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Casual vs. Competitive
I've been thinking lately about how balance wise the game is in a pretty good place IMO but there's perhaps more complaints than ever and those complaints are perhaps more diverse than ever. I remember when you pretty much knew the list of things people didn't like by heart
-Face camping
-NOED
-DH
-DS/Unbreakable
-Hatch stand offs
Were the majority of the complaints and blatant Us vs. Them was everywhere. Now don't get me wrong it's still around but more now I see survivors blaming other survivors and killers complaining about the most obscure things. Part of me thinks well people will always complain and if the complaints are getting weirder that probably means the game is more balanced.
But I thought about it more and I thought about the nature of the different complaints and it's more obvious than over even in the way different content creators talk about things differently than we're very much split into two camps and it's not about balance and it's not about survivors vs. killer.
It's very clear there's a casual vs. competitive schism going on rn in DBD where I would say it's probably the majority just wanna not take the game seriously, run whatever they want and still have a chance to win without thinking all that hard about how everything works. I'm not calling these people stupid mind you they just aren't interested in knowing every number for every killer power and knowing every perk interaction and just wanna have fun goofing off.
Then you have the smaller but still very significant competitive player base, they know how every killer works, all the different ways loops can spawn on a map and how to run them and perfectly mastered their main killers. For them they wanna push their skills as far as they can go against other players who wanna do the same and only enjoy highly competitive matches with optimized play.
First I want to say both of these are valid ways to enjoy DBD but second it's created a real problem in that these players are all in the same pool. You may have one game where two survivors are mad at the killer for being sweaty and the other two are mad at the two teammates running meme builds and playing inefficient. And that makes it difficult the discuss any issues with DBD as any particular issue is being viewed from two completely different lenses.
I really do think it's time that as it seems BHVR is finally ready to create new game modes we get a separate competitive mode separate from what we have now that's balanced differently from the main mode with certain perks being unavailable and stricter MMR matching even if it means longer queue times and maybe slight numbers tweaks specifically for that mode. I know it seems like a lot of work for minor differences but I don't see a way to make both camps happy with the same main game mode.
Comments
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The main problem with this is that what you're describing isn't 'competitive' it's opportunisticly oppressive.
People who play like this don't do it for the challenge, they do it for an easy win. They want the power fantasy. These people will not play a "competitive mode" because that would be making their games actively more challenging. They will continue to play "casual mode" so that they can bully weaker opponents.
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I gotta disagree. The vast majority do it because they feel forced to, not for an easy win. The large majority of people do not want to do those things at all. Of course "easy win" people will always exist, but that's a minority. Every single person I know who plays DBD would never do any of that again if they felt it was never necessary.
What it takes to win and wanting an easy game are very different things that people tend to use synonymously.
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I don't feel forced to do any of it. If someone does feel forced, that suggests they feel they have to win at any cost and can't accept losing a fair number of games.
For example, I and many others don't have a problem when the killer camps or tunnels at end game to secure a kill, that is someone who is simply doing what they can to win what they can.
The problem arises when killers camp or tunnel as the default from the start of that game. That's not someone who is reacting against the odds, that's simply someone who wants to be as powerful at possible with no consideration for the other side or the balance of that game. People who want to 'win more' when they're already winning, kicking survivors when they're already down. That's the power fantasy rearing it's head.
Most of the time it's entirely unnecessary, and you could win without resorting to cheap tactics. But if you camp and tunnel as default because you believe you're "forced to", then you're never going to have the chance to see the games that you would have won without doing so.
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This.
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"that suggests they feel they have to win at any cost and can't accept losing a fair number of games."
Or they can accept losing from playing badly, but just not from losing through poor balancing. Very different.
"The problem arises when killers camp or tunnel as the default from the start of that game. That's not someone who is reacting against the odds, that's simply someone who wants to be as powerful at possible with no consideration for the other side or the balance of that game."
Most games? Yes. However high mmr matches against 4 man swf's bar being on a few specific killers, that's how you're forced to play if you want to win unless they're just playing bad.
During the middle of the match as well? Many games this is necessary, and not from playing badly (it can be), from poor balancing.
"People who want to 'win more' when they're already winning, kicking survivors when they're already down. That's the power fantasy rearing it's head."
Is that the majority or a minority? It's very much the minority. If tomorrow the game was better balanced and tunneling/camping was never necessary to win if you played well then you would see very little of it happening bar the few people desperate for wins when playing badly or just salty at someone. Still, the minority.
"Most of the time it's entirely unnecessary, and you could win without resorting to cheap tactics."
Disagree. This is only accurate if the survivors are bad. If both sides play perfectly and the killer doesn't tunnel he will lose nearly every single time bar a couple exceptions. The vast majority of the killer roster (bar a couple exceptions) requires survivor mistakes to win, regardless of how well they play.
