This game needs better tutorials for new players and it should force them to initially do it.
On console alone since the new event started from a Solo queue perspective, it seems fellow survivor teammates are either awful in both game modes (can't survive more than 20s in a chase), lead the killer to you and use you as bait to escape the killer, don't understand the meaning of body blocking and instead just sandbag you, huddle up together at one point in the game and make it easy work for the killer and don't know how to unhook.
DBD is not in it's infancy anymore, there should be better basic tutorials on both sides to initiate new players into the game.
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The tutorials should be better for sure, but I don't think people should be forced to do them, however rewarding them would be nice… Like some bp or shards or something like that… maybe even a steam achievement? Or a bit of lore… Some motivation.
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You do get rewarded for doing tutorials. Like 100k/50k for each tutorial. If you complete them all, you unlock The Wraith and David King (yes, they are locked by default since may 2021)
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I know, but I meant the new ones that would come out, as we agreed that the existing ones are not enough…
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There's already a system in place that forces you to do the basic ones, you already are rewarded for doing it and yes you should be forced to do the bear minimum to learn to play the game as most people skip it and never look back which is very unhealthy for the game.
That's not asking for much at all.
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bHVR already did a good tutorial in their first videos on their channel
I don't think the tutorials are as good as these, and frankly doing tutorials are boring.
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If those tutorials were up to date that would be debatable, but considering how little they teach you and how many things are still unclear after I don't really think they serve the purpose of "bare minimum" and I generally think forcing people to do that stuff is not the way to go.
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I think it would be better in the long run to create a solid tutorial, web page, etc. to explain the use of the toolbox, rather than taking the foolish approach of buffing its effectiveness to popularize its use to survivor beginners. Those who don't see it won't see it anyway and will skip the tutorials, but those who do should learn from their mistakes in the game.
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It would be better showing videos on how players dodge and commit to a chase or bail out. Survivors have to have good chase because hiding lets be honest slows the game down hard so nothing gets done.
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Then maybe they should either link certain videos/YouTube channels, or just pay their fogwhisperers to do a proper guide series...
At the end of the day something needs to be done to make it easier for people to start playing the game...
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mate, that's the entire point I made with the post…
New players NEED to understand the core mechanics, there is no point revamping a tutorial if no one does it.
This game is centred around team mechanics, one survivor lacking because of basic knowledge and it throws the entire game in half the cases.
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And you think people who would not do the tutorial otherwise will pay attention when they are forced to do it?
It should exist, but you should not be forced to do it, but instead rewarded.
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Tutorials do already reward you for doing them so that's obviously expected and doesn't need to be in this discussion.
From what I've experienced these past 30+ games alone in Solo queue since the new event started, tutorials NEED to be enforced because survivors lack basic understandings of fundamentals expected from players that's been gained throughout the years.
IDK if you're on PC or not but on Console I've never raged so hard in my life than I have in these past 30+ games and I don't even mind carrying noobs, EVER. Enough is enough.
Mandatory tutorials make the core community better because they have to learn.
You're against players getting better?
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First of all I am against forcing players to do lengthy things before enabling them to play the game... A tutorial that big to cover all the stuff, probably forcing them to do it for both sides might take enough time so they cannot even play a normal match before the time window to refund the game is up.
Based on your statement that players currently don't do the tutorial, because they are so bad you cannot expect them otherwise kind of means the current rewards are not enough to motivate them... Which is why I started off by saying maybe give them something more.
It also seemed to me that mmr was turned off in the modifier... At least when playing killer I had that feeling.
You still did not explain why you think making it mandatory would lead people to do them in a way they would learn something while doing it? That is not a give consequence... Players don't have to learn or understand what they are doing while going through a mandatory tutorial, they only do the current task and probably do something else while the game explains them why they did that... Expecting players to actually pay attention to the tutorial because they are forced to do it is like expecting people in lectures to actually pay attention just because they need to be there... And if you have been to university you know that people will literally do everything but listen to the lecture...
I'm not against players getting better, but that is not what the tutorial is for, it is supposed to help them get the basics of the game and from that point onwards to be able to learn how to get better. And making tutorials mandatory will neither help them get better nor have a reasonable effect on the amount of information they gain, because they simply would not pay much attention to it.. The only people who would gain something are those who would do the tutorial anyway, no matter if it was mandatory or not... So you basically gain nothing by making it mandatory.
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First of all I am against forcing players to do lengthy things before enabling them to play the game... A tutorial that big to cover all the stuff, probably forcing them to do it for both sides might take enough time so they cannot even play a normal match before the time window to refund the game is up.This is a HUGE reach, currently survivor tutorials take around 5 minutes. Free trials usually last any where between 1 hour - 7 days and DBD has multiple free weekends.
If survivors want to play killer they should be forced to do the mandatory killer tutorials and vice versa.
