Why do the devs want the game to be so easy for killers?

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  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 1,026
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    He's probably saying two things. In other words, hatch escape and solo survivor escape. If you add them together, it will probably be more than 4k.

  • th3
    th3 Member Posts: 1,804
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    The incentive is based on your relative mmr range, so it very well could be on survivor for the person you responded to almost all the time while also switching to killer for you.


    Essentially their survivor mmr probably doesn’t have enough players and their killer mmr has enough people queueing at it.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,423
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    The devs already have pointed this out numerous times. Every survivor has their own win condition.

    If you're going to focus on the devs, the devs also use the word draw to describe a 2k. The following comment is about how to treat a 2k.

    Full thread link: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/2912408

    Hyper focusing on the the same result between two sides for the definition of draw neglects that this is an asymmetrical game.

    If you want to get technical on that point, the game has zero win conditions. There are escapes, deaths, points, pips, etc. The mere fact we are calling something a win or a loss means we are outside of what the game provides to us.

    You can just as easily call a 2k a win under the logic of why it would be a loss.

    Also, saying that the survivors are not a team and that's the devs stance is not correct. The devs have left such things up to the players. Being I'm going through dev posts, here's a recent example where Peanits refers to the survivors as a team

    Thread here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3625891

    Basically

    If you want to use MMR, 2k is a draw for the killer, or if you prefer, an even result

    If you want to throw out MMR, there's no objective standard for calling anything in the game a win, loss, or draw - but the community has very broadly set guidelines for the killer role, 3+ kills a win, 1 or less kills a loss, 2 kill neither of the above (insert your preferred word)

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,423
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  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,105
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    Sadly, it falls on deaf ears, because one person misunderstood how the statistics work and unfortunately it lines up with a pro-killer bias, so now people just run with it.

  • RpTheHotrod
    RpTheHotrod Member Posts: 1,724
    edited March 22
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    You might want to reread their comments. They specifically say that's related to MMR adjustments alone. We already all know that MMR adjustments are not related to win or loss conditions. It only exists to try to make future matches more fair. That's why in many games you can go down in mmr on a win and up in mmr on a loss. It doesn't care about win or lose, it cares about adjustmenting future matches for more fair play. You'll note that the devs specifically say in regardingto MMR they treat a 2k as MMR neutral or a draw. It's not enough to move the needle for adjusting the MMR. That's entirely unrelated to a win or a loss. You literally cannot have a draw in a 1 v 1 in DBD. A survivor either escapes or they do not. There is no situation at all where neither the killer wins nor the survivor wins (unless you count the server crashing, ha). It's four distinct 1 v 1 situations. It's dumb, but that's how it's designed. They need to change it to team vs team so survivors all win or lose together, imho. If they did, then we would have draws with a 2k AND survivors would be encouraged to work together since they win or lose together instead of every man for himself. The every man for himself doesn't come from me, either. The devs have stated that's the design on multiple occasions and even on live streams. I think that's the wrong approach, though.

  • Ginnypig
    Ginnypig Member Posts: 151
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    Some killers, yess, like take huntress for example, she has an enormouss hitbox for years, and it got never fixed, it can be played by 5 year old. and they even buffed her can you believe that.


    This is not lagg, this is hatches hitbox range

  • Paris_SkyYT
    Paris_SkyYT Member Posts: 7
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    Bro what? 😂 My friend I would EASILY lose as a Killer, but I win Survivor like 88% of the time.

  • solarjin1
    solarjin1 Member Posts: 1,802
    edited March 22
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    Yeah that how it been where (NA) I'm at too. From 5 am to the middle of the day it on survivor. Rest of the time on killer.

  • Interocitor
    Interocitor Member Posts: 141
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    I'd assume BHVR looks at their stats, decides there aren't enough killer players in certain MMR brackets/regions that they care the most about, and then decide on buffs in hopes of inspiring more people to play the killer role. 80-90% of the daily rituals I get are also killer related ones, which may be a coincidence, but it seems like that may also be on purpose to convince more people to play killer.

  • kreeper124
    kreeper124 Member Posts: 491
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    Get your killer MMR up, have fun

  • 100PercentBPMain
    100PercentBPMain Member Posts: 516
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    1-2 survivors escaping on average keeps things nice and tense. When I play in SWF i consider getting a single survivor out via the Exit Gate a win.

    Even in solo, dying ain't so bad if your team puts in elbow grease.

  • Hexling
    Hexling Member Posts: 657
    edited March 22
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    Its pretty easy. I go on long win streaks all the time as killer. I loved the 6.1. patch it made everything easy mode.

    No one knows their mmr but I win almost 80 to 90% of my games and I play a lot maybe 6 to 8 hours a day its still easy.

  • Withered8
    Withered8 Member Posts: 1,235
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    Yea it is true to a degree that solo q players and even a general pub swf are either imcompetent or just playing for fun. That's typically why people like myself played alot of comp.

