Ultimate Weapon is fine
Many people claim that Ultimate Weapon is the "strongest info" perk but the data doesn't support this. I've highlighted the most used info perks below, and 3 info perks are used significantly more than Ultimate Weapon:
- BBQ and Lethal Persuer have double the usage rate of Ultimate Weapon
- No Where to Hide has somewhat higher usage.
- Discordance and A Nurse's Calling has similar usage
If UW was really the best info perk, its usage rate should be at the top not lower than 3 info perks.
https://nightlight.gg/perks/viewer?role=killer&sort=pick&shown=pick&start_days=28
The reality is that UW is a perk used specificaly by killers synergise with it and is not a generic strong info perk:
- Alien: ran due to base kit perk
- Trickster and Huntress: locker synergy
- Wesker: 40 m terror radius synergy
- Oni, Nurse, and Blight: high mobility let's them easily proc Ultimate Weapon
Comments
-
Usage Rate =/= Strength
Eruption was a busted perk but it was not used every single match by Killers.
Also you have to consider Killer powers. Killers like Nurse, Wesker, Blight, and Huntress will feel more inclined to bring Aura Reading since it provides more accurate information relevant to their power; all of which are highly used Killers. Ultimate Weapon can still work for them but to a lesser effect. (I know Nightlight says otherwise but Nightlight is not reliable since it is player submitted information which can easily be spoofed or lied about.)
Ultimate Weapon has a stronger effect on other Killers who just need the tracking but not insanely accurate information. Ultimate Weapon also synergies with certain builds/powers seeing how Killers that rely on interactions being interrupted (Sadako, Pig, etc.) can reliable use it.
13 -
1. I've seen UW run on a bunch of different killers not just the ones you listed. Nightlight's statistics are not comprehensive.
2. Ultimate Weapon was only in the shrine for the first time a week ago since then I've been seeing it a lot more often. Keep an eye on it cuz I expect the usage rate to go up.
3. Even if it's not the most used info perk that doesn't make it not the best. Artist is one of the best killers in the game but is one of the least played. Usage Rate =/= power level.
5 -
Its not fine.
In fact, its a bad perk. BBQ/Nowhere to hide are far better, no cooldown, and give aura reading in much better situations.
2 -
yes it was. eruption was 22% pick-rate perk. it was #1 perk followed by pain res. I don't use ultimate weapon on most my builds. the biggest issue is that it alert survivor that they've been spotted which encourages survivor to pre-run and play defensive. It is best used on mobile killers that can close-gap quickly.
Ultimate weapons falls under an anti-meta perk. The main strength is being able bypass distortion and turn off Window of opportunity. It can help support play-styles such as scouting near hook, tunneling survivors off death hook and helping killer close out end games but other information perk are able to do same thing.
they're comprehensive for perks because there is high enough sample size of games to reflect the average appearance rate of perks. We have been waiting for many months for this perk show up in top 10 and it has not shown up in the top 10 both in nightlight stats or developer statistics. In other words, it is balanced.
2 -
I never said didnt Eruption have the #1 usage rate. I said “not every Killer was running it.” A 22% pick-rate is not every Killer. My point being that even if something is meta or the best out there, usage rate is not the best way to determine it since there will always be people who run other things or opt into other options depending on their playstyle.
Also I wouldn’t count Ultimate Weapon as anti-meta.
Distortion is not “meta,” it isn’t the most efficient tactic possible, blocking Aura Reading can be nice but there are better perks and more effective ways of playing the game; likewise Windows of Opportunity is not “meta,” since most people who use it are new players or SoloQ players requiring the information.
Meta’s are defined by WHY people run the perk, not HOW MANY run the perk, the distinction between the two is abundantly obvious since things can be popular but not necessarily be efficient.
3 -
The only thin that night light shows is that the people that uploads their games dont run Ultimate Weapon their prob only 5% of community's stats actually on night light you can't bais stats of something that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME DEVS THEMSELVS BECAUSE THE I FOMATION IS PROB WRONG but let's get real here for a second no survovur is going to post on nightlight anyway when most of their game a missary fest tunnel at gens or proxi camp
1 -
Its info is bad, people dont complain UW for its info.
- Its the no basekit counter against the perk at all.
- Its the high speed killers can instantly spawn to survivors' position (which Aura perks can also do, so this doesnt matter)
- Calm Spirit does not prevent the blindness, and the linger effect for 30sec makes hiding in locker does not work, unless killers think hiding in locker for 30sec for every 1min is a counter, which they do.
- Its the denying 20 aura perks (WoO is a clutch perk blabla) is fine, but for some reason Distortion is complained about.
