Adrenaline, Terminus and Tunneling
Whenever killers complain about adrenaline, I often hear survivors often say to bring NoEd/ Terminus to counter it.
So I say If tunneling and slugging is such a big problem why not bring OTR/ Unbreak or other perks to Counter it? I bring OTR every game because how insanely strong it is. Allowing you to hide when injured/ deny aura reads and prevent tunneling. Should we have to bring perks to counter other popular perks?
I have seen a surge of decisive strikes during this event and funnily enough everyone is using it very aggressively by running straight at me across the map after being unhooked. Which I don’t have a problem with but I will say if it goes back to a 5 second stun I’ll probably just slug aggressive survivors.
Comments
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Regarding slugging, the issue is with extended slugging, ie., going for the bleed-outs. Unbreakable only works once, and Exponential is far too unreliable to be a proper counter to it.
As for tunnelling, OtR only works if the killer doesn't see the unhook. And if they're a mobility killer, eating an Endurance hit does virtually nothing.
Aggressive DS's are a non-issue, I think. Since getting it to work requires not doing anything of note.
Terminus only half-counters Adrenaline. They're denied the heal, sure, but they still get massive distance.
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Is Adrenaline a problematic perk? If you're wondering, it seems like SWF can be used to the fullest. Well, personally, I don't care.
Also, the inability to use OTR is due to the rescuer's incompetence, so those who were undone should complain to the survivor who unhook you about his poor performance.
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UB only works once sure but it can change a whole game. Same with Deli. OTR does a lot against tunneling killers on all kinds It’s extremely underrated and even if you touch a Gen you are still completely silent and immune to all aura reads for 80 seconds. And it works on every killer lol not just mobility killers.
Aggressive DS’s are a non issue but I just don’t want to hear any crying about slugging when they blatantly try to use it on me lol.
And we all could’ve had base kit UB but no one wanted the finisher Mori. They could’ve made it to where if anyone had a pick up perk then it wouldn’t auto Mori. That was the best chance to fix slugging but instead of trying to rework it, everyone just complained until it got removed.
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OTR is useless against a tunneling Killer. They'll just hit you off hook and now you can't use any other endurance perks or items.
UB is fine, I guess. It works once and you usually just getb whacked down immediately.
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An Insane amount of perks are useless against someone who hits off hook, Deli, Adren, BT, and so on. The difference is OTR still denies aura reads and grunts of pain. It’s literally dead hard that can’t be missed on an 80 second timer. And how often do you get hit off hook? I would say it happened about 1 in 20 games for me if that.
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Which does very little if the Killer is on your ass immediately post-unhook lol
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This discussion leads nowhere. Yes, both sides have counters to strategies that they won't or don't often bring into matches. Yes, people will suggest that you somehow have the foresight to bring the exact counter to the perk they may or may not have. No, those arguments don't make any sense.
Pulling an Us vs Them as if to say "How do you like it?" on survivors isn't fixing anything, cause trust me, they hear the same thing from us about all the surv perks you brought up in this post.
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It's never really a good idea to have a perk counter to something base-kit or free. Any killer can tunnel at any skill level even without any perks. And tunneling even at an extremely early level often leads to very successful games because survivors don't know how to counter it yet and they don't have the tools to do so. And then you add in the factor that the anti-tunneling perks like OTR or DS is NOT a free base game perk and you have to pay for it with either in game currency or actual money...it's not a good/fair comparison. Especially when you consider that if the anti-tunnel perks were very effective, tunneling wouldn't be as big of an issue as it has been. Unfortunately in their current state those perks are just annoying inconveniences rather than effect detterents as they can be countered with a simple m1.
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Bringing a perk to counter a specific other perk is bad game design, but do you know what's even worse? Needing to use perks to counter something the other side can do for free.
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You're comparing a perk with other perks that counter it, and then a perk to something inherently strong that doesn't require a perk. One requires the survivors to do their entire objective for a singular reward which could be a detriment to a high-reward play with low risk.
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Because right now the survivor issue is that too many perks are mandatory to bring to counter common meta Killer Perks/strategies. Calm Spriit for UW, Unbreakable for Slugging, DS/OTR for tunnelling, Distortion for full Aura Reading builds, so it's a game of "what perks are an absolute MUST", which turns out to be a massive gamble in itself. Killer didn't run UW and I have Calm Spirit? Dead perk slot. Killer has 4 slowdown and I have Distortion? Dead perk slot.Whereas most of the time EVERY survivor at high MMR is running Adrenaline so slapping on Terminus/NoED and having your three free perk slots still available while getting almost guaranteed value from Terminus and/or NoED is a massive boon.
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I bring OTR all the time. It often helps me to enable other survivors to escape but not always (note I said other survivors). I consider it mandatory on my survivor builds.
That doesn't change the fact that tunneling at the current level of occurrence it's at is unhealthy and makes the game significantly less fun. DbD is at its most enjoyable when played with multiple hooks which is a minority of games now.
So, in my opinion, nuke tunneling from orbit, give Killers incentives to spread hooks and punish Killers that tunnel.
The game would be better if tunneling were very much a suboptimal strategy and spreading hooks was more common.
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Terminus isn’t a free perk either yet they always say “just bring terminus” and it doesn’t even fully counter Adren.
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You know that's not going to help much if you're getting tunneled right? There's still scratch marks and blood pools only way you loose a survivor and you're tunneling is if you aren't very experienced in chase. Which is a catch 22 because tunneling makes you bad at chase. That's why when a lot of killers get to high mmr (myself included until I learned how to actually play killer) start to complain about things like adren or ds because the survivors are actually good at countering tunneling because they are better at looping.