    I don't know how you fix this other than potentially improving matchmaking somehow, adding some sort of proper ranked mode or system would be really fun but unfortunatelly there isn't the playerbase for that, which is why you'll find actual good killer players dont really play that much pubs or well handicap themselves so hard just to make the experience interesting. I can't play any S tier killers with more than bbq or it just ruins all degree of enjoyment.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,163
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    This game is still survivor sided if you're team is decent and does Gens. After all it's 1vs4. Agains't average survivors it can be easy to win on killer but not agains't good teams. Even average survivors still should beat you if you restrict yourself on average killer and don't play close to optimally. Or maybe pc killers can win no matter what. Killer is really clunky on console.

    But I agree tcm is better balanced survivors don't have so many chances they die instantly when you get them and it's 3vs4. I almost never lose on family if my team is decent. It's definetely more killer sided than dbd and why would not it be when killer has team instead being all alone. After playing tcm it's hard to play killer on dbd again. Family is so easy on tcm and pressure free.

    I win still good amount of my games in victim too with my buddy. But ramdom victims often are worser than dbd so yeah it's good you don't have to rely on them like on dbd. But we often win because family plays unoptimally, example they play johnny and sissy instead hitch and cook.

    On dbd I just escaped 3 times a row on soloQ because my teammatew knew somewhat what to do. We got sweaty killers P100 huntress for example and we destroyed her just by doing gens. Then beat even blight who tunneled.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,163
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    Does it even affect mmr actually if you intentionally lose some games like for me it seems ramdon I either get good teams after good teams after losing and bad teams after winning. I just wonder does it matter much if you lose or win?

  • ChuckingWong
    ChuckingWong Member Posts: 188
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    This game is still survivor sided if you're team is decent

    Arbitrary "decent" and keyword in there is team. In SoloQ its just not the case when it comes to your play. Sure you are on the same team but there is hardly any teamwork. And more often than not, you have at least 1 weak link somehow, thanks MMR, in your lobby. It's not like its on purpose either, there are just ... no friggen tools to communicate/coordinate, "hey dont bring the killer here" "dont save right now just push the gens" "do this gen so we dont get 3 genned" "dont bring open-handed.. I already have it..." etc....

    It also doesnt help that NONE of this is taught in the in game tutorial. Laughably, YOU SAVE THE SURVIVOR FROM THE HOOK WITH THE KILLER RIGHT THERE. It teaches you to face save.

    SoloQ mishaps, whether intentional or not, happens even to people that play this as a career such as Otz, where he only had a SoloQ win rate of 39.7% across 260+ games. And that guy is higher MMR than... probably anyone that posts on the forums.


    As for sided? The game is completely killer sided and it has to be, there is 1 of them and 4 survivors. The game would be unplayable if it was the other direction.

    The magnitude of how sided it is though is the problem, and varies between killer(s), their addons, and maps. Most of these are just blatantly broken against SoloQ as they still are barely manageable with a 2, 3, or 4 man ie: Nurse, Billy, Blight, Scratched Mirror Lery's, Double Iri Plague, Tombstone/Piece Meyers, Trapper Midwich... etc...

    Comp SWF teams who are organized that can counter even these archetypes are so rare, even for killer mains with 8k+ hours. You will see these types of matches 2 times every 10 or more games. And even then, have to hope they are at a level of comp/ get map RNG, that the killer will not just 3/4k them anyways.

    Even Hens, a comp and tournament player, ques up in SoloQ and gets absolutely stomped on just like the rest of us. He gets 4 genned tunneled out by a nurse, gets outed by tricksters.. Oni's... Its not like there is some super survivor that can carry SoloQ...


    TCM is a bit killer sided though in regards to ... at least family house. The rest of the maps, I think you have a good shot on the victim side of things. And as previously stated, it allows you to actually have an impact on YOUR game play based on what YOU do, rather than what everyone else is doing, like in dbd. I dont have to go int myself because some meghead wants to go down in 10 seconds and the killer is just waiting for a save. I can just work on the gates/doors and leave if I need to.

  • MaTtRoSiTy
    MaTtRoSiTy Member Posts: 1,734
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    It isn't though, survivors just had it so easy before they cry now when they have a more even playing field. The game is still survivor sided but the reality is most of the player base are unskilled casuals and it is good that is the case otherwise killers would never win.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,542
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    There's a lot of contradictions.


    Survivor is easy if you're team is decent.

    Average Survivor it's easy to win on Killer.

    Average Survivors should beat you on Killer?


    Kill Rates show that the game is Killer-sided, literally by design. Now, I don't think that's good design at all; but it's meant to be that way.

