The Onyro - Feedback - Videos on why she’s still weak.
I am trying to make a collection of videos here for this thread as to why 3.0 sadako doesn’t hit the mark. I have more videos to feature, Video Proof is the best type feedback I think.
I have some solutions and obviously not all of them have to be implemented on my goal. I would love personally to see is Sadako 1.0 with today’s buffs.
- There should be a counter and there isn’t. Just like with Sadakos 1.0 frustration but worse because at least at that time you could use STBFL. That perk doesn’t help you now due to the 1 second interaction. 🤷🏼♂️
2. Telephone needs a buff. For a purple addon it’s weak. (Reposting, my apologies. )
3. Have no fear Onyro is here! Just kidding! Cleanse in her face, there’s nothing she can do even with STBFL. (These videos aren’t perfect but go give you an idea of the issues at hand)
Solution. Change to 1.5 for the interaction.
4. Onyros Stealth = 🗑️
Her stealth is countered by a loud lullaby.
If that doesn’t catch your attention the “Visual Terror Radius” will.
If that doesn’t catch your attention you can hear the direction she is coming from with her not only loud lullaby but behavior made it “DIRECTIONAL”
IF THAT doesn’t get your attention you can see her flicker in and out.
Addon - Clump of hair = 🗑️
(It was possible to get value out of this add-on before they implemented the visual terror radius. It should have always been base kit, because if you are in power DEMANIFESTED you shouldn’t be at the same visibility as you are, when manifested 🤦🏻♂️)
Guess what that also means?! Survivors pre-run this M1 killer with ease.
Possible Solution? Make the lullaby map wide.. no directional lullaby. (Even if it’s a addon) Clump of hair base kit OR reduce radius of lullaby, remove directional audio it shouldn’t be there anyways.
5. VCR = 🗑️
This add-on wasn’t even that good to begin with but now it’s completely useless.
You will never have to guess where she is because the TV will disappear and that is your cue to prerun. She’s M1 so you’re good…
Solution - aura stays on. (Auras of TVs shouldn’t be visible unless you have a tape in hand in my humble opinion)
Iri vídeo tape and tape editing deck = 🗑️
I am one survivor with half a brain, and I was able to turn off three TVs by myself, imagine what the other three survivors could do. Sadako doesn’t stand a chance. No mobility, No condemn, No TVs, but hey you might get a brief aura read :)
Solution - Bring passive condemn back for tape editing deck. Iri vídeo tape - remove EITHER 20% longer cooldown OR let condemn affect targets. (If too strong then half a stack.)
(I tried to organize this the best I could, it’s 3:30 in the morning so forgive me if things are not perfect or a little sloppy. I’m just passionate and I’m trying to make this right.)
Comments
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Pretty much sums up my current issues with Sadako as well. Some things feel nicer, but others feel way too easy when facing her. I tend to only get Mori's because survivors somehow still ignore tapes and attempt to pop gens ASAP ignoring their condemned build up until it's too late and they've got a ton of locked-in stacks. Otherwise, survivors who barely interact with them keep themselves cleansed while denying a lot of map pressure at the same time.
I wouldn't mind this, if the stealth weren't hard-countered by the lullaby radius. I've seen people say the lullaby should be bigger, which is a good argument against removing it for further mindgame potential. However, making it bigger promotes easier hiding as well, unless the survivor is in a deadzone so I would have to experience it personally to see which would be a better alternative. Map wide is also a very good alternative.
RIP VCR builds though, used to be my favorite mindgame. Alternatively, it'd be nice if the VCR hid all TV auras for 4-5 seconds every teleport.
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i miss 2.0 sadako, ngl
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I would hundred percent agree my friend! Your words also some of my experiences as well. I would love to see some tweaks to her stealth honestly…. Among a few other things.
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That's a pretty good summary of a few things troubling this killer. The interaction time being 1 second was a very vocal outcry ignored in the PTB. The amount of times I'd have a survivor insert the tape in the middle of a chase is just absurd.
