Intentional De-Ranking - What is YOUR Opinion?
Answers
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@Master said:
Reducing the ranks of the rank system doesnt help, the devs already tried this by effectively removing ranks 20-15 from the pool and the only thing that has causes were absurd queue times for beginners.
If you dont allow the majority of the community (rank 1 is a joke) to drop below 5, then I dont wanna be stuck on the lower ranks....... I imagine waiting times ~1 hour
I haven't ever experienced unbearable lobby times at R1 killer, with the notable exception of the first week of the hallowed blight event. Other than that, I've always had 2 minute lobbies at the most, even on double bloodpoint days. Could all be a region-based problem?
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Hey guys!
I want to take a minute to salute the way almost everyone in this thread discussed this very sensitive subject without resulting to insults or accusing members of our community.
I am keeping an eye on this subject and I will keep bringing feedback to the team.
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@not_Queen said:
Hey guys!I want to take a minute to salute the way almost everyone in this thread discussed this very sensitive subject without resulting to insults or accusing members of our community.
I am keeping an eye on this subject and I will keep bringing feedback to the team.
Guys what are we doing? This isn't how the forum is supposed to work. QUICK someone start a needless argument and insult someone!
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*throws a chair*thesuicidefox said:@not_Queen said:
Hey guys!I want to take a minute to salute the way almost everyone in this thread discussed this very sensitive subject without resulting to insults or accusing members of our community.
I am keeping an eye on this subject and I will keep bringing feedback to the team.
Guys what are we doing? This isn't how the forum is supposed to work. QUICK someone start a needless argument and insult someone!
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@Rebel_Raven said:
thesuicidefox said:@not_Queen said:
Hey guys!
I want to take a minute to salute the way almost everyone in this thread discussed this very sensitive subject without resulting to insults or accusing members of our community.
I am keeping an eye on this subject and I will keep bringing feedback to the team.
Guys what are we doing? This isn't how the forum is supposed to work. QUICK someone start a needless argument and insult someone!
throws a chair
vomits on floor
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@Rebel_Raven said:
throws a chair@Brady said:
vomits on floorAhhh.... much better
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I used to intentionally De-rank because I loved how free I was able to play, I didn't have to care about kills nor did I have to care about my rank (which was around rank 8 before deranking). It felt nice and was fairly fun especially because I could do little mini-games with the low-rank survivors, for example playing doc making them go Madness 3 and smaking them whenever they fail a skill-check. Or just seeing people not know what Scratched mirror is, and just hitting them once and returning to the shadows making them to paranoid to move alone. I'd say it's ok if you play fair and try to have a good and fun time of survivors, it's scummy if you only play to win and to basically bully the low-rank survivors or killers that is only scummy and ruins the experiece. Playing for fun and not trying to actually kill those surivors can sometimes be a shitload of fun, and it's something you won't see in rank 1, neither will you often meet people who afterwards add you so that you can help them understand the game which I find extremely enjoyable. I stopped doing it tho after I got close to rank 12 after which I just wen't to try and hit rank 1 which I eventually did and where I am stuck right now.
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I do not condone it by any means, however, please understand why high ranked players may be doing this.
1. Long ques.
2. Same old, same old.
I don’t like that people are doing it for other means; whether it be survivors who are just starting it out are being brutally destroyed by the killer and can ruin experience for them. Since high ranked players- are relatively new, or haven’t played during the season yet, by no means should they be forced to face killers of red ranks. Not to say it wouldn’t be a learning experience, but the tremendous amount of tutorials online help provide useful information for said player. Remember, all people are playing this game for varying reasons and have differentiating goals from one another. If a red ranked player decides to go up to white purely to bully the people that aren’t as good as them, is much like the well-known issue known as smurfing. The process itself is not only dreadful if the person who is throwing is a survivor; as they wish to stray away from all objectives and blatantly fail to partake in gameplay in order to receive what they wish. I’m not fond of putting my ideas in a controversial topic, but I’m going to regardless.0 -
I never intentionally de-ranked, but I was thinking about it because of the "Evil Incarnate" achievement. If ranking is supposed to be going up against skilled and experienced players because you are high rank too, then I would want to go against my level too and not just because I got lucky in a few games. I don't have much experience with tombstones and I would just get bullied with really good survivors, so I would want to go against survivors with my skill level.
