WIndows Of Opportunity Needs The Borrowed Time Treatment
Hi there!
I'm a survivor main who has played the game since about 2018 and is now starting to play some killer (Skull Merchant and Artist). I got to rank 1 as a survivor before SBMM and regularly played both solo and duos (very rarely 3-4 person SWF) before taking a long break from the game. Even after taking a break, my bf and I both still kept up with the metas and DBD happenings, discussing things somewhat frequently. He plays both killer and survivor regularly, even getting to rank 1 on both (before SBMM). Safe to say, we're fairly competitive with how we play and understand the game as experienced players, we just don't know a lot of the newer maps.
Since returning to the game, we've noticed how necessary WoO feels, especially without a full SWF. There are so many more maps in the game and so many more anti-loop killers. The difference between a chase with and without WoO is staggering—with the perk you can avoid dead spots and position yourself much better to ensure a longer, more exciting chase, but without it, you have to hope your teammates didn't use the pallet(s) on a specific tile and do the best you can with the little you can see.
It also doesn't necessarily make mind games or loops more difficult for the killer, as the loop itself remains the same. A killer that can end loops will still be a killer that can end loops regardless of if WoO is run. It only makes it easier to start loops and chain loops, once again, taking elements of RNG out and making skill more important.
I don't think WoO is similar to perks like Quick and Quiet or Botany Knowledge, which give you a slight advantage in specific scenarios. It instead acts like a bandaid to cover the issue of chases being very RNG heavy (when skill levels are even) and solo queue players getting very little info compared to SWF. Killer Shack, for example, is incredibly fun to run (imo as survivor and killer) because the duration the chase lasts is entirely dependent on skill rather than simply guessing if a pallet is nearby. There is also a massive variety of mind games that can be played since both survivor and killer are equally aware of the area. Loops on random spots around the map, however, is much less fun because even if you successfully loop one spot and eventually drop the pallet, you cannot guarantee your skill will extend the chase.
So, I think WoO needs the BT treatment. A similar, but potentially slightly weaker version of it being basekit would be much healthier for the game and allow more variety in perk builds, especially since it has a staggering 28% usage rate.
Here are some of my ideas:
Option 1: Make it so the two closest pallets and the two closest windows within 32 meters are always highlighted (maximum of 4 highlighted spots total). This allows for better gen positioning outside of chase and allows loops to be chained without adding too much basekit screen clutter or utility. This is by far my favorite option since WoO usually has too much screen clutter and unnecessary info anyways. I also think less obvious auras for it would be nice, such as them being red instead of bright yellow, or even being more transparent.
Option 2: Make WoO and Zanshin Tactics basekit for both sides, but only work during chases. That way both sides have the same information during chases but it still means that map knowledge is required for good positioning.
Option 3: Give recognizable loop tiles some sort of visible indicator for if a pallet is there. For example, there could be dimly lit lanterns surrounding a jungle gym and if the pallet has been dropped and/or destroyed, those lanterns are off. That way survivors still need to be paying attention, but they won't run into a spot expecting a pallet just to not have one because someone already dropped it. This won't help with non-generic tiles, so it's by far the weakest option, but it's not horrible.
While most perks get utilization due to their undeniable strength, there are still many that get used purely for closing the gap between SWF and solo, or for more informed plays, and WoO is definitely one of those perks. It doesn't make the game toxic or horribly unsided, it simply takes out some of the guesswork and emphasizes skill on both sides instead.
Comments
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Yes, make yet another powerful perk basekit. Why not.
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I don't see the need to make it basekit, but bHVR should move it into the general perk group and give Kate a new perk.
I see it as a general big mistake by bHVR to make super good perks for people who are beginners and then making them pay for them, people end up getting those perks when they don't need them.
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2024 and people are still mad of WoO.
Amazing.
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Not mad, just noting the stats and discussing how to balance perk usage rates better
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I mean, a lot of "powerful" perks are only "powerful" because they're bandaids to actual issues in the game. Ruin was a bandaid to toolboxes and gen progression perks being too strong. Once those got fixed and ruin was changed to not be a bandaid, it dropped in usage. Or BT which was a powerful perk because it was a bandaid to the issue of camping/preventing unhooks. Then a weaker version of the strong perk was made basekit and it reduced camping significantly. Although camping is still an issue, killers completely preventing survivors from being unhooked isn't as much (unless the killer/survivor is really bad).
WoO is a bandaid to the very unfun part of getting caught in a chase and realizing afterwards that your teammates dropped the pallet in an area previously. There's a very limited "git gud" aspect to that as a lot of times you won't even be able to see if it's been dropped until you're already there. It takes the skill out and replaces it with freebies for the killer because the survivors literally can't communicate.
