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Please change the killer meta
Please change the killer meta. Pop and pain res are in just about literally every killer build and it’s so boring atp. I don’t see these perks as a problem on their own but they get paired together and just over reward killers. I don’t wanna play survivor anymore because almost every match everything done is just about for nothing because of this and survivor is so boring as a whole it’s to the point where I don’t want to play survivor unless it’s in a customs with friends
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maybe its time to give perks something like a point system. every perk has points asigned and now you cant make to strong combos cause your points are not enough.
that could also be used as a means of balance since the point distribution could be changed rather then the perks.
as an exampel you have four categories 1point to 4 point. you can use one perk of every category to get to ten points or you can use two 4 point perks and one 2 point or two 1 point perks.
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I mean I used to bring sloppy and surge, but sloppy got nerfed so well...
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medkits got nerfed and people still bring them pain res got nerfed and it’s still the most used killer perk you say it as if it was nerfed to the point of basically being unusable
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Honestly a very interesting idea to go off of
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I think part of it might be down to the anti 3 gen.
Personally, I've been bringing stronger regression since its introduction because it feels like you really need to make every event count now. I swapped out Surge on my Legion for Pop and the Fuming mixtape because I was hitting gens I didn't want to with Surge.
Surge is still on my play for fun Killers because I enjoy seeing it hit lots of gens, but maybe they need to buff Surge and other regression perks a little to give Killers a few more viable options. Even then, there will always be players who will combo 4 of the strongest slowdowns whatever the current meta happens to be.
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I don’t think they’re an issue at all, but for the sake of boring and variety I can agree that we want to see other perks. They nerfed all the other good perks so the killers are just defaulting to all that’s left. We don’t need those perks nerfed, we need other perks to be made actually good so we have more options.
Revert the Sloppy change, revert old Thana to its good version, revert most the gen kick perk nerfs since it’s totally unnecessary now that we have the gen kick limit and for that matter make the gen kick limit only be active when we’re at 3 gens, it makes no since to be active at the start of the game and it kills gen kick perks. Revert Ruin back to 200%, 100% is trash. 200% Ruin was not an issue. Revert STBFL, last version was healthy and good design.
Nerfing overpowered or unhealthy perks is fine, but all these things I just listed weren’t unhealthy or overpowered. Nerfing these just removed them from the game and further narrowed the variety of perks you see used.
Now if you want to see less “gen slow down” perks I’m down for that as well, but the problem is that currently games are too fast without them so they’re required. Slow the game down and we can gut all the gen slow down perks simultaneously if you want to go that route.
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Not really, I just phrased it In a way to contradict the statement everyone only brings xy...
Sure people still use medkits, they are still the strongest item and pain rez is probably still the strongest regression perk.
However you cannot really complain about people bringing the strongest stuff when weaker options become less viable due to certain nerfs... Not saying sloppy is useless, just less consistent as before.
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I mean they just nerfed STBFL and Sloppy and buffed Grim Embrace, if that's not a signal they want killers relying on gen regression and slowdown idk what is.
Not saying I agree with that mind you but seeing the balance changes lately it seems unlikely either of those perks are going anywhere.
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Choy supporter 👍
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All I got from this is that you want any form of slowdown reverted to its best form. Slowdown as it is isn’t an issue so let’s just bring all of that back 😃
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If that’s all you got then you need to go back and read it again since that isn’t what I said, or implied.
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Gen kick revert, sloppy revert, stbfl revert, thana revert, ruin revert, all of these except stbfl is regression you said you saw no issue with pop and pain res and then you said something about not being able to see less regression because of how the matches pace 🙃
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Is fuming mixtape the addon that makes gens regress when you’re in frenzy?
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I rlly wish if they fully revert thana and ruin
those were my favorite perks to run on killer
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As a legion and plague main I support the notion for a better thana
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Please change the survivor meta. The generators are flying around my ears and I'm so bored with all the adrenaline junkies..... it's basically the same thing.
These debates unfortunately lead to nothing......
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Adren is getting changed though and is legit an endgame perk with one time use so how is that a valid argument and a good amount of survivor meta perks have went through some changes. We got 3 new perks for survivor and they’re all useless basement perks they can’t add anything too strong cuz then it’ll end up having to be nerfed and half of the “survivor meta” perks aren’t even as good as people make them out to be
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It certainly is. It's also great with pop because in frenzy you can also see which gen has the most progression and go and pop it. I believe it also stacks with Hex: Ruin.
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Ahhh that’s cool
thx for letting me know that
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A point system would be a nerf though.
The problem is that killers feel that stacking gen slowdown is required. Why is that? Try running a game as killer where you play with no slowdown at all and you'll see that the gens simply go too fast.
Now, what is the solution to this problem? They should do what they do with killer addons that feel "required" Nerf the addon, buff the basekit.