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@Orion said:
It's partly why the rank system is broken and everyone who does it should be banned.What they should do is temp ban everyone who does. Fog Whisperer or not, the devs need to stop being afraid of taking action and they need to show that they aren't fooling around.
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@Raccoon said:
Do NOT single out any particular players.
Do NOT be disrespectful.What's your opinion on intentionally De-Ranking for any reason?
Personally, I feel like it ruins the gameplay experience on so many levels, whether that means destroying lower ranked survivors, frustrating new killers, or carrying less skillful players in matches that should be learning experiences for them.
I'm personally hoping that with the eventual installation of dedicated servers, that harsher penalties follow.
Most people dont rerank to ruin others experiences, but so they stop facing the SAME people over and over and over again. Really this should be directed at the devs for such poor match making rather than the players
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@Victory said:
@Raccoon said:
Do NOT single out any particular players.
Do NOT be disrespectful.What's your opinion on intentionally De-Ranking for any reason?
Personally, I feel like it ruins the gameplay experience on so many levels, whether that means destroying lower ranked survivors, frustrating new killers, or carrying less skillful players in matches that should be learning experiences for them.
I'm personally hoping that with the eventual installation of dedicated servers, that harsher penalties follow.
Most people dont rerank to ruin others experiences, but so they stop facing the SAME people over and over and over again. Really this should be directed at the devs for such poor match making rather than the players
That's how high ranks work in any game. Only the very top players should be able to reach the top ranks.
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@Orion said:
@Victory said:
@Raccoon said:
Do NOT single out any particular players.
Do NOT be disrespectful.What's your opinion on intentionally De-Ranking for any reason?
Personally, I feel like it ruins the gameplay experience on so many levels, whether that means destroying lower ranked survivors, frustrating new killers, or carrying less skillful players in matches that should be learning experiences for them.
I'm personally hoping that with the eventual installation of dedicated servers, that harsher penalties follow.
Most people dont rerank to ruin others experiences, but so they stop facing the SAME people over and over and over again. Really this should be directed at the devs for such poor match making rather than the players
That's how high ranks work in any game. Only the very top players should be able to reach the top ranks.
Thats not how it works in DBD though, you just need to invest enough time within a single month
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@Orion said:
@Victory said:
@Raccoon said:
Do NOT single out any particular players.
Do NOT be disrespectful.What's your opinion on intentionally De-Ranking for any reason?
Personally, I feel like it ruins the gameplay experience on so many levels, whether that means destroying lower ranked survivors, frustrating new killers, or carrying less skillful players in matches that should be learning experiences for them.
I'm personally hoping that with the eventual installation of dedicated servers, that harsher penalties follow.
Most people dont rerank to ruin others experiences, but so they stop facing the SAME people over and over and over again. Really this should be directed at the devs for such poor match making rather than the players
That's how high ranks work in any game. Only the very top players should be able to reach the top ranks.
Thats how it should work. Problem is, rankings in this game is not about ability, but about time investment. My wife who is utterly horrible at killer has in a month made it to rank 5. If she can rank up, any one can.
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I only actively avoid red ranks.
I gave it a good try for about a year, but i found only 1 every 72 people to be fun there.
Other than that it's fine i guess.1 -
@lasombra1979 said:
Thats how it should work. Problem is, rankings in this game is not about ability, but about time investment. My wife who is utterly horrible at killer has in a month made it to rank 5. If she can rank up, any one can.
Somehow I find your statement a bit exaggerated. If anyone was truly horrible, he/she wouldn't ever pip. I tell you that because even when hooking everybody once, you can still depip. Getting to Rank 5 means she was getting at least 2ks consistently, 6-9 hooks every game. That would sound to me as a solid killer.
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I am fine with it. As long as you don't derank past rank 10 as a rank 1 survivor.
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@Condorloco_26 said:
@lasombra1979 said:
Thats how it should work. Problem is, rankings in this game is not about ability, but about time investment. My wife who is utterly horrible at killer has in a month made it to rank 5. If she can rank up, any one can.
Somehow I find your statement a bit exaggerated. If anyone was truly horrible, he/she wouldn't ever pip. I tell you that because even when hooking everybody once, you can still depip. Getting to Rank 5 means she was getting at least 2ks consistently, 6-9 hooks every game. That would sound to me as a solid killer.
Play Legion and you will literally never depip.