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I still think a weak basekit version would be good, especially for solo queue, but I 100% think that beginner perks should be general perks. I think if that were the case though, the usage rate would be even higher, further demonstrating some sort of issue that it "bandaids" with the basic gameplay loop.
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It's not a "band aid". Swfs don't call out every pallet they use or point out where to chain loops together. Windows does that for you, infallibly. The idea of it being a beginner perk is also outdated, it's good on everyone. You'll see your favorite stream man using it.
Dead by daylight is a game with very little micro skill and a lot of macro skill. A big part of the macro skill is learning tiles and knowing what to do at what times. The easier you make that stuff the less engaging the game becomes because you're no longer rewarded for that knowledge. If the game is holding your hand and gently guiding you through loops, why would you have to learn anything? Glowing lights on loops. Utterly inelegant.
Also while I've got you: zanshin tactics does the same thing as Windows, but they are not equivalent perks. Why do you think one sits at the same usage rate as unrelenting and the other is like 33%? Survivors lead chase. They decide where to go. Killers just follow. They know what tiles have resources and which do not because they got rid of those resources. It's irrelevant 99.5% of the time. The game is asymmetrical.
You want to lower the skill cap of an already simple game and I cannot see a reason for it. Personally I don't mind Windows; it's the only thing giving blindness value. But it doesn't need to be yet another basekit perk.
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It also doesn't necessarily make mind games or loops more difficult for the killer, as the loop itself remains the same.
That's not really true. WoO just makes your chases longer, because you can never guess wrong about pallet/window position.
It's funny how people try to hide WoO behind noobs and soloQ, while even SWF use it. SWF usually makes call outs only for god pallets, or none at all.
Best thing about WoO is ignoring most of RNG map generating, you can never be surprised by it.
I don't think WoO should get nerfed, but BHVR should definetly not use "high pick rate" as a reason for any nerfs as long this perk is around. Well, they failed at this many times.It definetly doesn't need to be basekit.
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Okay then make Pain res basekit as well. Because WoO is an insanely powerful perk that completely removes deadzones and removes having to learn the map. If anything it needs to be nerfed and have a CD after throwing a pallet or vaulting a window so you can't just run to the glowing item every time. It removes having to actually pay attention to the map and allows you to put your full attention on the Killer instead of having to balance looking for where to run and seeing what the killer is doing, making chases substantially easier.
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SWF don't call it pallet locations, they call out looping locations like 1 clock, 6 clock, 9 clock, and so on. it is implied that where ever your looping, your using up the resources of that area.
Something does need to be done about WoO. I think it both need nerf and something need to be add base-kit for survivor to know what pallets have been used. I proposing something like a red aura is shown when a pallet is dropped.
It only makes it easier to start loops and chain loops, once again, taking elements of RNG out and making skill more important.
The elements of RNG in original DBD was part of balance of looping. there is no chance that BVHR will ever add aura's as a regular mechanic for survivor within the chase. part of the feel of dbd is suppose to be that your a survivor trying to scavenge resources and piece together a puzzle in the chase. WoO really deletes chase immersion in dbd. The skill to become proficient at looping drastically goes down with Windows. that is why i do not think it is healthy perk but at same time, it is a perk that bridges some soloq weaknesses creating a necessary evil with exist.
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they call out looping locations like 1 clock, 6 clock, 9 clock, and so on
Most SWF are not capable / can't be bothered to use clock call out system. I have played with only few people, where we actually used this.
But anyone can just say "I dropped shack". You can easily make call out like that. But that's still not majority, most players simply don't care and talk about completely unrelated things. Not all SWF are competitive.I proposing something like a red aura is shown when a pallet is dropped
I think impact of this is way bigger than you expect. It's not about just information what pallet was dropped, mainly it won't help you at all, because it's very difficult to guess what loop was it unless you have direct LoS.
But it is going to make protection hits way easier for survivors. Not even WoO is doing this, so I have no idea how you connected this to basekit feature, when it has nothing to do with WoO.
This change help every survivor in DBD, not just soloQ. I really don't think we need any feature like this in current situation. I can get behind features to help soloQ, that would affect SWF very little, or none. This is definetly not one of those. This is major buff to all survivors.
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This change help every survivor in DBD, not just soloQ. I really don't think we need any feature like this in current situation. I can get behind features to help soloQ, that would affect SWF very little, or none. This is definetly not one of those. This is major buff to all survivors.
the majority of survivors are using window of opportunity. i believe the official statistic report that 21%(?) of survivors use window of opportunity. This isn't really a buff if everyone already using the perk.
The buff is saving an extra perk slot so you don't need to use WoO's in soloq.
It is same thing if survivor could see aura's in like 24 meter radius so they can locate other teammates easily in chase to loop more efficiently or find healing. that would save a perk slot on bond. so that is 2 extra free perk slots now can be used on really strong like decisive strike+adrenaline. So those perk would likely be top pick-rate which is what most SWF uses anyway. so now soloq and swf are playing same game.