- And final, denying basekit aura of slugged and hooked teammate, this is the core problem of the perk for me.
Info is not something to complain about UW. Its the insane utility that the perk gives.
7 -
This actually means nothing and does not dissuade a single argument in favor of nerfing Ultimate Weapon.
5 -
Tell me with total seriousness buckle up + For the People is balanced because it doesn't show up in the top 10 anywhere. Usage rate is such a terrible argument for balance
1 -
buckle up+For the people is balanced for top-tier killers because of their mobility & ability machine gun health-states. Buckle up+For the people is imbalanced for m1 killers because endurance/second chance is too strong of time sink. Buckle up+For the people becomes balanced for m1 killer IF they have 8 stack of stbfl and rapid brutality. that is my thoughts.
for reference, i do think that FTP+Buckle up and Background player are top 10 perk for SWF however the issue is that soloq cannot afford to use said perks because of aura reading problems. I.E window of opportunity/Bond/Kindred is too valuable for soloq to use it.
1 -
- Obviously other killers would use it. I just listed the killers that use it the most.
- The perk has been out for months and its usage rate has stabilised at 6-7%, as shown in this chart. Unless the perk gets buffed, its usage won't change significantly.
- There is a big difference between perks and killers. There are far more factors that determine how much a killer is played, e.g. how enjoyable they are, how hard they are to play, and how long they take to learn. For perks, the main thing that determines their usage is how effective they are, which is why the strongest perks are the most used perks, according to the stats.
Eruption was underused before it was buffed. Once it got buffed, almost everyone was running it and 3 genning every match. It was the main factor that started the 3 gen meta.
Also you have to consider Killer powers. Killers like Nurse, Wesker, Blight, and Huntress will feel more inclined to bring Aura Reading since it provides more accurate information relevant to their power; all of which are highly used Killers. Ultimate Weapon can still work for them but to a lesser effect. (I know Nightlight says otherwise but Nightlight is not reliable since it is player submitted information which can easily be spoofed or lied about.)
That's what I said in my post. The main killers that run it are the ones that synergise well with it. It isn't a generic strong info perk that every killer can run.
Actually it does. The data shows that the perk is not as strong as people claim and that it's a mid tier perk. Nerfing a mid tier perk is unwarranted.
Cool but it's still a mid tier perk according to the data.
The big difference is that a 3-4 SWF is needed to effectively use Buckle Up + FTP and 3-4 SWFs are only a small percentage of players. If Ultimate Weapon is really the "strongest info perk", any killer should be able to use it effectively resulting in a high usage rate.
2 -
BU AND FTP counter killer base kit of Tunneling that most of the community does to gain an advantage and a turn the match 80 % in the killer favour so unless people stop tunneling I don't see it ever going away too many killers are boosted mmr with Tunneling and camping and then cry on the forums because their matches Are hard
Post edited by coolgue1 on0 -
“Countering slugging” is when the Killer downs a Survivor and the other Survivor uses FTPBU while the Killer is in the hit recovery animation...
All jokes aside, For The People and Buckle Up isn’t used for slugging since if the Killer is slugging you would not need For The People. This combo is just to instantly undo the Killer’s work in their face and to put them into lose/lose situation (i.e. if you hit the healthy Survivor, the person you were chasing gets distance; if you down the Survivor, your work gets undo and both Survivors get 10 seconds of Endurance).
I don’t see why people defend For The People + Buckle Up as if it isn’t a busted perk combo. (Likewise, Idk why people defend busted perk combos on Killer either.)
3 -
The second point here is my main issue with it. It's overrated and mediocre at best on most killers but it makes the strongest killers even more oppressive. Yeah aura perks already existed, but they at least have some form of counter play where as UW doesn't.
This could also explain its relatively low pick rate. Only a small portion of the killers can use it but when they do it becomes an issue. It's like FTP/BU. Low pick rate because the vast majority can't use it but when they do it's an uncounterable game changer.
A Clown or Trapper with UW isn't a problem but Nurse with it on Midwich is an instant game over.
It should either be reworked into an info perk for slower killers without the Blindness or remove the info side and make it a Blindness perk. It doesn't need both effects.
2 -
thats why the devs have problems fixing the game percent picked means nothing its the combos that work on perks. just like ftp+bu
0 -
BBQ and Lethal are always going to be high in pick rate, because the absolute strongest killers are those that cross the map quickly, and benefit most from receiving a new target when they hook the last one, or to start the match. Something like Hillbilly being able to hook - see new person - hook - see new person is the easiest way to play him.