  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 1,026
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    Team play can be established between decent survivors. If you understand the contents of the game properly, when a rescued survivor is about to be exposed to a tunnel attack, they will body block at the entrance of a building etc. and receive one hit instead. When camping, one of the survivors dares to complete a gen that can attract the killer's attention and guide the killer, while the other survivors run to the hook. When attempting to complete a gen, you can guess who is in charge of which gen based on the movements of the survivors you saw at the beginning and the HUD, and then you will be in charge of the gen that will give you an advantage. During a chase, if you can guess where someone might be completing a gen, we can avoid that area and chase from killer, and downed somewhere out of the way.

  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 1,026
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    It is an unfortunate fact, but survivors who commit suicide or commit DC in the face of SM cannot be called decent. If you use that as a standard, the average survivor is not a decent person.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,542
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    We aren't talking about them being decent people, it's about their skill in-game.

  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 1,026
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    By my standards, or rather by the standards of a ``really decent survivor,'' a survivor who abandons a match in the face of SM is definitely lacking in skill. Because she's a killer that's very very far from impossible to beat.

  • coolgue1
    coolgue1 Member Posts: 85
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    The fourms should be split into survivour main and killer main so killers can't committing on survivour affairs killer will always cry because their game are usually in their favour so go's forbid they not be

  • MaTtRoSiTy
    MaTtRoSiTy Member Posts: 1,734
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    Blight and Nurse are broken in public lobbies with builds that those doing stupid 'win streaks' use and playing in the scummiest sweaty way possible. Also players with more than 5k hours in game if I am no mistaken, so not your average weekend Andy.

    If you lose continuously as killer then something is wrong for sure as the average survivor ranges somewhat competent to completely unskilled and no functional brain. That is why the game has to always lean towards being survivor sided, even thought at present is it probably the least survivor sided it has been.

    My opinion of course, I don't claim to be an authority on all things DBD

  • ratcoffee
    ratcoffee Member Posts: 1,098
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    The reason they abandon the trial when they see the killer is SM is Not because they are not able to beat SM

    It's because they do not enjoy playing against her, even if she's totally beatable

  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 1,026
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    No? You and non decent just doesn't know how to have fun with her.

  • ratcoffee
    ratcoffee Member Posts: 1,098
    edited March 23
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    Yes that's what I said just phrased different, people do not find playing against her fun; they're not capable of finding fun in playing against her

    Post edited by ratcoffee on
  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 1,026
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    So you're just supporting my point that the average survivor isn't very decent.

  • ratcoffee
    ratcoffee Member Posts: 1,098
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    Yeah no I think you have a fundamentally incorrect definition of "decent" as it relates to skill at the game

    Enjoying the game is not a fundamental requirement for being good at it. I've seen videos of people 4 outing against the old, exposed-based 3 gen Merchant and talking about how much they hated the match as they did it, even though they got the 4 out.

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,423
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    They need to change it to team vs team so survivors all win or lose together, imho.

    Let's start here. I'm not discussing what the game design ought to be. I'm saying if we take your statements about what the game design is, the conclusions you reach aren't logical. It's like the argument that the kill rate should be 62.5% for a 50% win rate, its not that you've done a calculation wrong, the premise that you used to structure the equation is flawed.

    It's four distinct 1 v 1 situations.

    For the sake of argument, I'll treat this as absolutely true. The match is 4 1 v 1s. If so, having any win condition for the match overall doesn't make sense. Saying a 2k is a win/loss/draw is irrelevant. You won twice and lost twice. 3k is not a "win", its 3 wins and a loss.

    And if we do treat the game like 4 distinct 1 v 1s we know precisely what the win rate was as of the last data set: 58.5% as the overall average. Because if a kill is a win, and killers kill 58.5% of the time, that's their win rate. Meanwhile survivor win rate is 41.5%, Whether that is good game design or not is a totally different question, but if its 4 1 v 1s, that's the win rate.

    You can't argue from the perspective that its four separate games for one part of the argument, and then switch and treat the match like a single game.

    You might want to reread their comments. They specifically say that's related to MMR adjustments alone. 

    Because MMR is the only metric they ever gave.

  • Chocolate_Cosmos
    Chocolate_Cosmos Member Posts: 5,442
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    Well we allready had different game where Killer role was hard to play and it ended up being closed after few months and lobby que simulator (Horror Society). So yea...

  • xltechno
    xltechno Member Posts: 1,026
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    Let's show a one game video to someone who claims that game is eazy for killer, and see if they can explain specifically who made the mistake, how many mistakes they made, and whether it was a good decision. They probably just mention chase time and hook state numbers all the time, and just look at the 4k result and conclude that game is eazy for killer.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,542
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    So despite the fact that most Killers are winning almost all of their matches, the game is...somehow still Survivor-sided.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,542
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    They'd need more experience but generally I agree with that sentiment.

    Killer is absolutely easy at the moment

  • jonifire
    jonifire Member Posts: 1,437
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  • KaTo1337
    KaTo1337 Member Posts: 483
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    Yes. 3K or 4K increase your MMR, 1K or 0K decrease it.

    However: Every killer has their own MMR.