You don't get a single kill you'll still pip because he boosts chaser to iridescent almost every game without effort.
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I didn't visit the forum for a while so apologies for bringing that topic back up again after it's gotten rather quiet here. The topic is still very present and very important, so...
From what I've seen, people excuse purposely deranking with "playing stress-free in lower ranks", which is kinda a fair excuse but rather selfish.
Players that want to play stress-free and don't want to tryhard can join a casual queue. Players that want a challenge, want to win, can join the (a lot more complex & harder) ranked queue. I think these two game modes are mandatory for a game like DbD and the current situation kinda proves this.
Almost every online multiplayer game has these kind of game modes to seperate casuals and tryhards and provide a proper environment for everyone, depending on their prefered playstyle.
I'm a massive tryhard myself and it kinda ruins the experience for me when I get matched with casuals that don't even try - especially in Rank 1. At the same time I probably ruin a lot of other players fun simply because I tryhard and they don't. In the end it's often a lose-lose situation which causes frustration that ultimately leads to toxic behaviour.
I would really like to see DbD improve in that regard. A stats tracking system and a more complex ranking system would also help to balance the game, as you'd have more detailed and accurate data available. High rank would actually represent high skilled players. Right now, it's only the quantity that matters - the more you play, the higher you get. High quality gameplay is irrelevant.
Of course the seasonal deranking is also kind of a problem but that thing just exists to keep us motivated. It breaks the matchmaking but in the end it's also what keeps us playing. Maybe they could add some prestige ranks for every season that you reached Rank 1, this would promote players to stay in Rank 1.
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I think intentional de-ranking via suicide or d/c is bad. It ruins the experience for everyone else. I was bored for a time and basically just ran sabbo, a map and cleansed totems. If I wasn't safety pipping, I was losing a pip 'cause I wasn't really doing much else otherwise. I also ran leader so that I wasn't completely useless to the team lol. I think the match making system would improve if it had larger blocks. For instance, 1-5, 5-10, 5-15, and 15-20. That way you'll get more variety with what you face. I also think it would be helpful to have a penalty for leaving the game via d/c and to figure out a way to detect the cheat people are using to reset their ranks 'cause that's clearly not fair.
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@OGlilSPOOK20 said:
Who cares? This game shouldn't even have Rank anyways. This game is nowhere near competitive.You can tell a difference between the ranks, though. You'll know if you're facing a rank 15~20 vs a rank 5~10 for instance.
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@Condorloco_26 said:
@lasombra1979 said:
Thats how it should work. Problem is, rankings in this game is not about ability, but about time investment. My wife who is utterly horrible at killer has in a month made it to rank 5. If she can rank up, any one can.
Somehow I find your statement a bit exaggerated. If anyone was truly horrible, he/she wouldn't ever pip. I tell you that because even when hooking everybody once, you can still depip. Getting to Rank 5 means she was getting at least 2ks consistently, 6-9 hooks every game. That would sound to me as a solid killer.
Fact is that the emblem system has made ranking up ridiculously easy. In other games we dont have this because there is only one side "winning" and gaining elo.
And no, you can even rank up with 0 kills, its just a joke (and you can blackpip with 4k, the irony.....)
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- New rank template 100 to 1.
- It could lower the rank only when giving "prestige" in a character 8-)
- Killer and Survivor are separated!
- Without reset rank!
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@Master said:
Fact is that the emblem system has made ranking up ridiculously easy. In other games we dont have this because there is only one side "winning" and gaining elo.
And no, you can even rank up with 0 kills, its just a joke (and you can blackpip with 4k, the irony.....)
Yeah I've experienced some unexplainable emblem stuff. Man do we need a whole ranking system rework.
