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KNOCK OUT perk and slugging playstyle
Comments
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It's not up to you to decide whats "bad" or not. That players problem…they think the only right way to do something is THEIR way.
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Simply entering the locker before being attacked can nullify the knockout.
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Who is your reply for?
If it were for me, so here is mine: Iridescent0 -
Haha, I don't care about the book, it has nothing to do with the issue here!
Firstly, You used "SWF" as an excuse for bad play, and I replied that you were making excuses because the "SWF" rate was not high in all matches (even when I play as a killer or soloq survivor in high MMR).
Secondly, you compare "camping, tunneling, slugging" with "flashlight save, pallet save, DS, looping, etc.". I also pointed out that it was a lame comparison. I took a screenshot of that reply here:
And thirdly, I asked you "Do people admire and follow 'FAKER' because of his skills in LOL, or because he plays badly? That's it!! Do you get it?" in the previous comment, and now, you pulled out a book with a "name" as your answer haha.
Just, all you wanna say is "I WANT TO WIN, SO I'LL DO EVERYTHING EVEN BAD PLAY JUST TO WIN", am I right?
Think of football, bad things often happen in unorganized matches, but in professional ones, no one wants their image to be bad.
In e-sport tournaments, if candidates/teams perform bad tricks to win, no one will watch. If TTV-ers or YT-ers do those bad things, then who will sub for them?
Agree that everyone wants to win the game, but winning in nice ways requires skills.
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That's right, I don't have the right to decide that. Because, a decent player realizes that this is something they should not do, which is why we often don't see such bad actions in tournaments, as well as in high-sub channels. Just like not being a hatch player, not being a holding-hostage player is respecting your teammates' and killers' experience.
Ya, it's true 😎. I took a screenshot of a reply above:
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i've always found saying devs favor one side ridiculous but i'll start feeling that way if they ever decide to nerf knock out of all perks. that would be the evidence for me that they are trying to force killer's hand and make the game play as survivors ever wish, nothing to do with killer decisions.
first they buffed otr because they wanted ds out of meta and make otr an alternative, and now with buffed back ds we have both for some unknown reason.
they added gen block and anti camp mechanics
they nerfed all meaningful hook-based gen slowdown
they buffed sabo like crazy
and now we are crying about knock out and slugging when it's a pure skill issue to get 4 man slugged, by a ghostface too. i'll say it like some survivor players love to say: what do you want the killers to do, stand still and let you go?
Post edited by NerfDHalready on3 -
- 1st: basekit helps GF undetectable
- 2nd: this map, GF found us before we could find teammates (we were all soloq)
- 3rd: found teammates, and get exposed while healing (unless they have full recovery)
» » » Ya, you're a pro soloq survivor, I see 🙂!!
Seemly many weak killers cry about nerf this nerf that, while hundreds of TTV/YT every day show the opposite. Truly, no one wants to sub and watch a guy who only does bad tricks (even a newbie can do) to win. So, just watch how they play, they live usually.
I don't see slugging as a big problem. And here is an example of decent use of 'Knock Out', not abuse it to ruin the whole game.
You said "i've always found saying devs favor one side ridiculous but i'll start feeling that way if they ever decide to nerf knock out of all perks." » » » So, you're a 'KNOCK OUT' player like that GF?
Just like many killers yell about "survivors only hide, don't do gens, take an hour in the match". That's it, that's a bad play on the survivors' side. It ruins killers' experience. On the other side, there are things that also ruin survivors' experience. Only people who play both sides know that, and not blaming the perks, the nerf. Many survivors yell about killers' basekit, addon, perks, etc. Practically, people call this a killer-side game. Meanwhile, many killers yell about DS, flashlight, sabo, pallet… and make comparison like this:
As I have the answer in a comment above. Even a newbie can do camping/tunneling/slugging. But things like sabo save, bodyblock save, pallet save, flashlight save… it must be done at the right time, and it needs practice to master that technique.
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Firstly, I'm not condoning this style of gameplay. However, I believe there are a few reasons, including:
- Believing this is the only way to win. This is down to either insecurity, what they have been led to believe online and so on.They have become convinced they can only win using this method.
- Anger: Previous experiences against survivors who have either been poor winners, or simply outplayed them and played honourably, may have warped them into wanting revenge on others, grouping them alltogether. They are probably the weakest emotionally.
- For the memes. They do this so that they can enjoy the responses, either in chat or posting online. Normally, this is usually for entertainment (or angertainment as some now call it).
- Tactical: This is when it becomes apparent this is either the best option available or the survivors put themselves into this vulnerable position. This tactic doesn't result in bleedouts as that Killer will mop up the mess afterwards. The latter occurance is down purely to survivor error.
In the case you showed, this probably falls into the 2nd or 3rd category. It is to be noted slugging (with exception to the fourth point) is normally easy mode. In pubs, even against strong teams, this isn't necessary to win. If I can win with Trapper using randomized setups vs meta players, then so can many others. I feel it's psychology which prevents people from doing so.
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Increase recovery debuff to like 75% and remove the invisible aspect of it, now it'll be not that bad for solo que while being really useful against SWF
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Sorry, not to sound hostile but "Iridescent" what? The grade in the lobby screen?
If yes, that has nothing to do with skill, only amount of playtime each month. Especially nowadays with depipping being gone.
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No, it is the grade that you will be notified of after each season ends, and receive the corresponding bp reward. Bp doesn't matter, but you will be informed about it.