I think they should do just that, nerf the perks, and then buff the basekit. Make the basekit gen kick 10% instead of 5%. Make the basekit regression be 0.5 charges/s instead of 0.25 charges/s. Give a basekit corrupt that lasts like 30 seconds, and also blocks hex totems.
Then go and nerf or rework all the gen perks.
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I mean I know how it feels to run no slowdown cause I don't run slowdown most of the time or maybe one slowdown perk
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The current meta is silly and bordering on eruption levels of absurdity. If the killer wants to stack four slowdowns in the current meta then there really isn't anything you can do unless your team has comp level efficiency. There's just so much gen blocking that you can't ever get anything done. I know because I use four slowdowns when I play killer. The only game i've lost in my last 20 matches was against a cheater who I found out just got banned. It's pretty much impossible to lose if you play in the sweatiest way imaginable. I think it will get nerfed but it will probably take them another six months to do it. At the very least something needs to be done about DMS. I think this specific perk is the root of most problems with the slowdown meta. There are just too many no win scenarios that you can't really counter because of this perk.
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This is absolutely what they should do. They'd probably consider it too much work and it will never happen however. I can imagine how much argument there would be over how they classify the strengths of different perks. It would definitely make the game healthier if implemented well. It wouldn't feel like you are losing to perks more than the player which is currently the case.
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I'd like a points system. As long as you could maybe have 5 perks (or 6) if you use really niche perks which are worth 1 or 2 points
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If they create a point system your matches will only skyrocket in camping, tunneling and slugging. We need to address why they feel the need to run 4 slowdowns. I use zero slowdowns myself and I win very often until I reach red rank 1. Then I start losing far more often. Survivors need other objectives on top of gens so we don’t have to keep increasing gen times. That’s why I liked Ruin Undying because the killer would really run any other slowdowns mainly info. But now that that meta has been gutted it’s been a 4 slowdown meta instead of 2.
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Yeah but two things can be true at the same time. We can face the problem combos of perks can have when they work to good together without nerfing the perks with a point system and attack the reasons why killer tunnel and slug.
But let's be honest even if we had more then enough time and we would not loose two to tree gens in the first vhase there is still a big part that would still Tunnel. Bhvr should finally use a hammer and get rid of tunneling once and for all
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Killers feeling required to run slow down perks is an illogical line of thought.
Imagine a Super Smash player that only plays the best character in the game (probably Steve), a character that most agree is downright broken and plays the game for you. Now imagine this dude makes it to top 8’s consistently with Steve, but can’t even get out the first round playing any other character. Now, the Steve player could interpret this one of two ways. He either thinks that he is required to play Steve or he can realize that he needs to actually improve at the game, it’s mechanics, interactions, etc.. The reality is that he’s not nearly as good at the game as the other players, he just gets carried by an S tier character.
Now, this is DbD, you’re not playing for rank (that you can visibly see), you’re not playing for money, etc. It’s okay to lose games, it’s okay to get stomped every once in a while. All you’re doing by running full stack regression perks is artificially enhancing your MMR and more than likely your perception of your own skill. Play to win if you want, but don’t say that you’re required to run slowdown perks when in reality you’ve overextended past your actual skill level and are getting players that are flat out just better. Take the slowdowns off, it’ll improve your gameplay and experience so much more in the long run. You’re not forced to run anything, you’ve just tricked yourself into thinking that you should win 75%+ of your games handedly.
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You’re only able to have 4 perks at a time, so me wanting those back isn’t adding regression to games, it’s simply more variety. You also missed “I’d like to see less regression and we can gut all regression perks”.
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The moment you try to be creative and go perks that don't contribute to gen regression you get always get 2 or 3 gens done before your first hook. It's the known standard against competent survivors ( I'm not even talking about sweaty swf, let alone MS / Wallhack hackers who are rampart in the game ) and from that very moment you have two options - tunnel someone asap or try to spread the hooks and end up camping the last guy because all other gens will be done. It's just the fact.
Killers are required to have massive amount of slowdown or play high mobility killers because there's physically no way to keep everyone occupied at the same time. Just because some people are doing obvious mistakes and getting caught early doesn't mean every game will have such person who'll play a role of an equalizer in the match. Very often, you will be dealing against capable players who understand what to do and won't waste time so if your perk loadout as killer consists of something else than slowdown, you will feel the difference.
All these requests of meta change are senseless. The moment something else becomes meta the new wave of complaints will flood in, asking for the change. I'm sure even if killers where forced to play with random perk loadout every time, there would still be people asking to make the randomizer pick perks from specific list so they don't synergize or stack with each other.
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The reason why 4 slowdown perks are commonly ran is not out of being "forced" to, it's because most other options just don't provide as good as value as 4 slowdown does.