Don't get me wrong, I want tunneling and camping nerfed/removed from the game. It shows zero skill and gives kills that were unearned. However I also play against good enough players and with enough hours to understand how this game is balanced and know they're doing what's necessary much of the time. In a hypothetical world we'd remove those things entirely and then buff most killers accordingly to make them never necessary. I personally don't do those things at all because I don't want kills I didn't earn (same reason I don't like NOED) but I also understand it makes me lose games that I would replay in the exact same way and tunneling would've been the only way I could have won those. Meaning playing a hypothetical perfect game as killer doesn't mean you win.
When I'm in a swf group I don't blame them for tunneling, they have to. Unless we're just playing super bad they aren't winning without doing this. Without them tunneling whether we win or lose is up to us, not the killer.
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I think the disconnect when it comes to balance for all of us is their tendency to focus on the average player experience first and foremost. Then the rookies. And then those highly skilled vets absolutely last. Whether this is the best and/or correct path is another thread entirely.
Methods and perks that are underutilized but otherwise fine at the normal level (say 85% of the playerbase) are crushing to newbies. And often op in the high MMR area. But it's that 85% they seem to balance around, those that are really not too good at the game yet, and likely won't put in the time to be.
To better understand their pov, I kinda think you just chuck out the numbers for that bottom 10% and that top 5% as well. Then what they do and don't change makes a bit more sense. Think of it an a sorta penalty for being too good.
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I agree with your points.
I tend to think they should balance for the top like 20%. Since we have a SBMM system the lower tier players will have their mmr adjusted to where they are winning/losing exactly the same as before, except now the top is actually more balanced. So essentially I don't think balancing for the top say 20% hurts the lower people as much as people think it would/does. People have a tendency to be hyperbolic when we say balance top down and jump straight to the "1% comp players" which is a bit disingenuous.
This is also without even getting into the whole solo vs swf thing. Which I feel the amount of swf is significantly downplayed, especially at higher mmr's (there's a reason we aren't shown who's a swf in post game lobby). Like pure full solo queue groups (which the game is balanced around) is like sub 15% of my matches at least. So most my matches are playing "unbalanced" games if you will. Playing full solo queue will only get you so far in mmr heights, so the majority of people at those higher levels are swf since that's the only way you get there.
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I disagree if you look at comp DBD tunneling and camping is pretty much a guarantee because creating the 3v1 as quickly as possible is the best way to get momentum and yet at the same time 3ks and 4ks are nowhere near as common as they are in public games.
Because let's be honest the average person in pubs will last 15 seconds in chase unless they're against an absolute baby killer. How is this fair for the killer when they lose in either scenario? If they try their hardest they're a baby stomper tryhard but if they hold back the game gets stale because they can't actually try and maybe the survivors escapes and it's ggez killer from survivors who normally would would never escape and think their CoL/Flashbang/Residual/Blast Mine build actually did something for once.
We need a mode for survivors and killers who try and know the game at a deeper level aren't demonized.
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Unless the competitive mode had extra "rewards" or greater compensation, no one would play it. Why would I willingly make my matches more difficult when I can just stay in the casual queue
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Put a 1.5x multiplier on the end of season BP and throw in some banners and charms, that should do it.
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Camping or tunneling at the start of the game, is just someone trying to win a video game. This is a PvP game, and people are allowed to try to win a PvP game.
And the whole “consideration for the other side” argument is completely invalid, because we still don’t have a list of things survivors should do out of consideration for killers.
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This whole problem could simply be solved by not allowing the most oppressive and unenjoyable strategies to not only be the easiest strategies but also basekit for every killer in the game.
Disincentivize strategies that are widely seen as extremely unenjoyable and balance accordingly after the fact.
Why anyone wouldn’t want the game to be in a more enjoyable state for both sides baffles me. We’re all playing the same game and the vast majority of people play both sides.
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This game just doesn't have the skill expression to be competitive. Especially when the game is balanced so killer has a slight advantage.
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Lets go with a tunneling equivalent:
"A survivor shall not focus their attention on a single generator. They need to swap to a different generator each 25-33% of progress, regardless of effiency, lest they rightfully be known as lowskill unpleasantly fragrant genrusher."
As if survivors care for killer fun.
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With about half of all survs solos, around half the rest duos, I'm not sure balancing for the best play would actually work. Worth testing out though.
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The SWF stats are years old at this point and the devs haven't give us updated stats for SWF vs Solo numbers. It's possible that more or less players are playing SWF since then.
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Not best play, just top 20% or so. But yeah.
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I sigh that the developers should have realized that they should have separated the matching.
Am I the only one who seems to be putting off things that are just a matter of time?