BBQ especially is definitely more of a fair perk, because it's easy to recognise the patterns that show it's in the game, and there's simple, meaningful counterplay to it. You can reposition yourself on the generator, be closer to the killer, or avoid it entirely with a locker.
Ultimate Weapon FEELS more oppressive to me. Firstly, there is no counterplay. As its trigger is the terror radius, it has already happened by the time anything that COULD warn you it's coming comes. It's also 100% uptime, meaning even if it had some warning, I don't have an option to go get in a locker to avoid it triggering, because I could be stuck there for the next minute or more waiting for it to go away. I don't consider having to bring a specific perk to avoid it as any sort of meaningful counter.
On top of that, it only triggers when the killer is already close to you. With BBQ, you probably get detected by it a lot, but there's still a lower chance of you being picked every time. When you scream, it's nearly always followed by the killer following up on that, so it trains you to hate it more because scream = getting found and chased.
This also isn't a big one for me, but none of the aura reading perks highlighted ALSO provide benefits in chase by giving debuffs to the survivors.
My personal opinion is that:
The range should be decreased so that you can move away when you hear the terror radius.
The cooldown should be vastly increased so survivors have downtime where they aren't constantly on edge about it.
OR It should be changed to trigger in the terror radius only at the end of the locker animation, not a lingering aura for 30 seconds.
5 -
"This combo is just to instantly undo the Killer’s work in their face and to put them into lose/lose situation" And most killers don't do that already by trying to tunneling the weak link out because they can't get downs fast enough i not saying it balanced but it is the only current counter to tunneling in dbd so until their a counter for tunneling that any better than that i don't see why it should go it no that bad and everyone knows OTR and DC are complete trash in the current state even dead hard is trash i mean if dead hard was back to the way it was or even token based for each gen that pooped so u could get more use out of it i think you would see a back off of FTP+BU plus they have to sacrifice 2 perk slots as well as the time they are not on a gen trying to FTP it just helps the killer and hinder the survivors really on top it is base kit for killer they don't have to sacrifice any perk slots to tunnel some out and make the match almost guaranteed to be in their favor and i can tell you over 70% of killers tunnel the weak like almost every game then they have to hide and have no other choice but to do so i mean that why their so many hiding survivors now a day it just killer try's to tunnel some out in 7 minutes then the games over with the game need to be better balance around chase and not about tunneling the first person you see (BTW all of this is not point toward anyone in particular i just saying the way the state of dbd is right now because it quite bad to be honest) their hasn't been a survivor buff in over a years it just the devs trying to kick killers out of boring playstyles that are unbearable to go against like the anti-face camp and ant 3 gen system they are not killer nerfs nor are they survivor buff they are system put in place to stop those particular playstyles from happening
0 -
I gave an idea before to make the perk benefit more for slow killers.
Make aura last for a certain time and disable the moment chase starts. So if Blight/Nurse stats chase within 2sec of aura, they dont get to use the remain aura time. While others get full aura reading. The ability to start chase faster for S tier is already an advantage. They dont need those remain aura of wall hack for a free hit.
1 -
First, you say camping and slugging. Now, you say tunneling. You are moving the goalpost.
Also like, I dont tunnel, I dont camp, and I only slug to avoid flashlight saves. Ive had many people use For The People and Buckle Up on my downs with basically no counterplay for me. Your argument that "it's fine since it counters a playstyle" does not account for the fact that this perk combo extends beyond that.
If For The People and Buckle Up made tunneling impossible but affected no other aspects of the game, I wouldnt complain, hell, Id be happy even, but the fact that it extends beyond that is what upsets me, it's just anti-fun.
2 -
You could just waite out the timer or insted of being blood thirsty u should know where the BU guy is and hit him then down the other guy can't ftp when injured and it takes forever to heal now a day and and their tons of per like 90% of killer perk can't be counter by the survovurs so what the difference and even if their was a counter people still wouldent run it they just complain about it untill it nerfed look at adrenaline it getting rewoked because no killer would dare through on termi us to make people broken when the last gen pops
0 -
"Just hit the other Survivor," did you not read my reply from earlier?
If I down the Survivor I am chasing, the other Survivor will instantly use For The People and Buckle Up to ensure that both Survivors get away with no consequences. If I hit the Survivor with FTPBU, the Survivor I was chasing makes a massive amount of distance. This perk combo puts the Killer into a lose/lose situation.
Also what do you mean by "just wait out the timer"?
What timer? The bleedout timer? When they can just pick up? Or are you talking about the Endurance? Which waiting it out would be pointless since they have 10 whole seconds and 40 whole meters that they can use to reach a pallet or loop?
