to satiate ego's. And all this babble of adrenaline needing to be nerfed, and even what a damn draw is, is ridiculous.
Anyway, continue! Very entertaining stuff! :D
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