By the way, the top 5% is often quoted, but the top 5% in this game is by no means narrower or more difficult than Master Class 7.84% in Street Fighter 6. In my experience, the top 5% in DBD seems to be at most Platinum (40.25%) in SF6. In other words, the overwhelming majority of players of this game are casual players and beginners. This is because in a fighting game, it's normal to take countermeasures for each major move of every character, but in DBD, there are many survivors who don't even know the killer's abilities, and there are too many survivors can't do anything to the kileer's camps and tunnels.
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I thought the numbers like three months back said something like 53% were solos globally?
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The most recent stats do not contain the split on solo vs swf. Just escape rate difference
The stats given before that were Oct 2023 also no split on Solo vs SWF
I can't find the original source but seems it was around July 2021 was the only time I remember them giving us a split on party sizes
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My post was merely an example as goes entirely for both sides.
SWF running 4 meta perks with BNPs and flashlight is equally unnecessary most of the time.
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Your comparison is bad, because your requirements for “unnecessary survivor gameplay” is extremely specific and restrictive, but your requirements for “unnecessary killer gameplay” is something that any killer could easily do in any game.
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Camping and tunneling right at the start of the game?
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Yes. That is something that any killer could easily do in any game.
But your example for survivors is a super specific example, that requires a full SWF with 16 meta perks, and are using specific items.
How is that a fair comparison? Where are the examples of “unnecessary survivor gameplay” that any survivor could easily do, even if they were playing solo?
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I mean, there's nothing a solo survivor CAN do that's on the same level as camping and tunneling.
The game is asymmetric, it takes a coordinated party of four to match up to the killer.
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This was never about both sides of the game being considerate to each other. This was always about just shaming one side of the game, and expecting only one side of the game to show consideration for their opponents.
And that is why all the complaints about killers being inconsiderate and unemphatic, are all total garbage. It's just one-sided expectations.
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Often is, yes. But that's not what I'm talking about.
Trust me I've had my fair share of SWF bully squads too. Getting demolished by the other side, who never let up even when they're already wining 5 times over, isn't fun for either side.
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That's still not comparable. A killer tunneling at 5 gens is often just trying to win the game in an effective way. A SWF bully squad is purposely trying to make their opponents feel miserable.
I know what you're talking about. You're literally talking about killers being expected to purposely make bad game decisions, for the sake of survivor fun......... but survivors don't have to show consideration for killer fun, because your examples of "unnecessary survivor behavior" apply to less than 1% of the survivors.
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You do not need to camp and tunnel at 5 gens to play killer.
I play killer. I don't camp or tunnel until I get to end game. I don't even use meta perks. I still win the majority of my games.
But I'm well aware that you're so far gone as a killer main that anyone who even suggests that a killer might not be a scawed wittle puppy just twying to eawn some bwood points looks like an alqaeda peta agent to you.
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If you are playing against a sweat squad, something you have acknowledged, you absolutely need to camp and tunnel. The killer shouldn’t be expected to throw the match.
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But you can't know that until you're part way into the game, not at the outset.
As I said before, if you're camping and tunneling at 5 gens as default, regardless of your opponents, you will never know when you get a game that you would have won without it. You will also never get a game that actually tests you, that's a close match and is actually fun for both sides. If you camp and tunnel by default, all of your games will be either noob stomps or sweatfests, and nothing in between.
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I'm still waiting for you to brag about all the things you avoid doing when you play survivor, that you do for the sake of killer fun.
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I’d rather end the game quickly than play relaxed and get gen rushed.
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That's not possible as a solo survivor.
I guess I can say I don't play SWF with meta perks an BNPs. Is that good enough for your extremely partisan viewpoint?
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The vast majority do it because they feel forced to, not for an easy win. The large majority of people do not want to do those things at all.But as long as there are some players who sweat in the hypothetical casual que, it requires the other players to sweat to have a chance. Whether players are sweating out of a power fantasy, as @Seraphor says, or they are responding to people who are doing it, still results in the same thing.
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We need a mode for survivors and killers who try and know the game at a deeper level aren't demonized.There's also the problem of where you draw a line. It's not really two camps, more of a spectrum of where players fall. There's a lot of ground between 4 person call out SWF and soloq running random builds.
But how does that actually get competitive players? That just sounds like it gets the players interested in the multiplier/charms.
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That’s right, that’s why I’d like it removed and the game balanced around that.
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What exactly is being removed? I'm not sure based on the prior posts and don't want to make a guess.
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Oh nothings being removed. I just said I’d like if hypothetically tunneling/camping was removed, “if” the game was balanced appropriately to where it was never necessary.
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I had a farming bubba yesterday and he tried to let me live and yet i leg entity kill me and he was pretty sad that he stood at corner….
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