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The only argument I have to this is that while it's completely normal to play perks that counter the meta, you can't really counter basic gameplay.
Killers are made to catch you. That's why bloodlust exists. You can't loop *forever*.
While no one is gonna agree with each other on the far sides of the arguments, I think that the gameplay style and the perpetuating of same is a problem.
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Bloodlust came about long ago as an answer to infinites, which no longer exist. Bloodlust was meant to go away with them. If killers were ‘meant’ to always catch survivors the kill rate would be at 100% because no survivor would be able to escape a trial… since they’re ’meant’ to be caught.
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The aggressive survivor with DS Crouching in a doorway to force the killer to hit them, either giving the other survivor free distance if the killer commits to that survivor or stunning the killer with DS if the killer switches to them...
Yeah... "nothing of note."
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free distance, or a free slug?
one survivor literally went down for it. that's not "free" distance. hell, it's free pressure.
one's still being chased, one's on the floor, and another has to go pick the other up.
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The counter to Adrenaline is to win early, which can easily be done in 74% of my matches. (Not even counting the wins post gens popped.)
If I'm only supposed to win ~50-60% of matches (depending on how you interpret the intended 60% kill rate), then I'd say that isn't a large problem at all. NoeD on paper is the correct counter to it, but I typically don't plan on countering anything less than a 'full' perk (4/16 slots). I focus on my win-con, or hooking and killing Survivors so I pump my lethality as much as I can (Coup/Bam/Enduring/STBFL/or whatever 'win more' type of perk I feel like).
As others mentioned about tunneling, OTR and DS don't work if the Killer actually planned on tunneling. OTR is disabled by hitting fresh off hook, and DS gives ~6m of distance in the best of cases, which is nothing when the Killer plans on tunneling. Even then, worst case scenario both sides are in a circumstance where their opposition could do something they don't like. The major difference is tunneling is supported by the basegame mechanics (3 Survivors are a free win for Killer with more than 1 gen remaining, and Survivors are injured coming off hook). Another way of looking at this is Adrenaline is earned by completing ~80% of that sides' objective (and requiring a perk), but Tunneling is 'earned' by completing ~8-25% of that sides' objective (can tunnel off first hook 1/12, or dead on hook 3/12) and also doesn't require a perk.
Slugging is more specifically complaining about 1 minute or more on the floor. There is no benefit other than to spite/annoy a player by flooring them for more than a minute. If another Survivor is flying like a bee (threatening a rescue), it takes ~20s to damage them and run them off (or force the pallet they would try to save with). That means it needs all 3 remaining Survivors flying around to be net positive time efficient, but then the Killer has no one on gens with free injuries. I would prefer a surrender option/instableedout over a self-pickup after a minute, but both would solve the problem. A self-pickup would not encourage the Knockout gamers though, so it would probably be healthier for the game to implement a self-pickup after 1m of recovering.
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Because "some" survivors are not all survivors. Sure some will come with that when killers complain about adrenaline, but is that the reason to behave in the same way towards survivors which justifiably complain towards tunneling and slugging? Are you for real now? One is a perk which can help against another perk, the other is to extra use perks for these killers who just wont play in a normal or fair way only to have at least a bit of a chance against that "game mechanics"
No matter what, to say it is the same, when in the one situation there is a good way to work against a certain perk, while in the other you have to bring EXTRA perks for these killers who just can not play any good.
I think it is pretty much annoying to extra build a certain perkbuild only these killers misuse "game mechanics" to take over the whole match only in their favor. If your answer to this behaviour is, that every survivor NEED to bring these perks, than why should the game keep all the other perks then? If you have to deal with this dirty stuff then just bring these or that perk, and forget about the playstyle you want to play, since nowadays good killers are so rare you pretty much can throw any other perks other than these you mentioned right in the trash. Cause why the hell play how you wanna play, when all you need to do is play with the anti tunnel, camp, slug perks ALL THE TIME CAUSE ALL THE KILLERS OUT THERE ARE SO SOFTSKINNED THEY JUST CAN NOT PLAY WITHOUT PLAYING HIGHLY UNFAIR, CAUSE THEY COULD LOSE OH MY GOOOOD!
Hope I can make my point clear. Sure there are perks which can help, but should the killers just try to play fair and normal? Why have I been forced to bring a certain perkbuild cause of all the killers which just can behave like the whole game is only for them?
And the whole game is about to use perks to outplay perks. THAT IS WHAT THE GAME IS ABOUT. But the game is not about use perks to outplay "game mechanics" which are toxic and bad and in almost every case destroy the whole game. These so called "game mechanics" (tunneling, camping, slugging etc.) are in the game yes, but yet to use them make you not a good killer, it make you a lazy one which misuse these "game mechanics" cause of selfish means and selfisch means ALONE! So why should we now debate about how to prevent that with any perk build, while the better discussion would be, HOW DO WE MAKE THE KILLERS REFLECT? I mean it IS a toxic playstyle period!
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The difference is tunneling and slugging are Base kit free killer slowdowns that you don't have to through on a perk for is the main difference as well as you can't compair the 2 the amout of pressure slugging and tunneling as compared to any survivour perks in the game to counter that it legit take a minute to get up with unbreakable or even heal
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Little bit of topping but I think the aggressive ds survivors are probably trying to do the "stun the Killer to steal blood"- Challenge.
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