Also Idk how you can make the argument that "90% of Killers perks cant be countered" when:
- 1. Most perks can be countered, it's not the game's fault that you dont understand the counterplay for most perks
- 2. Perks that dont have meaningful counterplay (but have incredibly strong effects) should be changed regardless of the role to begin with.
And finally... what does Adrenaline have to do with anything Ive said?
I think you are trying to argue against a preconceived notion of what you think I am or opinions you think I have rather than actually acknowledging what Ive been saying. Im not a Killer main. Im not a Survivor main. I play both sides rather evenly and do my own thing bc apparently that is a hard concept for people to understand.
You can respond if you want. Im not dragging this on further beyond this and I will not respond. We have diverged too far from the subject of the original post.
2 -
Pick-rate alone does not paint you a clear picture here, you have to take into account how easy it is to aquire the perk. Alien is one of the newest DLCs, and a licensed one, so you have to spend real money for that. With original killers, you can get them with shards. Thats exactly the reason why I do not own alien yet, when I usually buy any killer the release day (waiting for a discount basically).
Compare that to BBQ. Thats also from a licensed features, but Cannibal is years old! The majority of regular players will have access to this. Also BBQ was in the shrine a few times. I myself got BBQ before I bought Cannibal (few years ago).
With lethal, it's also a license feature, but that was the first RE release, with a way bigger hype than Alien chapter. Also you got two survivors with it. And it's also like 2-3 years old already.
Nowhere to hide is from an original DLC, so purchaseble with shards. That alone should increase it's pick rate above UW, if it's roughly the same strength.
All this things considered, it's actually quite impressive for a licensed killer perk of less than a year to reach a pick rat of 7%. Outshining other real good info perks like discordance with ease. So if anything, that pick rate actually tells you how strong that perk is, under the given circumstances.
0 -
My issue with it is how free it is, combined with how long it lasts.
also I don’t understand what the idea behind the locker search is. It seems arbitrary.
4 -
The perk is fine. I rarely ever see anyone run it and never has it been an issue.
0 -
UW might be the best overall detection perk. But against a good team you're wasting time opening lockers only to see them screaming on gens. That's why i think UW is more a solo stomper as it breaks a lot of surv aura perks (Windows, Bond, Kindred, etc.) which leads to confusion when it comes to unhooks. And yes, as OP mentionend some killers def have better usage of the perk.
Real chads are using UW on Pig. <3
0 -
I can't wait for the UW nerf/rework. Those stats you pulled up don't really mean anything. UW is a perk that outclasses other info perks, has no counterplay except for Calm Spirit (LOL) and it's just another perk that only overpowers already high-tier mobility killers. Nobody cares if Trapper is running UW but Nurse and Blight mains are turning their brains off, zooming across map with it, ending games in a couple of minutes. It does too much for least amount of effort. Just open a locker and that's it, you don't have to accomplish anything like downing or hooking a survivor etc. like most info perks require you to do.
0 -
That websites results has no reliability or validity. Try again please with actual data from behavior to back up your point.
Pick rate does not equal how strong something is.
It's already on the road map to be tweaked, and it cannot come fast enough.
3 -
UW, BBQ, and NTH all do different things and are all better depending on the killer, but universally UW comes out on top since it has no counters other than Calm Spirit, whereas the other 2 have several counters thanks to how many ways there are to block auras.
In fact UW can be substituted for both of these perks combined. Open a locker near a progressed gen and you negate all aura blocking perks while having either the same range or an even larger range, AND a longer activation time. Not to mention the Blindness it provides which is very valuable in a meta with WoO. This doesnt even consider the fact that you dont even need to walk over to the gen to begin with. Just get close enough so the Survivor can be in your TR and you know if somebody is there or not.
As for BBQ, its the same situation. You simply have to walk over to the gens you think Survivors are most likely to be on, and if theyre there then they have no way to avoid that.
Its without a doubt the strongest info perk in DbD's history, only rivaled by Hangman's Trick in a PTB years ago. It needs adjustment, and there isnt a soul out there that can tell me otherwise
1 -
I mean, by this metric empty perk slots are some of the best loadout choices you can make... There is much more that goes into pickrate than the objective strength of the choices. After all, the strongest killers do not have the highest global pickrates, either. For one big thing, relative strength is usually a much more important variable in these global stats, specifically meaning the difficulty of using something as compared to its strength. Things that are easy to use and yet still strong are much more favoured and perform much better on average than things that may be objectively stronger but harder to use, because the average player is not very skilled or smart at the game.