You still did not explain why you think making it mandatory would lead people to do them in a way they would learn something while doing it?ANYTHING is better than what is in place currently. Your suggestion of not making it mandatory changes absolutely nothing after the change. Giving better rewards for the tutorial does not force someone to magically want to start concentrating on it better either. At least with my suggestion they've done the tutorial so they have somewhat of an idea rather than 0 knowledge at all.
And if you have been to university you know that people will literally do everything but listen to the lecture...I have, and that statement is false, maybe in your University nobody paid attention but in my reputable one they did.
I'm not against players getting betterThat's exactly what you're saying. You're assuming players don't pay attention to tutorials just like you assumed nobody pays attention in University lectures, in the exact same way you're assuming no one would pay attention to a new game they picked up, especially since it's a new game so their attention span usually is at the peak.
And making tutorials mandatory will neither help them get better nor have a reasonable effect on the amount of information they gain, because they simply would not pay much attention to it..Just because you don't pay attention doesn't mean others won't.
I am suggesting new tutorials to make the base player better and by forcing it to be mandatory if they want to play on that side and yes rewards would be reflective just like they currently are, which WILL make the player base better and no it will not affect the free trial as much as you're assuming.
You are suggesting to keep the game the same but make the rewards better with the new tutorials, which makes 0 sense because in the game currently your proposed method is already showcased and clearly it's not effective enough.
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The refund on steam is accessible with a playtime of less than 2 h as far as I am aware. Also the tutorials for both sides involve playing a game with or against bots, which already makes it a bit more than just 5 min.
If people don't want to learn the game then they won't learn the game... Forcing them to do anything changes nothing... I really don't understand why you find this so hard to understand...
Well mine is excellent as well and people still made waffles in the back row... I'm not saying that nobody did, but a big part of people will just sit through the time, get the paper that says they were there and then leave... It is what it is, people that don't want to learn something will not do it.
It is not what I am saying, and it won't magically become what I said just because you insist on it. If peoples attention span is high and they want to learn the game, they will do so... Tutorials are there for them in case they think they are helpful, otherwise they will use other sources they think would help them. Also I am not assuming people don't pay attention in lectures ^^ The guy making waffles was literally there... It was fairly obvious that he was doing anything but listening, especially since he had headphones on... Once again, the people that want to learn will do so in the way they seem fit, so making better tutorials makes them more attractive for those players, bloodpoints and other rewards make them more attractive for those type of players. Making it mandatory will not suddenly get people to learn something they apparently don't want to learn (in that specific way).
Well that's a silly assumption to get personal here is it? ^^ Who says I don't pay attention?
If the tutorials are better designed and more helpful maybe it will help? Especially considering the current tutorials are so bad I have no clue what you expect people to learn from them? You think people don't play the tutorial for some reason, but why? Because last time I did them they were horrible and taught you basically nothing of relevance? So how do you assume they are bad because they didn't do them? Maybe they did do the tutorials, but they are still not decent at the game because the tutorials just suck.
I'm not suggesting to keep the game the same... I said they should make better tutorials, more of them and reward players for doing them. This is not the same as it is currently, that would be a big change. They should also somewhat up the rewards considering the mass of stuff that would be in there... For example quick guides for each killer would eat up so much time and people should get a decent reward for it.
However I stay with the point that mandatory tutorials are not the way... People that don't want to learn through them won't and it is just not a good idea to force people to do stuff they don't want to... Especially in this case where it effects nobody but them and their progress in getting better.
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If tutorials are not sufficient enough how will they ever learn the game up to todays standard?So you're equating the people that made waffles in the back row to the entire world now when it comes to Universities? Make that make sense.
Also I am not assuming people don't pay attention in lectures ^^That is exactly what you did though:
Expecting players to actually pay attention to the tutorial because they are forced to do it is like expecting people in lectures to actually pay attention just because they need to be there... And if you have been to university you know that people will literally do everything but listen to the lecture...My counter argument is never personal, it's objective, usually given with facts witnessed by myself and/or others. And I never said you don't pay attention mate.
The points you are making about BHVR having bad tutorials are one of the same justifications for me making this OP. They need revamping to fit todays standard for the game.
I do agree with you that due to the new structure of prestige's, the rewards do need to increase for the tutorials to reflect them, 50k is far too little, even though the knowledge is the real reward for a tutorial, they should all collectively give the player 1m+ BP.
Especially in this case where it effects nobody but them and their progress in getting better.
I would have to disagree with you on this point because it affected me in 30 separate games minimum. Thus reinforcing why I want tutorials to be mandatory.The game is not enjoyable to play SoloQ in it's current state anymore. Might be time to delete it once again since XDefiant is releasing later today.
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I said that there will be some people that won't do what they don't want to do, it was really simple and you start to make me think that you don't want to understand what I am saying.
