And until we fix this issue, we recommend that players with photosensitivity, or who have an epileptic condition or have had seizures of any kind consult their physician before playing.
Do you think any killers should be completely reworked?
I'm thinking Skull Merchant, Freddy and maybe The Pig. How about you?
Comments
-
Freddy probably deserves a good one.
We also vote Billy outs spite.
1 -
- Freddy
- Freddy
- Freddy
- Bubbi Boi - needs to have two chainsaws and should helicopter spin when using them.
- Myers- Scratched Mirror stays the same or they can make me happy and let Myers walk a little faster when it’s equipped. Or at least let him walk faster when not in chase and survivors can’t see him. He should be able to kill anyone at basekit but only when they’re on death hook and Tombstone be reworked into something new.
- Sadako. She needs a new team with a fresh outlook at what she can do. She’s underwhelming in everything she does. She just has nice visuals.
7 -
<3
6 -
- Facts!
- Facts!
- FACTS!
- Facts!
- Can't say because I don't really know much about him but if it means I can counter tombstone than great!
- Facts facts FACTS! God. Please. I appreciate them trying but what in the actual great balls of fire are they doing to this Character. Her Visuals and Audio sound effects though are 10 out of 10 stars!
5 -
I want Dwight's little propeller hat for Bubba, but with little chainsaws in place of the blades.
4 -
I've been playing Freddy the past 2 nights.
6 straight 4ks with No Way Out, Terminus, Remember Me, and Fire Up. …I haven't even gotten value out of my build yet, I'm just having a blast with his base kit! 😂
I think he needs to be nerfed, ngl
2 -
i wonder what go through survivors minds when they get cook by scissor hand fred. Like damn i just lost to the weakest killer in the game
9 -
While I'm mostly opposed to total reworks, Freddy definitely deserves a reversion to his on-launch design, maybe with his current teleport added on.
Otherwise, I think Spirit is the only character who is so poorly designed they need a rework on that scale. Her power is an accessibility issue, and without that, there's nothing to the power. That's a major issue.
I think if anyone else were to get a major rework, I'd want it to be Wraith, who is incredibly one note and uninteresting for both sides, Nemesis, who just isn't a good adaptation of the character, or Trickster, who lacks an identity beyond obnoxious Huntress. But I would moreso want them to be changed than have their powers scrapped.
3 -
Definitely Freddy. His previous rework was a huge mistake. I don’t even care if he is still weak, I just want to actually have fun as him again and not be a powerless M1 killer for most of the match.
2 -
Complete reworks from the ground up? Freddy and Skull Merchant.
2 -
Explain how Skull needs a rework
7 -
Imagine that loadout on someone that has a power endgame
That's another stupid part about sharp hands Joe, he loses his teleport1 -
average wraith game: dodge swf lobbies → break every pallet and make the map one big deadzone → setup a 3 gen and camp it → start playing the game of attrition
0 -
Freddy is the only one and only who needs full rework.
1 -
How or why?
How? I dunno, not a game dev.
Why? Because she's the most disliked killer by such a wide margin that her kill rate is bloated because of survivors giving up against her. Idk how that's going to be fixed without a rework.
10 -
A rework didn't fix it. There's no reason to believe a second would. Besides, she's mechanically fine these days—there could maybe be a little more reward for hacking drones but most of the issues people have with her stem from their lack of knowledge as to what she does, and their refusal to play against her to learn how to counter her power in the first place.
6 -
Freddy and Myers come to the forefront when it comes needing a rework and NEEDING a rework. Freddy's power feels awful in short and is just an Frankenstein of other powers. The king of nightmares deserves something so much better and so much more creative.
In terms of Myers, however, his power is outdated. Very outdated. Ghostface and other stealth killers already have much stronger and more interesting powers, especially when it comes to the stalking mechanic. Not to mention his broken add-ons which are completely unhealthy for the game.
2 -
Not working the first time isn't really an excuse to stop trying, Legion and Billy can attest to that. Regardless of how many arguments there are about whether or not Skul Merchant is fine power wise, we need to at least understand that poorly designed killers don't tend to get a bad rap after "good" reworks, so Skull Merchant is either an outlier, or there's something else going on.
And that's assuming she is fine. Her current power is extremely oppressive against new survivor, given her ability to apply so many status effects at once. She basically gets Undetectable whenever she wants, and in a much more expendable manner than other killers. Her power shuts down loops, can apply lasting debuffs, even get a cheeky hit, need I go on?
Now, I'm not gonna argue she's the best killer out there, or even that's she's a good killer in the first place, but I feel like it goes without saying that playing as her is significantly easier than playing against her, just by the way she's designed.