If we're going to talk about addons, then might as well make ourselves a list here to overview what works and doesn't. This would be my own observations on the addons so please do include your own thoughts on anything here.
Videotape Copy (Grey) - An extra 2m range on Projection stacks is just really solid for a cheap addon. Not much else to say.
Old Newspaper (Grey) - Slightly longer invisibility after manifesting to make it last about a full second. It's okay. Fills the role of a grey addon.
Mother's Mirror (Grey) - Longer intermittent visibility duration after manifesting by a full two seconds. Pairs good with Old Newspaper or Well Water for mind games around pallets and loops.
Cabin Sign (Grey) - Effectively 10% off the TV cooldown to turn back on after teleporting to them. I know this is a grey addon, but it's honestly quite terrible. Going from 45 seconds to 40.5 just isn't worth even the grey addon when you will have a ton of yellow and green ones to use instead. I think 9 seconds being shaved off would be pretty good.
Yoichi's Fishing Net (Yellow) - An addon that got indirectly buffed with the 3.0 lock-in mechanic with her condemn. If you lock a survivor in with four stacks, they are permanently blind for the rest of the match with no hope of removing it. That's pretty dang strong and certainly gets people to want to remove their stacks before they're there for good. Blindness is really strong and so is this addon to cause confusion among survivors.
Well Stone (Yellow) - Basically Cabin Sign except it's 10% off of the cooldown for when survivors turn off the TVs themselves. Making it 63 seconds from 70 is alright. I'm still leaning towards a 20% so then it'd be 56 seconds instead to make these more worth using. This would also make it as a better pairing for the Iridescent Videotape to offset the penalty at the cost of an addon slot.
Sea-soaked Cloth (Yellow) - A potentially useful but really bad addon in practice that only affects the survivors who really ignore the TVs and are close enough to be affected by it. The TV aura and condemn range is 16 meters, but this only takes effect for when within 8 meters of the TV. It lingers for 7 seconds after turning off the TV, but it's just nonexistent outside of that range and there's always Yoichi's Fishing Net in this same rarity category to apply it for much longer. Honestly, I'd like to see this be reworked into something like Pig's Rule Set No.2 addon and have it hide TV auras to anyone without a tape. If not that, then a range increase would be good enough alongside a smaller-linger effect for when walking outside of the range.
Reiko's Watch (Yellow) - Intermittent invisibility becomes 1.5 seconds instead of 1.2 seconds when demanifested. It's just a really solid mind game addon for when sneaking around corners towards a survivor. Cheap and effective.
Clump of Hair (Yellow) - Bringing the visibility range of a demanifested Sadako from 24 meters to 18 meters. This is pretty nice, but I think it would be much better if it also affected her lullaby range as well. This would make it much better for sneaking close to survivors who know how to listen for her approaching and for using it on indoor maps when lines of sight aren't as important.
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VCR (Purple) - A mind game addon that fails at what it's supposed to do as seen by the OP's video. The TV auras need to all be hidden during the Projection or they need to keep the one active for the target TV for about two seconds at least. This is supposed to be helping her mask her approach, but currently Well Water does a much better job at it.
Telephone (Purple) - The hindered effect feels really weak for just a three second duration, and I don't think it applies to Projection as well. Bump up the range up one to 8 meters, boost duration to 5 seconds, let it work on Projection, and add in an exhaustion effect to have it be a solid "Going for the kill" kinda addon it's trying to be.
Tape Editing Deck (Purple) - This addon feels really bad when holding onto a tape no longer has a downside as it used to with Sadako 1.0 and 2.0. There's no passive condemn or stacks being gained when hit anymore. It's just Ring Drawing that directly punishes survivors for holding onto them and it's more towards their allies than the person themself. A six second aura is nice, but there's no pressure into getting them to do that beyond the usual pace. Passive condemn even at a weaker rate would make holding onto a tape even deadlier.
Distorted Photo (Purple) - It's not working with Projection which hurts the use of this addon. The screaming and aura is nice if it actually worked more consistently. It just feels as clunky as the Twins to use right now.