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Its fine, people that are saying it should be gone are all Survivor mains
Survivors can already fight low rank Killers (EG Rank 15-20 Killers) being rank 1, by queueing with another friend that is low rank.So 3 rank 1 survivor + 1 rank 18 survivor friend will vs a Rank 20 Killer. That is BS and this has not been fixed
Why should i get punished to play at high rank when most of the killers are trash? and that i am forced to play competitive killers, i dont want to play Nurse everygame thank you
no ranking incentive, no ranking rewards, nothing, until they added incentive for ranking there is no reason to rank up, queues are longer, games are much harder and stressful, the game just isnt fun anymore
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@Someissues said:
Its fine, people that are saying it should be gone are all Survivor mainsSurvivors can already fight low rank Killers (EG Rank 15-20 Killers) being rank 1, by queueing with another friend that is low rank.So 3 rank 1 survivor + 1 rank 18 survivor friend will vs a Rank 20 Killer. That is BS and this has not been fixed
Why should i get punished to play at high rank when most of the killers are trash? and that i am forced to play competitive killers, i dont want to play Nurse everygame thank you
no ranking incentive, no ranking rewards, nothing, until they added incentive for ranking there is no reason to rank up, queues are longer, games are much harder and stressful, the game just isnt fun anymore
The SWF problem you are describing is a matchmaking issue, not a rankign issue.
A problem of the ranking system for example is that it allows you to reach the highest rank with unviable killers which should not be possible in a proper working rank system (because of the huge difference freddy-nurse e.g.)0 -
@Someissues said:
Its fine, people that are saying it should be gone are all Survivor mainsSurvivors can already fight low rank Killers (EG Rank 15-20 Killers) being rank 1, by queueing with another friend that is low rank.So 3 rank 1 survivor + 1 rank 18 survivor friend will vs a Rank 20 Killer. That is BS and this has not been fixed
SWF was changed long ago to take the average rank between all players in the SWF. So 3 rank 1s + a rank 18 makes their average around rank 5. So they are actually making the game very hard for their rank 18 friend. It works this way MOST times, not saying there hasn't been the issue you've mentioned above though.
Why should i get punished to play at high rank when most of the killers are trash? and that i am forced to play competitive killers, i dont want to play Nurse everygame thank you
TBH in the high ranks I've seen a good range of killer choices. However getting up into the high ranks tend to have the most nurses.
no ranking incentive, no ranking rewards, nothing, until they added incentive for ranking there is no reason to rank up, queues are longer, games are much harder and stressful, the game just isnt fun anymore
Yee no incentives is the issue I see. There is no reason to be in the high ranks for just the "challenge" of it.
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how is this even a discussion? its againt the rules to disconnect from matches on purpose. and the devs are even support streamers who do that by making them to fog whisperes. im actually shocked.
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@Kenshin said:
how is this even a discussion? its againt the rules to disconnect from matches on purpose. and the devs are even support streamers who do that by making them to fog whisperes. im actually shocked.Cause it would be better to offer the Devs what we believe might be the cause of why people intentionally derank. Rather then have discussions about bashing people that do it. I think as a whole people would like to see something done to help lessen the number of people who want to do it.
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People derank for 2 reasons.
1) They want to bully and always win against people with less experience, addons and or perks.
2) The ranking system is completely broken. The newer player will play a couple of specific killers or survivors and zoom up in rank. Then they get smashed cause they dont have access to key perks or they want to try new characters and proceed to completely smashed because they are still high rank with a low leveled killer or survivor.
So they can either derank to try to get on more even terms or spend hours grinding on their previously played killer or survivor which they are tired of playing to level up the new killer or survivor till they are playable. We dont have to guess what the majority are choosing to do.1 -
@TheBean said:
@Someissues said:
Its fine, people that are saying it should be gone are all Survivor mainsSurvivors can already fight low rank Killers (EG Rank 15-20 Killers) being rank 1, by queueing with another friend that is low rank.So 3 rank 1 survivor + 1 rank 18 survivor friend will vs a Rank 20 Killer. That is BS and this has not been fixed
SWF was changed long ago to take the average rank between all players in the SWF. So 3 rank 1s + a rank 18 makes their average around rank 5. So they are actually making the game very hard for their rank 18 friend. It works this way MOST times, not saying there hasn't been the issue you've mentioned above though.
Thats simply not true
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In my opinion deranking is inevitable due to the game mechanic. The devs themselves stated that only Billy and Nurse are viable on high ranks. So if you not enjoy to play with a limited Killer pool/perk set, you start to derank. There is also no ingame incentive, besides boasting over a non valuable rank number, to be high rank. Mid to low rank you get faster, easier and funnier games with more variety.
The real question should be, why NOT to derank?0 -
People who derank mess things up for the players who actually belong to the ranks that people are deranking to. There should be something more punishing in place for people who repeatedly derank, but more than that there should be an incentive to higher ranks.