Do I know how to fix Skull Merchant? No, but I don't think throwing up our hands and saying "ah, it's fiiiiiiiine" is going to get us anywhere either. SM isn't suddenly going to become a liked or even tolerated killer until something changes, and that's a fact.
3 -
I firmly believe the hate for Skull Merchant is a result of something else going on. We've seen every aspect of her hated on since her inception, and while some complaints are or were valid—her original power was awful, yeah—many others are irrational. Skull Merchant is always met with people wanting her deleted and replaced entirely, which is obviously ignorant of how game development actually works. People said she was a lost Predator license, because she had a kind of similar weapon and then literally nothing else lined up.
People have been making things up and refusing to actually sincerely analyze the killer since her inception, and the hate people have for her makes her attractive to players who want to be annoying and toxic—Not her actual kit, just how people perceive the killer. People who don't like SM then use these players as faulty evidence something is wrong with the killer on a fundamental level—There isn't. People just refuse to try and engage with the killer's design and character with any fairness at all.
Pixel Bush's guide turned a lot of people around to her! He's gone over the nuances of her power, the interesting strategies she can employ, and some people have seen that and changed their minds! When people give her a fair chance they're pretty conducive—I mean, it's anecdotal, but I really like going against her myself! Another rework won't fix people's irrational behavior around the killer, it won't fix the problem, it's just going to tear a fun killer away from people that like her.
6 -
Oh I really hate reworks. First of because it may dont even help a character and just makes them bad. Freddy is an example that comes to mind but he is also the best example for someone that really needs a rework.
Another reason why I dislike reworks is that they often kill a character even if it works good and is fun in the end the specific playstyle of that character died in the process. Often times even character that are pretty mediocre have a fan base amongst the communitys and it always hurts to see them vanishing with a rework. I had this fear when they said they rework legion and to this day im thankfull it was only a light rework and where they didn't touch the concept of a character.
I had something likes this just recently in lol. They have reworked a chatacter i really like for a second time. First rework was like leguon a light rework where the character stay more or less the same. Now we have a full rework all abilities are different they gave him a grafik update. Now it's not the same character at all. All my hours learning that char are gone and something I loved to.play is lost
3 -
She didn't get reworked, she got changed.
So far as I can recall, nothing new was added.
1 -
Freddy and Skull Merchant need full reworks.
None of these new "reworks". They need new powers (or in Freddy's case, modified old powers.)
2 -
Yeah, sorry, they didn't replace her drones with a magical shotgun or whatever, that means it isn't a rework, my bad.
They changed literally every single thing about how her power works, from how her drones detect survivors, to what her drones do when they detect survivors, to how her drones activate after being placed and how they function when deactivated. Literally everything about her power except the base concept is different.
6 -
Nurse obviously.
0 -
Which is what needs to change.
Stationary AOE Status Effect machines is still absolutely terrible, both for the Killer and Survivor.
She needs a full rework to make her viable and fun to play as/against. She has virtually zero skill expression against her and little playing as her.
Also, yeah, not sure why you're so aggressive over that.
1 -
Skull Merchant is a total train wreck that should never have been released in the first place. She's already had 3 reworking and is nowhere near the problem she was before. Just a mess of random status effects chucked together now.
Saying that, I genuinely have no clue what you would do to her to make people stop throwing the game against her because its obvious a large number of the community have no intention of playing against her in any state. I think the devs will just not touch her again for years now, like with Freddy.
Similarly with Sadako, what do you do with her now? Rework after rework and I've played against her once since they nuked her months ago. She must the lowest played killer now?
0 -
Call it my anecdotal evidence, but I haven't seen literally anything positive regarding her aside Pixel's video, and I won't say that even helped in game, as I still can hardly get past third hook stage without a DC or hook suicide. I would examine the way I play for causing it, but it happens so often before or directly following first down that I don't really think it is anything but the killer I chose.
It doesn't really matter if a killer can be fun to play, if the matches they're involved in aren't. Skull Merchant in my experience can be a joy to face, since she has such a large bag of tricks to pull from, but I can hardly say the ends justify the means when Yui decided she didn't want to play anymore after getting hooked halfway through and now we aren't even allowed to have a bot to keep playing because I guess she didn't want the DC Penalty. Genuinely, I can count on two hands the amount of actual matches I've played with her, and it's not for lack of trying.
Now, how do we fix this? If a rework is off the table, and her current killrate is 10% past the norm, do we just…call it? Do the devs make a statement that says "SM is fine, just learn to vs her?" Is that really going to benefit the community in the long run?