Even ignoring whether Nightlight is an accurate source for this kind of thing (their perk usage rates usually have at least been more accurate than their kill rates, but there are still notable discrepancies and they still don't use killer-submitted data for this either), pickrate is not a great measure of strength. Self-Care, Deja, Windows, Distortion, BBQ, Surge, Brutal Strength, Enduring, they're all top picks statistically but they're just decent perks at best, they're not strong or let alone problematically strong. Likewise, some of the strongest most-used perks are not necessarily in need of adjustments either, pickrate is even less of a measure of how "problematic" the strength of a perk is. Yet from your reasoning that pickrate determines whether a perk is fine or not, surely you must think the top 5 perks are all problematic and need changes?
Ultimate Weapon specifically is a fairly recent licensed perk from a chapter that is also more expensive than the average licensed chapter. There are also killers that do not benefit from it as much due to having small or no terror radii. It is also not easy for newer and intermediate players to use because where auras tell them precisely where a survivor is and what they are doing and can allow them to get the jump and easy hits on them, the scream ping requires the killer player to still do a bit more of their own thinking and tracking. Not only that, but since the survivor knows they have been revealed, the dynamic is different from aura perks that are more insidious. Good killer players however don't care if the survivor knows they have been revealed: they outplay the survivor in chase, they don't need to get surprise hits. I would also assume that a lot of players (and again especially newer/intermediate players) gravitate toward perks like BBQ and Nowhere To Hide because they happen naturally as they do things they would otherwise be doing too, such as hooking survivors and kicking gens. Opening lockers does not come naturally to most, it is not part of the normal gameplay loop.
UW is absolutely problematically strong in the hands of a competent player. Game sense is such an important skill, and UW replaces a good portion of it. You don't need to know survivor spawns or the patterns of how survivors behave in the early game, you can just open a locker. You don't need to know which gens would be opportune to contest or defend and spend time going to them to check whether someone's repairing them, open a locker. You don't have to know about hiding spots and evaluate whether checking them is worth the time investment in a specific scenario, just locker. You don't need to have an insight into where sensible reset locations could be, locker does it. You don't need to consider various things to decide whether and how hard to proxi-camp, locker tells you. You don't need to anticipate the movements and hiding spots of a recently-unhooked survivor to tunnel them out, locker guides you. You don't have to weigh the risks of committing to a chase or snuffing out reset locations in a 3-gen scenario, the locker knows it.
Apart from it being "game sense" in perk slot form, other problems include the fact that its interaction interruption synergizes with various other perks and abilities in powerful ways, such as Dead Man's Switch, Hex perks, RBTs, that stealth which this perk all but does away with is integrally important to newer and intermediate survivor players that can't lead chases, and integrally important at any level against killers that nobody can reliably lead chases against (primarily of course Nurse, Blight and Spirit), and that its Blindness hampers the already low level of coordination particularly in solo groups, where not seeing the auras of slugged and hooked survivors as well as not having the help of things like Bond and Kindred can be game-deciding. It can also be said that UW encourages and supports camping and tunnelling because it literally screams at its user "there are people here, don't go away", or "the injured survivor is right there". As well as slugging for the 4k, an unfortunate gameplay aspect that long should have been rebalanced that many players however fortunately don't regularly employ because it's boring for everyone involved, spending minutes on the floor/hiding/searching - with UW on the other hand, you can fairly reliably find the last survivor standing, so if someone has the perk equipped it is much more likely they will slug for the 4k. It also makes the 1V1 endgame scenario that is likewise an unfortunate gameplay design aspect that should long have been improved be tilted even more in the killer's favour, where with UW in play escape is essentially impossible unless hatch basically spawns next to the survivor.
Luckily we don't have to debate whether UW is in need of attention, BHVR has already included it on the roadmap. It's actually comically obvious from that fact that BHVR knows it is problematic and intended for it to be, putting it on the roadmap right after release but giving it a few months for people to buy the chapter. It's the Made For This-equivalent, having a pointedly too powerful effect for next to no investment, and then another strong effect and ridiculous synergies on top just to make sure it really is over-the-top powerful.
1 -
There are killer mains (like me) that dislike Ultimate Weapon and dont want to use it, why? Because it's a perk with low risk/effort and high reward. You just have to open a locker (waste like 3 seconds) and you have nearly every survivor tracked and without the most used perk for survivors (Windows of Opportunity), since they will get the blindness status effect. On the other side, BBQ is a fairly balanced perk, that has a limited usage in the match (11 times), the survivors can counter it, and you need to do something else that just waste 3 seconds opening a locker. In my oppinion, Ultimate Weapon is just a perk for new killers that dont know how to track survivors or killers that want the easiest match ever. I'm sorry, but UW is not fine and needs a nerf (and not in like 3 months, it needs a nerf right now).
0