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You're! You're! You're!.... you're a! You're a!.... uhhhmmmm!.... where was I going with this?...thesuicidefox said:@not_Queen said:
Hey guys!I want to take a minute to salute the way almost everyone in this thread discussed this very sensitive subject without resulting to insults or accusing members of our community.
I am keeping an eye on this subject and I will keep bringing feedback to the team.
Guys what are we doing? This isn't how the forum is supposed to work. QUICK someone start a needless argument and insult someone!
Camper!!...... ha!.... take that xD0 -
I don't care.
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It's hard to really put a definite yes or no answer due to many variables.
Personally I really dislike deranking as it allows good players to bully newer or less skilled ones but it there are also valid reasons to do it.
The problem comes down to the ranking system, right now getting to rank one is about time invested nothing more.
The red ranks are not a fun place to play for a lot of people, I have heard many people say it, it is full of players who are overly competative which makes them play differently, which is fine as it's how they want to play or feel they need to, the other problem is queue times as these can be a lot longer which may be in part due to derankers.
Another problem is the toxic userbase who like to taunt the other side and play in a way for revenge, flashlight spamming, tbagging, camping if they do etc.
How do you force somewhere to play somewhere they do not enjoy? What happens when those players decide it's not worth it, do they stop playing when they reach a certain point within the month? some players can get to red ranks in a matter of a few days, being a business I can understand the devs reluctance to force this issue.
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@Kenshin said:
how is this even a discussion? its againt the rules to disconnect from matches on purpose. and the devs are even support streamers who do that by making them to fog whisperes. im actually shocked.I think the discussion is including people who don't de-rank, but throw the game by not doing much to contribute or by dying.
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Rank 1 really is not that bad. Not enough to feel it is.okay to screw over others that try to rank up. Sandbaggers are mori material
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The way I am understanding things here, there are three groups of people de-ranking.
Group 1 De-ranks to avoid long que times. They are not necessarily wanting to have easier games, nor are they trying to troll lower-ranked people. They just want to play games, period. Right now que times are not overly bad, but recently we have seen some very bad que times in all ranks, not alone red ranks. The fix for this is not easy. It requires more people to play survivor on a steady basis. The numbers are better now than they were weeks ago, but it would be nice to increase the survivor player base. I, for one, hate playing survivor anymore for a couple of reasons:
1 - It is pretty boring. So many aspects of the game turn it into an M1 simulator. Camping, Tunneling, and Legion basically turn the game into a "hold M1" game. Who wants to do this on a regular basis?
2 - Killer gets tons more bp. I've run several tests, and even when que times are upwards of 15 minutes, I have made twice as much bp as a killer than I could as a survivor. (Run both as much as possible over an hour and you will see killer far outpaces survivor in bp.) Running killer eases the bp grind significantly. Give survivors a significant boost to bp and I think you make it much more attractive. (Leave out all the "killer does all the work" argument. Do you want a balanced player base or not? No reason whatsoever that survivors should grind three times as much to get the same bp.)Group 2 De-ranks because they don't like the toxic, serious atmosphere of the red and purple ranks. This is where I sit. I've been there, done that, burned the t-shirt. Getting to rank 1 is not that hard, we all know that. Maintaining red rank is not that hard either. It is not skill as much as time. The red ranks are filled with serious players that tend to be twice as toxic exponentially as the lower ranks. The SWF groups are less toxic and after-game chat is more enjoyable (most of the time) in the 10-16 bracket. If I outclass the survivors, I ease off. Make it fun, have a good time. Who cares if they escape? It is a playstyle choice. It is not something anyone expects all killers to do. It is a want to just play casually for fun. There is no fix for this. The player base is not big enough to split into casual and ranked. It is what it is.
Group 3 De-ranks to get easier games, or pwn lower ranked killers/survivors. This is the toxic group that gives the rest a bad wrap. How do you fix this group without hosing over the other two? This group feeds on the misery of other players. It is where you get your killers who face camp the first hook, or SWF depip squads who teabag their way to de-ranking a killer. There is no fix for sad people like this. The only way to fix it is to enforce a behavior policy, and that is a whole can of worms that BHVR does not likely want to open. Who can blame them?
If anyone does have solutions that will work in a small community game like this (less than 100k people playing regularly), please offer them up. I don't see how punishing casuals, or those who just want a game within a reasonable time, is a solution. It only discourages players and they move one, shrinking the community even more.