The majority will probably listen, but there will always be some special specimens that just do anything else they can come up with, like making waffles... The rate of which people do other stuff increases when all they need to do to pass is to physically be there, and that is quite similar to the tutorial, you can't play too bad to not pass it, so there is not really an incentive to do well or learn something, other than you yourself wanting to do so... Therefore making it mandatory will not make people want to learn something, either they want to do so anyway or they won't...
You quite literally said "Just because you don't pay attention does not mean others won't"... That's pretty much it.
Well it does not really matter if your teammates affect you, because you don't have a right to have a good teammate... Playing bad is not reportable so if they don't want to get good that is fully in their right to do so. It sucks to have bad teammates, but that is nothing you can blame on anyone but matchmaking, for all you know those guys tried their best.
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Explain to me where me suggesting a better tutorial with better incentives for better teammates for better quality of gameplay, service and better enjoyment in general affects you in any way?
You're fighting a point so damn hard like it affects you when you already play the game, if you're fine with the game how it is then this change does nothing but make the game better.
The only conclusion is you main killer and refuse to get better yourself.
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From the beginning on I was never against better tutorials, the only thing I ever complained about was making them mandatory, I don't understand how you can still not understand that, after telling you 50 times. I am against it because it is mandatory, and mandatory tutorials are just terrible.
I don't like mandatory tutorials, which is why I am bringing forth arguments against it, I think they are bad design and you should not force people to do them. For some reason for you it is only black and white there are no shades, I'm either in favor of a mandatory tutorial or against any changes that would make them better, that just makes no sense.
The only conclusion is that I don't like mandatory tutorials, as I have stated 50 times, which you apparently conveniently did not read… Also that argument of yours does not make sense on any level, because a mandatory tutorial would affect both sides, so no matter which side I would main the other side would still improve through those tutorials, so how does it make any sense? If a basic tutorial is enough to outclass me on killer I would need to be really terrible at the game, and unless you want to assume that as well I don't really know what you are trying to say other than you're getting frustrated you are apparently losing the argument and therefore attacking me personally (or frame me) as a killer main that is too bad at the game to keep up with players that only did a tutorial to the game…
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I haven't been on the forums since the 21st so forgive me for forgetting something you've typed to me almost a week ago.
So because you don't like mandatory tutorials you think it's suddenly unhealthy for the game if it was pushed out as an update? Make that make sense.
If mandatory tutorials are a bad design then prove it, give me statistics which show it's bad for design and affected the game in a negative light, not once but on multiple instances, else your stance is pure speculation.
Forcing someone to do a tutorial consisting of 360ing and body blocking in a quick 2 minute tutorial won't be the end of the world for someone now would it.
Also that argument of yours does not make sense on any level, because a mandatory tutorial would affect both sidesIt makes complete sense, you just don't understand the statement. Most killers are good from the many hours I've played this game and witnessed, most killers for me are usually prestige 25+ as well, today being mostly 50+ from the 10 matches i've played so far, but the matchmaking after the update reminds me of when survivors first started to get tunnelled heavily, people unhooking during chases, not lasting more than 20 seconds in a chase and more. I should not need to party up with friends to enjoy DBD.
other than you're getting frustrated you are apparently losing the argument and therefore attacking me personally (or frame me) as a killer main that is too bad at the game to keep up with players that only did a tutorial to the game…I don't take text personally, no ones "losing" an argument at all either. I am objectively trying to identify why it is you're so heavily against forcing players to do tutorials, your above points have just been opinions with no facts to back them up, like your counter argument about someone making waffles in the back of a class somehow conveyed the entire world doesn't listen to lectures, but then later retracting that same statement.
This is a debacle and not an argument btw, you seem to be taking my comments personally, reading text related to DBD should not hurt your feelings at all.
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I explained why I don't think they are healthy, aside from the obvious point that people mostly don't like mandatory tutorials. Also I don't like the general concept of being forced to do something in a game, games provide freedom for players to do what they want, in the rules of the game, but being forced to sit through tutorials just does not fit that concept.
We're kind of both speculating here, because you did not give data on how mandatory tutorials provide benefits for the skill level of the player base…
It is not about the way it would be shaped, I am against mandatory tutorials in general, this is a thing of principle.
That makes no sense… How do you just assume that killers all know how to play the game but survivors don't… That statement is free of any logical basis :D:D
It is fairly easy, my stance is that you should not be forced to do something if you don't want to do that, so if I don't want to do a tutorial I should not be forced to do that. That is basically a general principle of personal freedom. It is not that hard to understand I guess.
The waffles argument was more about stating that there are at least some people that won't do what you want them to, because you cannot force people to learn, you might able to force them into doing something to finish the tutorial, but that does not mean it will make them better or provide any advantage.
No, sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me ^^
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