For example, if you wanted to do an anti-heal build your perk choices are:
Gift of Pain, Coulphobia, Sloppy, Leverage, Nurses, Pentimento at 2+ stacks (but goodluck getting that without plaything), Thana (to force heals to interupt) or Blood Warden (to make catching survivors injured easier).
While some of those perks are okay, most of them will be providing little value on most killers. And with the recent nerfed to mangled, sloppy and killer addons that inflict mangled are weaker as well.
And unfortunately this has always been an issue with perk balance. We get a lot of interesting perk concepts that just don't get used because their values are too low or they are too conditional. Anti-skillcheck builds being completely pivotal around lullaby staying up and reaching 5 stacks while also requiring other perks to support it. At least Devour Hope itself doesn't need support for it to be dangerous if you do get the stacks up.
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- Killer is weakest in the early game, it is quite literally designed as so. Losing two to three gens is not an automatic loss on killer as the last two gens usually take 2,3,4 times as long as the first pop. If you are consistently losing this many gens on your first chase than your A.) either not finding people quick enough or B.) you're not downing people / spreading pressure well enough. Run Lethal Pursuer or Corrupt if this is truly happening to you this often. If you can get a down within the first gen popping, odds are you're winning that game.
- Yes, you will of course feel the difference in game speed when not running slowdown, that's a given. But, you will learn how to improve your gameplay and when and where you need to take chase, drop chase, pressure gens, pressure altruism, etc. It teaches you how to play the game better and of course you'll lose more, but playing with full stacked slowdown just artificially enhances your skill. You've locked yourself in a cycle of feeling like you need to run full slowdown because you run full slowdown.
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lets change survivor meta while we are in it then, im tired of seeing WOO, adrenaline, resilience, distortion, off the record, sprint burst, lithe and unbreakable.
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pop and pain res are the only remaning good slowdowns. gen speeds are already insane even without toolboxes and prove theyself.
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If killer is weakest in the early game, how come there are so many games where all 4 people are sacrificed and 0 gens are done?
This game is designed around RNG. Got good spawn and gens are well spread? Good for you. Got bad spawn and killer found you in the first 5 or 10 seconds of the game? That's too bad.
This game's sense of balance is around how weak survivors are and how many mistakes they may do. In the match where everyone is competent, 1 hook = 1 or 2 gens is common because a chase can easily take 40 + seconds and if plan to run around ''disturbing'' people you will get nowhere in the end.
Perks like Lethal Pursuer or Corrupt work if you pick a killer that can utilize them. Even then there's RNG and luck factor involved. Try using these perks on someone with lower mobility or non-range killer and you will see how useless these perks will become for you. Slowdowns are reliable on all killers, this is why people choose to use them more over other perks right now.
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Can’t say I share that same experience. I use Lethal every game on every killer and often I play M1 killers as I’m fond of their playstyles and mindgames that come with it and I get use out of lethal every game. It gives you so much info at the weakest part of the game for killer. Allows you to enter chase quickly and know the positions of their teammates if you need to drop and change targets.
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yeah this pop/pr/grim meta is so ######### boring
not opposed to ppl running what they want,, it's just after the nth game of it in a row it just becomes exhausting and I'm ready to gg next and will all but give up on the match. It just compounds onto the already terrible solo experience
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I get it that stacking 4 gen slowdown perks is really sweaty and mean, but that part about "Eruption-levels of absurdity" robs your comment of all credibility. You sound like you were around the Eruption-meta time, so have you forgotten how it was back then? Such claims are just utterly rediculous.
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Standing next to a gen you can't actually work on for about 30 seconds while you contemplate life sounds exactly like Eruption meta.
The fact that I could heal or open a chest is literally meaningless when by my own free choice and will I would be doing the gen. The only reason I'm not doing that is the killer's perk.
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That would require gen progression and toolboxes to be nerfed.
I play with only Surge and Deadman's Switch on Onryo and manage pretty normalized games. If I were to swap to something that had no regression it wouldn't be possible to keep up, especially on larger maps against teams who are coordinated and manage both gens and tapes (which the tape part is more rare considering I still average at least 1 mori across all my matches with the new version of Sadako)
That, or all the lesser M1 killers magically get something that puts them in the same playing field as Blight or Huntress, or at least halfway to them.
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I think you are missing the point.
There are many times in the past where BHVR noticed that people thought that certain addons were "required" to play certain killers. Because when you didn't play with that addon, it felt really bad. Some examples come to mind:
- Wraith windstorm (movement speed while cloaked) [back before you ran faster while stealthed]
- Pig combat straps (less crouch time)
- Hillbilly overheat addons to cool faster (before they did the recent rework)
- Demogorgon movement speed while charging your power
These are just a few. But in each of these cases, what BHVR did, was buff the basekit, and then nerf the addon. Such that, when you take the addon it was the same as it was before, but if you don't take the addon, it doesn't feel as bad as not taking it.