Remote Control (Red) - Amazing for getting some quick reads on anyone near an active TV and good for possible interceptions on anyone you see approaching a TV. It lives up to its status as an iridescent addon.
Iridescent Videotape (Red) - With its old effect made into her kit, the new effect is like a super version of her old Videotape Copy (Grey) addon except a lot worse with the downsides for Projection spamming. The lack of condemn stacks is what really guts this addon the most as it is the foundation of her entire kit's slowdown. The best you can do right now with it is use Ring Drawing (Green) which is kinda broken in its own right but not enough to put pressure on anyone turning TVs off and making them take 84 seconds to turn back on than the usual 70. This is an iridescent addon that effectively has the killer shoot themself in the foot. I think it needs to still spread condemn but at a weaker 0.5 stacks like how the old grey addon used to be. It will allow much more spamming and mobility for Sadako, but it will make counterplay against her even more effective as well.
That's just my thoughts on the addons for right now. Some good and some bad. Could use more to be good or at least decent so there's more build variety overall. Biggest issue right now is certainly the interaction times, but these would also be good for improving the killer's different playstyles.
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Rickety pinwheel and sea soaked cloth has much as I like the idea of TVs debuffing ppl, it punishes her for tping due to shutting off effects.
Distorted photo is ok, but you have to have some witness you within 16 meters.
mother mirror isn’t good to me personally because why use that when you can use newspaper since that’ll likely help you get your down faster.1 -
Thank you for your detailed thoughts my friend :)
Not sure why your post went through so many times. lol
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You pretty much show the problems perfectly. My main problem with her starts with her design. 2.0 and 3.0 both encourage survivors to always turn off TVs, where in 1.0 you shouldn‘t interact with TVs at least not that much. In 2.0 you at least didn‘t loose the condemned power (only teleport) and in 3.0 you lose your condemned and teleport power. In 1.0 you had both powers available almost always, shure she had long Tv cooldowns, but she had addons to manage that and her condemned was also not that bad (but it could have gotten some buffs like increasing it to 24m or making it based around the proximity 0-8m 2stacks; 8-16m 1stack; 16-24m 0,5 stacks). Now you basically play her only as M1 without power most of the time, because most survivors shut down all her TVs. On the other side she is a monster in stomping inexperienced survivors, who ignore her counterplay/don‘t know it, which in my opinion is a bad design. Her tp became bad in chase, because survivor see exactly where you teleport and run in the opposite direction. This leaves you even when survivors didn‘t turn off the TV with an ineffective teleport. Also when playing against her she lost all the horror by the TV auras (without them you didn‘t know from where she would come). I really enjoyed playing against and as 1.0.
Her current addons are in my opinion almost all weak. She had good ones, but they all got deleted or became outdated, this makes me sad.😔
Videotape copy got a good new effect
Newspaper was always good, but I don‘t understand why she has one addon that does make her flicker better in demanifest and in manifest like Newspaper and reikos watch could be one addon for both parts.
Mother‘s mirror does what it is supposed to do, I guess it‘s ok, when I would change something, I would hide the red stain in general while she flickers in manifest.
Cabin sign and well stone aren‘t really worth bringing since her TVs no longer have long cooldowns. If both would make TVs turn on faster in general, instead of only after your tp or after survivors turned them off, they could be a bit useful with a number buff (you don‘t really feel that they do anything). Or maybe they should get new effects.
Yoichis fishing net: I don‘t really feel whether it does anything. I would want the old effect back that it gives passive condemned faster if we get or 1.0 version back or that this addon makes that tapes give passive condemned, so that survivors don‘t hoard tapes.
Sea soaked cloth and rickety pinwheel are both outdated, it was okey as people didn‘t turn off TVs, but now you get nothing from them. First of all they need a bigger range. I would say make it the range of condemned and maybe merge them.
Reikos watch should get its old 50% back even tho the base flicker got buffed and like it said above I don‘t understand why we have an addon for demanifest flicker and manifest flicker, this should be one addon for both parts
Clumb of hair: I can‘t say whether it makes a difference/ does something impactful, but this is a cool unique addon, which could be good with a big number buff.