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report that 21%(?) of survivors
This isn't really a buff if everyone already using the perk.
Since when is 21% is considered everyone? That's some very flawed math. 100% != 21%
This isn't really a buff if everyone already using the perk.
Sooo just because players already use something, it is not considered buff when it becomes basekit? That doesn't make any sense.
When BT become basekit, it was major buff simply because it opened slot to any other perk. Fact that everyone was using it, has nothing to do with impact of that change.The buff is saving an extra perk slot so you don't need to use WoO's in soloq.
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So it is not buff to players who use it, when they gain extra perk slot? Whaaaat
It is same thing if survivor could see aura's in like 24 meter radius so they can locate other teammates easily in chase to loop more efficiently or find healing.
That's also major buff that would affect everyone. That's not just soloQ feature.
So those perk would likely be top pick-rate which is what most SWF uses anyway. so now soloq and swf are playing same game.
No, you just buffed the game for everyone. SWF are still better by a lot and SWF are going to have way easier time with those changes.
There is no way WoO should ever in any form become basekit. It has nothing to do with soloQ fixing, it just makes game easier for any survivor.
Only valid idea in regards of Bond I have seen is it would affect only surivvors you are not in SWF. So 3 SWF (see 1 survivor), 1 soloQ (see 3 survivors). That would still be a huge buff for survivors except full SWF.5 -
WoO is not nearly as required as old bt was. I see no reason the perks needs to be remotely made basekit
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I don't think you understand how big 21% is. I do not remember what pain res % was, I want to say it was 25%. Recently pain res got nerfed to 20% total regression as this perk was present in 60% of killer load out. I am trying find dev post but just take my word for the post.
that is massive. Just by looking at the numbers, i'd say 21% is probably 40-50% of survivor perk load outs. that means that on average, every dbd killer match you play, there is at least 2 window of opportunity per match.
It is been many years since dbd has posted stats on 2, 3, 4 man swf but 3 and 4 man swf are extreme minor minority of that play dbd. the vast majority of player playing dbd are soloq and duo. It was something like 65% soloq, 20% duo, 9% trio and like 5% 4 man.
When BT become basekit, it was major buff simply because it opened slot to any other perk.
Borrow time is a raw advantage perk. Are you surprised that soloq and SWF would benefit equally from this change? WoO is info perk.
That's also major buff that would affect everyone. That's not just soloQ feature.
inevitably, the UI could be argued to help SWF as well as Soloq but like the stats show, soloq escape rate is 39% while 4 man SWF at high MMR escape rate is 48%. I don't think it is equally as important for 4 man SWF. Part of reason why the % number is high is because 4 man SWF is not having to run bond or WoO and is instead running perks like Decisive strike and Adrenaline, High impact raw advantage perks to increase their survival escape rate. This also goes into FTP+Buckle up or Background player. All these perk are not really that popular in soloq because soloq just doesn't have perk slots to use it. Simple as that.]
Only valid idea in regards of Bond I have seen is it would affect only surivvors you are not in SWF. So 3 SWF (see 1 survivor), 1 soloQ (see 3 survivors). That would still be a huge buff for survivors except full SWF.I am fine with that as a change. as I said, i don't think it matters too much for 3 man/4 man swf. It is not like they're struggling anyway.
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And basekit botany because of how much harder it is to get heals solo. And basekit object of obsession because swf constantly call out where the killer is. And basekit deliverance with no requirements because your solo teammates won't rescue you like your swf will. Basekit detectives hunch, all the time, because swf surely communicate where every single totem and gen are. Basekit distortion because swf tell one another when aura perks are in play.
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If the game is doing all the heavy thinking for players, what actual skill remains, and what even is the point of human participation?
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Yes, let's dumb down the survivor role. Let's have every chase be the exact same and have all survivors run on auto pilot. Can't see how that might backfire. Oh wait… It already does with WoO as a perk without cooldown.
This perk is not healthy as is because it turns any survivor that uses it into a bot. They play the exact same on every map and it makes the game repetitive, predictable and boring for both sides because skill doesn't matter when every pallet has to be broken because the survivor has a manual that tells them where to go and how to chain loops. The only thing that could make it even more ridiculous is an auto play button. Which kind of is in the game already because a survivor is replaced by a bot, if they dc.
Jokes aside, this is a terrible idea. Complexity and skill expression both mechanically and in terms of knowledge are what keeps players in the game once they have a grasp on the basics. The more this is dumbed down, the less reason these players have to stay in the game because anyone can do what they do without any effort, which means that there is nothing to learn or work towards.
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If you know you have a powerful perk, be very careful when incorporating it into your game's base kit. Especially if it's a competitive game, you should always consider the impact on your opponent before making an opinion. If not, that's just naivety.