I'm saying that it currently feels bad when you have 0 slowdown perks because the basekit regression is so bad. So, if people want to stop seeing 4 slowdown perks stacked on top of each other, buff the basekit, and nerf the perks.
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I get that, and it's definitely not a bad way of going around it. Doing that though would just make me think that people would continue to stack regression (granted they would be nerfed in this scenario) and that combined with the buffed base regression, nothing would really change from what we're seeing right now. Could be totally wrong, but I feel like we've seen this scenario play out before with tunneling where there's always going to be a reason for it to be prevalent, no matter what gets added, buffed or nerfed.
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I mostly have matches where these perks aren't needed because people are relatively easy to find, but then I also get those swfs stacks, where chasing someone usually takes time and other people just slam gens. TTV players are somewhere in between those. Of course the honorable mention goes to WH / MS cheaters and squad with these tools who run at ''115'' and easily outrun Bloodlust 1 / 2, can't be mindgamed at all and do gens with phenomenal speed. Out of all these, I'd say having a reliable slowdown does work most of the time. There are also those 1 / 10 matches where 0 slowdown perk load out works very well but I don't consider those as they could be other factors involved instead, such as people who have quests, troll and sandbag or simply are inexperienced.
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That's totally fair, your experience is entirely valid and if you feel you have more fun when running slowdown perks, by all means continue.
I just personally have found the game much more enjoyable since I started running chase / meme builds. Sure, I don't win as much as I would while running slowdowns, and I'll come across the 4 mans with map offerings that are playing like we're playing comp, but I try not to let those games stick out in my mind more than the others. Coup de Grace has become basekit in my builds and I genuinely think it's one of the funniest / most fun perks to run in the game. Fire Up builds, Dark Devotion builds, etc. have all been super enjoyable for me to run, win or loss. It's also really helped me realize where I need to be better as a killer as I'm no longer getting that extra 2-3 minutes from slowdowns and that if I don't create my own pressure, I'll surely get 4 escaped.
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I'd say slowdown perks are often the necessity than fun. On some killers I have only deadlock as a slowdown and often those matches are 50 50. I noticed that current RNG simply doesn't allow the use of large amount of perks, as well as Hex totems as killer. When it comes to survivor, plenty of perks can't be used in soloQ because there's no way to coordinate things and large amount of selfish players means going into a match without at least 1 perk dedicated to recovery or chase / escape will end with bad time for you.
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WOO is quite literally only used for pathing reasons since you’ll know where pallets and windows are running windows won’t make you a better looper, adren one time use and is already going through a tweak, resilience puts you more at risk if you choose to stay injure for that 9% distortion hides aura and half the time people with distortion avoid contact with killer letting their team die, otr being used isn’t a shock a ton of people are tunneling and people would like to play the game so they run anti tunnel, sprint burst and lithe are exhaustion perks to help in chase and after dh nerf the only exhaustion perks worth using and quite literally I’ve seen so little in breakable and you can’t get value out of it unless you’re slugged
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I much preferred Ruin Undying meta over this lame meta. Just because something is meta or popular isn't a good enough reason to nerf something, but this particular one is obnoxious
I much preferred OG Pain Res, too. Perk was just what ham killers needed. It may be more """"""""balanced""""""""" but nobody likes it.
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Not to mention because killers want specific elements of survivor gameplay nerfed (healing, stealth) survivors move away from perks or items that do those things… in favor of what? Gen efficiency. I’ve seen several threads where killers called for healing to be nerfed then killers where all pikachu face about why survivors aren’t healing during matches. Like what did you all expect?
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My favorite was during the Attack on Titan shakeup; wow, what a utopian killer paradise Dbd is now!
Wait, survivors have no time to goof off and now have increased anxiety over being tunneled and now just do gens? The horror! This new killer supremacy update is too survivor sided!
And it wasn't even a numbers change, it was a mentality change that increased survivor efficiency.
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The other options aren't that attractive, to say the least. It's hard to justify using Surge, Undone or Ruin when Pop and PainRes are so much better. Also, by nerfing other perks like STBFL or Sloppy, BHVR naturally steer killers toward the better regression perks.
What really makes me sigh in game is when these come with DMS and Grim Embrace. It's the most autopilot build ever, and staring at a blocked gen is just... ugh...
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That’s not gonna happen 99% of the time it’s unjustified but 1% of the time it’s a very valid strat. I ran into a p400 lobby and I could immediately tell they were above my skill level. After they popped two gens I decided to tunnel out one of the people I hooked twice and even then I struggled to keep up. So I started slugging when there was one gen left. And I ended up 4k’ing. If I did neither of those things I would’ve got 4 man outed, for sure.
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