Well water is good
Bloody fingernails is her best addon, please don‘t nerf it
Mothers Clumb it‘s good, but I don‘t like it
VCR became useless, because of the TV auras!
Distorted photo is okey. I like that there is written you have to „witness a manifestation“ even tho this addon becomes worse by that. If it would get the telephone effect with 6% hindered it would be good.
Telephone: Move the effect to distorted photo or buff it significantly or new effect.
Tape editing deck is outdated and was only good with passive condemned (since 2.0 useless)
Remote control is good
Iri tape is not worth it being an iri. I like the idea, but this should be a grey meme addon, where you get more blood points. Just bring back old iri videotape, which turned 4 TVs back on by hitting a survivor. I know this would probably be too strong in this version, but if you go back to 1.0 please bring it back.
Ring drawing is terrible after the deletion of its old healing gives condemned effect. Either bring back healing a injured survivor gives commend or make it an iri addon and make that healing in general gives one stack. The OG ring drawing would be worthy an iri addon.
New addons ideas:
- phasing through survivors gives Sadako haste or makes them exposed or gives condemned. This would be a fun addon.
- shorter switching time between demanifest and manifest
- A global condemned addon for those, who liked Sadako 2.0
- removing the lullaby/making it map wide/reducing it
I wish we would get her OG mechanics back, I think this was the fairest/most fun version for both sides and she only needed the buffs and QOL changes from the reworks.
To archive that I would change some of the addons back (iri tape/ ring drawing/ reikos watch/yoichis fishing net) and some parts while keeping the other changes from the reworks:
- passive condemned through tapes (every 25s 1stack)
- Tv auras removed. I would only show survivors the one TV where they have deposit their tape. It‘s frustrating when they know where you are, before you even crawl out the TV
- Only one TV gives condemned. To buff condemned I would increase the range where you get condemned to 24m or make it based around the proximity 0-8m 2stacks; 8-16m 1 stack; 16-24m 0,5 stacks
- Remove that you can turn of TVs, while holding a tape by getting one stack
- 1,5-2s tape insertion speed, 1s is too short
Another problem is her lullaby, which makes her stealth very bad since you introduced the visual terror radius. Before this was introduced most didn‘t even noticed it, I didn‘t notice it either. The best way to deal with it (even tho it might be a bit unfair for people who can‘t hear) would be to remove it from the visuel heartbeat.
Post edited by jonifire on3 -
well said my friend, I would agree 💯
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- With the first example the only counter is to keep them injured that way you can reliably counter it. However, the perk used to do that (sloppy) just got nerfed for literally no reason which makes this absolutely infuriating lmao. 2.0's best feature was tape break on hit, without even considering the condemn stacking it was my favourite change purely because it added counterplay to this stupid interaction.
- To be fair you weren't pathing super efficient in this situation and if you did I think you actually get the hit. HOWEVER, I thoroughly believe this addon was made during development at a time when demanifesting didn't slow Sadako down because the slowdown you get while demanifesting is really what makes this addon truly worthless even if you get it to proc.
- The same as issue 1. For more detail on why this is a problem. Pushing condemn in 3.0 Sadako is very difficult (literally impossible vs decent survivors). Spending multiple minutes min maxing everything you possibly can for it to be removed by an uncounterable situation is beyond ridiculous when other killer will have multiple hook states in the time it takes you to build condemn. The only downside is you take a hit. Other killers grab survivors off interactions with their power, why can't Sadako?
- Honestly the Lullaby isn't the biggest issue. The issue is the Lullaby is directional and demanifesting is the loudest thing on the planet AND the undetectable does not last long enough to try and sneak up by demanifesting early. Killers like wraith have the ability to make their bell silent or map wide with addons, why wasn't this made an addon with iri tape rather than turning it into a joke of an addon? I shouldn't need to run perks like unforeseen to make my STEALTH KILLER stealthy…
- VCR actually used to be very good because it would give you some stealth by scaring survivors and giving them misinformation. Now with the aura's it is completely useless as you say. I honestly don't know how this can be fixed with TV aura. Just another situation where BHVR massively change her kit with 0 regards for addons (her rarest ones might I add).