I just don't see what the proposal is here. SM is problematic, and it doesn't matter if the hate from the community is warranted, because it's there, and it ruins most of the matches she's apart of. If a rework is off the table, what is the plan?
2 -
Well, she doesn't have an AoE—Her drones fire out two beams that survivors can avoid through LoS blockers, or even just crouching or standing still for a second when it passes over them. Pixel Bush has made a guide talking about how you can aim these beams precisely before they activate, timing it so that they do right as a survivor would go past them, for one example of skill expression. It's an important distinction, because just placing a permanent AoE would be bad—and she doesn't do that. She used to, sure, but she doesn't now. There are plenty of different ways that SM can express skill and strategy with her power, that guide Pixel Bush made is one hour long or longer.
Playing against her isn't unlike playing against killers like Trapper or Hag or even Cenobite, who ask you to be more proactive in disabling the killer's power. I, personally, find it incredibly interesting to go against her. Besides, she is still an M1 killer—even if she uses drones in chase, you have the option of taking an M1 hit to avoid taking lock-on stacks or something, and if she doesn't catch you out in the open when you get a claw trap she has to chase you for that down normally. It's interesting, in my opinion, predicting what overall strategies she wants to employ with her drones and working to counteract them.
If I come off as aggressive, it's only because it's tiring seeing such ignorant takes on SM as if "total, ground up rework" is ever a good idea just because a lot of people don't care to learn the matchup.
3 -
Freddy.
Why is Pig even mentioned???
🔥🐽🔥
2 -
"Do the devs make a statement that says "SM is fine, just learn to vs her?" Is that really going to benefit the community in the long run?"
I mean, they could. DbD could use better tutorials that teach you the details of killers' powers, games like Guilty Gear have great tutorials that specifically go into some particularly oppressive tools a character might have and guides you to counter those tools and gameplans. Even if they don't make a tutorial for it, they shouldn't just bend and rip the character apart because people whine. If she stays how she is and they make their intention to preserve her core design clear, it's likely that people will understand they need to learn what they're doing.
I mean, ideally—I admit DbD players are big fans of tantrums. But I don't think ruining a killer some people very strongly like for her unique gameplay is justified because a lot of people throw their hands up every match. If a tutorial and clarified intent doesn't help, then maybe they should make DC penalties worse or remove the ability to use self unhook to kill oneself. I don't know. I just think it's much worse to homogenize the roster than to preserve a design that maybe not everyone likes.
3 -
Not sure.
Feel like Pig is a underrated Killer at the moment and seems like a faithful adaptation.
1 -
The recent buffs didn't do much (guess we pig mains where correct... Maybe they will listen one day…)
She's underwhelming but by no means deserves a rework.
Her power is unique and faithful, as you said.
No changes needed. Especially no "buffs".
2 -
Now I suppose it's my turn to be aggressive.
Place drone at loop, Survivor must leave loop and take a hit or die. That's horrific gameplay and that's what 99% of SM's do because it's easy and effective. That's not even mentioning the gens or how toxic seemingly every SM, besides Forum SM's, are.
I don't really care what PB says. He's been a great apologist for years on Twins, and I enjoy his lore videos, but he's flat-out causing more harm with this one, I think.
The only way forward, if the SM club continues to deny she's an issue and decry any attempts to rework her, is to nerf her and let her rot until people's hate dies off. If she mimics Twins patterns, it'll be around 3-4 years before people start to change their opinions.
0 -
Sure, such a playstyle does exist, such a strategy probably could use something of a nerf. But if we're going to base literally all of our opinions on a killer on the absolute worst they have to offer, then we should really also be preventing Wesker from being allowed to see infected survivors, to curb his tunneling, and we should make it so Spirit is visible while phasing to circumvent her accessibility issues, and we should probably also make it so cages of torment don't take a hook state to make Pyramid Head less of an effective tunneler.
If your argument is that she has some problems, yeah, I'd agree, I don't think she's perfect, she probably needs a little fine tuning, but she's far from the worst a game with characters like Spirit, Trickster, or Chucky has to offer. Having problems doesn't mean a killer needs to be scrapped entirely. If it did, we wouldn't have a game to talk about.
3 -
Wesker's Infection should pause after unhook until a Survivor does a conspicuous action.
No way to fix Spirit, unfortunately.
PH's cages should be adjusted.
She's still the worst Killer on the roster, evidently most people feel the same, all the rework did is move her closer to Knight
0 -
Freddy needs a rework really much.
Myers needs a nice rework as well.
Trapper needs buffs.
Sadako needs buffs.
Pyramid head needs a rework of his addons and the Torment mechanic.
1 -
Its no use trust me he has no intention of ever changing his mind on SM and he just hates her to hate her atp.