For example, if I told you that a balancing measure for this would be to give the killer a Bamboozle that doesn't change speed but blocks windows, you'd probably object. Yes, because you think it's too strong. When enhancing the killer's abilities, we must always consider the survivors. Therefore, the opposite is also true.
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I can't think of a perk I want less at base kit for me than WoO.
Makes me actively worse at the game in its current iteration, if basekit would mean I can just switch my brain off and run to the yellow blocks all the time. I'd get so much more bored playing Survivor in this game if WoO was basekit.
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I don't think you understand how big 21% is.
It's a lot, when you compare it to any other perk, but it's not everyone.
i'd say 21% is probably 40-50% of survivor perk load outs.
Yeah, that seems like a valid guess. Still nowhere near to everyone.
Borrow time is a raw advantage perk. Are you surprised that soloq and SWF would benefit equally from this change? WoO is info perk
That simply doesn't matter. Only thing that mattters is opening another perk slot. I consider WoO chase perk, because it helps in chase.
inevitably, the UI could be argued to help SWF as well as Soloq but like the stats show
Sure, but depends how much. It all comes down to how easy is that info shared. It's very easy to say just action (healing, working on gen, cleansing a totem) anyone can say this type of information, that's why I don't think it affected SWF that much, but helped soloQ a tons.
Part of reason why the % number is high is because 4 man SWF is not having to run bond or WoO
It's really not true SWF are not using WoO. Everyone is using it and Bond is still good even for SWF. It is useful to everyone other than full SWF, where everyone is skilled enough to use clock call outs, but I can't see those to be majority, it's very small % of players.
To most players, Bond makes body blocking way easier and mainly prevent you to bringing killer to your teammates unless you want to. It's possible to get that affect only with clock call outs, most players are not able to give you precise enough information except major structures (shack, main etc) and even there it can be difficult get into correct position for bodyblocks.
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It's really not true SWF are not using WoO. Everyone is using it and Bond is still good even for SWF. It is useful to everyone other than full SWF, where everyone is skilled enough to use clock call outs, but I can't see those to be majority, it's very small % of players.
the very top usually is small % of players. I do not see any harm in buffing average SWF because average SWF is not over-performing by too much. well they're still 43% but it is not as high as 48%.
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I think what people forget is that it takes up a valuable resource which is a perk slot. While I do 100% feel it's a crutch perk and hate it as a killer. I think it's fine as it is. The trade off is that you don't get to use that a slot for something much more valuable. Someone who knows the game well isn't gonna need it which is why it's a crutch / training wheels perk.
So I think it's fine. If you need that guidance on where to go to loop to loop then go for it. But it's always better to just learn the maps or ar least take note of where pallets are in the current map you are on.
The game has A LOT of safety nets in place. It doesn't need to make a perk that plays part of the game for you as a baseline power. It's so popular because a lot of the player base for the game is very very casual. DbD is likely the only game they play or one of the very few they do play. So most just don't have those skills that others who sink hours into the game or other games.
It's like modern controls in SF6 in the sense that it lets you completely skip a part of learning the game which in that case is execution and the motions. But the trade off is damage in some situations and you straight up lose some moves.
WoO let's you skip learning how to connect loops and memorizing where the pallets are or can be in favor of trading a perk slot that can be used for something much better.
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Unfortunately, DBD is balanced around its RNG. It doesnt always feel good but while WoO doesnt make chases more difficult for killer it does make them significantly longer because there is zero chance of a survivor accidentally going into a dead zone you created.
If you hit a WoO suvivor with some sort of blindness it is WILD how fast they go down. So, to downplay its effectiveness is wild.
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Issue is that information is still more effective for average SWF than soloQ, so it doesn't decrease the gap at all. It's just buff to survivors in general, which I don't think is need for that right now.
What you are basically trying is to get average SWF into competitive SWF level, which I really don't think is good thing to do.
I really couldn't care less about escape rates. If you want to use this to support your claim, then it means there is very little difference between soloQ and SWF, right? So there is no reason to give any buffs to survivors. BHVR wants kill rate on 60%, that fits.
Those results are really not helping anyone.2 -
It'd be interesting to make windows basekit during chase with half the range, and let windows give the full range all the time as it does now.
Then we could balance the maps/M1 killers afterwards if survivors over perform? I feel like this would just help newer survivors anyway, which is always good for the games health.
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We honestly need to stop calling out borrowed time for being incorporated as base kit looking past the trade offs survivors had give to negate its strength such as the faster pallet break speed and hit recovery on the killer side. So stop saying we should make every good solo queue perk base kit without considering the devs having to give complementary buffs to the killer side, when they can spend time looking at more problematic balances and perk combinations for the game.
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