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@AssassinZodiac said:
This is probably a really stupid question, but here goes...
Why do they do rank reset monthly anyway?
If there are no ranking up rewards, what's the point of it?
Also, in my opinion, I think they should increase ranks to 100 instead of 20, and do away with rank reset. Do away with intentionally deranking past 2 ranks below your highest achieved level.
Just my two cents.Your two cents are to place the whole community at rank 100?
MIght aswell remove ranking completely then0 -
It's understandable why they do it.
You get boosted up the ranks too fast as killer. Most aren't ready to face 2000+ hour survivors who know every loop like the back of their hand.
Plus it takes too long to grind. As survivor you can put all your points into 1 character, as killer you need to level up every single one to make them playable.
I deranked one month after reset. I had paid for every single DLC character in the game so I wanted to use them, but I sure as hell wasn't going to play a weak killer like Pig or Freddy with unrelenting level 2, surveilance (pre-buff), iron grasp and monstrous shrine against the sweaty tryhard rank 1 survivors. It wouldn't be fun for me at all. Plus I wanted to try out Nurse and Huntress who play very differently to Clown who was my main at the time.
I had a blast. It wasn't about getting easy games, it was about getting enjoyable games. I didn't bring Billy or Clown and go tryhard, I just used weak killers or killers I wasn't very good with and it was less stressful.
Beyond that the game can be stale as hell in red ranks. It's pretty much P3 Claudettes with some combination of....
Sprint Burst/Dead Hard/balanced landing
self-care
decisive strike
adrenaline
urban evasion
borrowed timeThat's it. It's soooo boring and tryhard. Always abusing the most broken loops in the game too. It's just sweat, sweat, sweat. I tend to hold back a bit after reset just to get some fun out of the game before boosting up to the tryhard ranks. The meta is stale as hell.
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It should be impossible to derank past a bracket but it should get gradually harder to pip as you rank up. That's my only opinion about it. How that would be balanced I can't say but it's the easy answer for an annoying problem.
There is no solution to smurfing unless you did something crazy like all accounts on the same PC share rank. You should be able to climb faster in worse ranks when you're doing better than every single player though.
@OGlilSPOOK20 said:
Who cares? This game shouldn't even have Rank anyways. This game is nowhere near competitive.Although I agree with this. Past a certain point rank only separates playtime.
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I personally derank on both sides to stay in green - purple ranks for couple reasons.
As killer: Faster que and I want to play other killers than Billy and Spirit
As survivor: I want to face other killers than Billy, Spirit or Nurse
I consider myself as a well mannered gamer and care about my opponents fun as well. I play duo at max without crutch perks, items or toxic offerings.
So I approve the deranking when its done to have chill games when deranker plays chill as well. Yet I despise people that go out of their way to bully new killers with 4 man cwf with ds etc.
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I don't necessarily de-rank but I defintely do my best to not rank up. If this means playing well all game and dying at end game to try and avoid the double pip, well..whoops.
It doesn't really work since even a potato could easily climb to rank 1.0 -
Any dev/mod?
Hello?
Is this thing on?!0 -
I once tried to get to R1 killer and failed. The level of vile abuse I got, for nothing more than not doing well infuriated me so much that I vowed never to climb past green again.
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@Master said:
@TheBean said:
@Someissues said:
Its fine, people that are saying it should be gone are all Survivor mainsSurvivors can already fight low rank Killers (EG Rank 15-20 Killers) being rank 1, by queueing with another friend that is low rank.So 3 rank 1 survivor + 1 rank 18 survivor friend will vs a Rank 20 Killer. That is BS and this has not been fixed
SWF was changed long ago to take the average rank between all players in the SWF. So 3 rank 1s + a rank 18 makes their average around rank 5. So they are actually making the game very hard for their rank 18 friend. It works this way MOST times, not saying there hasn't been the issue you've mentioned above though.
Then please show were the devs said that this is no longer the case?.. Cause this is mentioned in the patch notes from years ago.
Did you even play when the match making took the SWF host's rank?.....So rank 1s could play with a SWF friend who was rank 20 and the match making would look for rank 20 killers?
Then that is when this got changed... a few months after SWF released. To take the average of the SWFs in the lobby and match making uses the SWF host for ping.
Not saying this is how it seems like it is working, but please show me were the devs changed this?
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