- Tape editting deck IMO has always been pretty bad. But what they did to our iri tape is unacceptable. This was an addon that was the strongest in her deck since release so most of us spend millions of BP farming these addons. Then they made it useless in 3.0 so we not only have wasted millions of BP, but now we have a bunch of these lying around doing nothing. It's not even a healthy addon, it encourages you to use it to hard tunnel people of the hook by TP'ing between the hooked survivor and a different TV and either proxy camp them to death or catch out any teammate trying to unhook.
As I explained in my own post outlining how bad she is, Sadako right now is a joke. You only win if the survivors don't know what they are doing and even though I have won most of my matches as her since 3.0 drawing only 2 times, this isn't down to my skill. It's down to me working out which survivors don't know her power and getting them out early or when they all know it, tunnelling the weakest survivor out. This isn't fun, this isn't interactive, this isn't why I enjoy playing Sadako. No-one wants to play the power role where their power is entirely dictated by the other role. Likewise vs Sadako I have a near 100% escape rate and have literally never gotten over 4 stacks of condemn. The condemn lock which was meant to be a main mechanic of 3.0 is completely pointless since you can only lock in 3 stacks per hook and by the time you've gotten their condemn locked to any meaningful amount they are 2nd stage so you might aswell just hook them anyway and get your perks value like pop.
3.0 is so close to being great, but they just kept adding more and more and more counters to a killer who didn't need it because their base power already got nerfed. She was reworked in 1.0 because she was too weak and the counterplay to her power when used in the only viable way is too boring. 2.0 was reworked because OG Sadako's wanted more of the macro back and now we have more macro than ever while being weaker than ever.
I genuinely believe that Sadako in her current state is the weakest killer in the game, the only reason people think she is half passable is because they simply don't understand just how much power you have as a survivor vs her.
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I would also agree, thank you for your time and taking the time to view my thread my friend.
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I made such a long post that it was bugging the forum lol
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Ring Drawing is actually her strongest addon right now but not intentionally as it has the old and new effects combined since the start of the Sadako 3.0 PTB. It does still have the "get condemned stack from healing condemned survivors" effect on top of the new one where it spreads it out for hooking someone with a tape. As it currently stands, it's much more of an iri addon in value than the actual Iri Videotape which is kinda sad.
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It doesn‘t have both effects anymore. I think it was fine as it was bugged. Now it‘s just trash.
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You're right! Just did a custom game test with my friend to confirm this.
What patch fixed this? I didn't see it in the recent notes or anything.
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Likely a silent fix
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I don‘t know in which patch it was. I already used all my ring drawings. Then I decided to go into customs to test it out wether it‘s still worth buying and it didn‘t work anymore.
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Good showcase of some of the issues with current 3.0 Onryo. Especially how easy it is to drop tapes off in the killers face mid-chase and how bad her stealth is with the VTR. I love your suggestion of a map wide lullaby to help resolve this.
Only thing I would disagree with is Iri-tape and Tape Editing Deck being trash. Tape Editing Deck is on the weaker side but not useless. It has niche value for early condemn buildup. Iri-tape can be exploited by good survivors which can make it very weak due to their ability to see TV auras and rapidly disable your TVs leaving Onryo powerless for an extended period of time. However, when I use Iri-tape, I bring builds to counter this and aggressively defend my TVs as well as trying to keep their whole team injured. Essentially overload them with tasks to do like gens, heal, totems, and then their desire to touch tapes diminishes. Although against really good teams it will still be a struggle, but it can be a fun struggle.
Overall I agree with you and also would love to see a return of the 1.0 release Sadako but with the QoL buffs.
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”Overall I agree with you and also would love to see a return of the 1.0 release Sadako but with the QoL buffs.”
facts! I agree ☺️Thank you for your time my friend. :)
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