1 -
Weakest killer in the game with no real chase power against survivors above 200 hours I fear
0 -
As a 2k hour Pig main, I heavily disagree.
2 -
Some already said it : Myers.
His power isn't great, but he have busted addon for some reason. I don't really understand how an insta kill addon can remain so long in the game.
I wouldn't mind if the addon granted insta kill only on deathhook survivor (and would grant the kill also when they are downed, so people can't abuse lockers to avoid it). That with a basekit rework.
0 -
I would say in order :
Twins (In progress but even then not sure they will be anything else than 1st seeing … yes …)
Myers (Is there a killer that can be bad at early game and at endgame ? Oh yeah he exists, and does he have addons that make it so his kill rate is average ? YES THERE IS !)
Freddy (PLS someone make him OK and give me a reason to want to play him)
Trapper (… no comment, just a secondary power ? PLS)
Legion (Boring, make it interactive on the surv POV somehow)
And all of the others still need tweeking (The easiest ones to find for me/just ordered in killer strengh for me) :
Nurse (OP (remove her blinks when she is stunned, i swear it would make nearly no difference apart that she has counterplay and even then it's not even that bad …) I am a nurse main and i win way too much games with nothing but agi and monitor)
Wesker (infection = tunneling)
chucky (remove scamper out of slice and dice, it's just dumb and rebuff it as it was in the PTB (0.6 sec i think))
Huntress (Give me something else than 3% and 2% haste, buff it or do smth, rn it's worthless)
SM (make ppl not be traumatised somehow … very hard but everybody hates on her still even tho she isn't that bad anymore)
PPHead (give me other addons than just range)
Nemesis (A nitpick from me but remove zombies and make marvin blood basekit (new marvin blood = basekit rn) and or / addon pass)
dredge (cooldown buffs he feels really weak against good pallet campers)
I do not agree cause pig has a threat of stealth and some slowdown in her traps, her early game is not as bad as myers's nor is her late game comparable to myers's cauz at least she can have stealth …
And even though myers one shots has a tier -2 coup and vaults windows quicker in tier 3 and has to charge that, not so strong power, if you take off any of the 2 OP addons he has, he is barely better than trapper, and even then it isn't that crazy since he has to stalk you for 12 h anyway …
Pig has a basic slowdown, can now delete any counterplay on small loops and has mid to Ok addons…
I do not agree with the weakest killer in the game, and stealth is good against anything but 4 man swf …
Try to get chased for 5 mins on ormond by a good pig and you will die in 6 seconds and against a trapper / myers you will do 5 min if you are good …
0 -
I'm taking everything from another thread to explain how I use Skull Merchant.
When I play SM and I want to be as ruthless as possible with this "play style"
Discordance (so they cannot stack a gen in my 3 gen without me knowing)
Pain Res (its faster to proc that POP 9/10 times so if you ever have a scourge hook nearby it will allow you to keep your 3 gen easier than pop)
Surge (because you are downing people generally near gens)
Deadlock (In reality most of the time you get 3-4 gens that can be played as a 3 gen and 2 not being able to pop in quick succession with pain res lets me very rarely not be able to force a 3 gen without needing to just rotate around 3 gens at the start of the map when 5 need to be completed)
I refer to the build as the fun police skull merchant.
This terrible diagram explaining how 3 gen on SM circles are drones and red squares are gens as long as you zone them northward to a map edge you will be given a hit or likely a tag into a down then you proxy camp a hood in your 3 gen if you are given a 4 gen or a scourge hook in a 3/4 gen you are set to make the game misery until the gen blockers had enough of your BS.
It is pure misery to play against but ive found its the best way to utilise her power you do not have to strictly adhere to everything but generally the best way to play her is PURE MISERY.The 10 teams I won in a row against a few days ago 3 genning every game seeing the dbd community slowly coming to the conclusion SM is not that bad
Is Skull Merchant the worst killer to play against no
Is the bottom 3 YES YES YES YES YES
0 -
I don't think u quite get the point, the drones need removed and make her power something interesting
1 -
I want Sharp Hand Joe to be reworked into Freddy Krueger.
2 -
At least tag me :p
3 -
Actual rework, not just buffs or tweaks? Freddy and SM
Lots of killers with issues but most can be fixed through tweaks, buffs or QoL.
1 -
Freddy need to be reworked. His ability at now very powerless
1 -
Can we rework some of these killer mains? That would fix a lot of the killer roster lol.
Otherwise definitely Freddy. Most definitely Freddy.And SM.
0 -
Skull Merchant should be reworked into an apology and mass refund.
5 -
Freddie deservers a rework more so then the others at this point
1