MMR system is based on it to match players with each other. Many pro killers have explained that, when someone uses bad tricks to win at low MMR, they will increase to higher MMR, then they match with higher skilled survivors, they cannot win 4K and they start blaming in this way, in that way. On the survivors side, I've matched with many hatch players, who never try to do gen, only hide somewhere, do cycle of picking & dropping their item, waiting for teammates to carry everything, or to die, then escape themselves. They escape that way, then they go up to higher MMR, meet better killers who have the technique to handle those situations, then blame about killers' basekit, add-on, etc. too OP.
Great idea, bro!! I love that 😎
You're right!! Your explanation is very clear 👍️
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Just want to add something here about about pro tournament play. I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that there is no "bad play" in tourneys. If anything, "bad play" is the standard. Nearly every match without fail inolves the killer camping, tunneling, and/or slugging. It isn't bad play for the otherside to try to win! Also this obviously applies for survivors as well. Weaponizing DS, predropping pallets, body blocking and genrushing is not "bad play", its players trying to win!
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The book literally explains exactly what you are complaining about. I'll translate it using DBD terms instead of fighting games like the book.
Camping and tunneling over and over is a tactics close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. Why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a strategy that is used constantly? Is he such a poor player that he cannot counter such an obvious strategy? And, if for whatever reason, that strategy is extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't i be a fool for not using that strategy? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing WHATEVER MOST INCREASES YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING. that is true by definition of playing to win. THE GAME KNOWS NO RULES OF "HONOR" OR OF "CHEAPNESS" THE GAME ONLY KNOWS WINNING AND LOSING.
If you want these strategies to go away, you need to be telling the devs to start encouraging and promoting healthier strategies instead of these ones?
Why do we nerf perks like pain res and grim embrace that literally BY DESIGN force you to actively NOT CAMP AND TUNNEL in order to get value out of them? Why do we constantly lock anti-tunnel behind perks that you have to pay for instead of creating a basekit mechanic for it? Why is the game balanced in such a way that killer's start the game from behind, creating a mentality that they "have" to use these strategies to win.
Don't you think the game would be more fun for everyone, if instead of kills, the game was balanced around hooks and chases?
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Again, i bring back the book by David Sirlin:
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
If the strategy is SO GOOD and SO DIFFICULT TO COUNTER, then wouldn't i be dumb for not using such a strategy to my advantage? You need to be complaining to the devs to encourage the healthier playstyles, and not complain at the players using them.
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And once yet again, WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE WHATS "DECENT", when somone plays a videogame it isnt about morality or being a good/bad person, its about playing a videogame. We are not in a tournament, we are not in a stream, we are ordinary players, THE MAJORITY OF PLAYERS, just trying to play the videogame we bought.
The sooner players like you realize that your gaming experience wont be catered to by everyone else, the sooner the community will become a less toxic place.3 -
Stop projecting. We arent tournament players restricted by ridiculous rules and we arent streamers trying meme builds or having fun with donation builds, we are ordinary players playing the game we paid for. Its not up for you to decide what is and isnt "decent" behavior. You play the game your way, I will play the game my way.
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Really? Do you watch tournaments? Sometimes people confuse applying pressure (when faced with a bully team) and camping. No one wants to watch a boring tournament with only bad tricks to win.
And to correct myself, I'm not the one saying that DS, pallet save, flashlight save... are "bad play", but this guy:
And, here is "bad play" on survivors side, as my clear answer for him:
I summarize:
- Flashlight save, pallet save, looping,… Those are skills that need a lot of practice to master. It can't be compared with camping, tunneling and slugging which any newbie can do. So, people want to watch, to sub, to be a fan of teams or pro players who have skilled performance.
- "Bad play" on survivors side are considered hatch players, or holding-hostage players. They only hide, don't want to do anything, ignore teammates, leave teammates to carry or die, and then try to survive and escape alone. If there are at least 2 of them in a trial, it brings an extremely bad experience to killers. The trial can even take long an hour.
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Is the book writer a part or a member or a fan or a player of esports? Do you play DBD? If not, then he has nothing to do with this. Books are just books, and many of them have absurd, unrealistic views, even if the author has never experienced the relevant thing. And you use it as your excuse haha.
In short, it's still you making excuses for your bad habits. As you said "Camping and tunneling over and over is a tactics close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub". Ya, clearly, it's your habit, your playstyle from the beginning, from the first day you bought this game. And, you've never learned how to play in a decent way.
Just ask yourself: Why can other people play decently, people livestream it usually, but I can't, and I explain my bad because of this neft, because of that neft? Why do I compare things a newbie can do (camp, tunnel, slug), with things that require practice to master (pallet save, flashlight save, etc.)? Why didn't I realize the "bad play" of the survivors was the ones just hiding, holding the game hostage (hatch player)?
For your more information:
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Ok, fine, so you finally consider yourself a mediocre player, and don't want to develop your skills. Just like when playing football in the neighborhood, you can play as toxic as you want. It's ok, I get it.
If you ask why gens fly or suffer things like many other killers crying. Here is the answer:
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The author of the book is a game designer, a big one at that that is big in the fighting game community and has been in charge of design and balance for many massively competitive esports games.
But, now you are engaging in a logical fallacy by attacking the author. Attack the argument i am making. Which is simple. If you want those strategies which we both agree are unfun to go away. Then the devs need to stop encouraging those playstyles and start encouraging the healthier ones. Balance the game around hooks and chases instead of kills.
Why exactly are you fighting me on this? Can you please explain any reason you think that is a bad idea?
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I haven't been seeing sabo squads nearly as much as I assumed I would, but I've been keeping a build handy just for them on every killer I play. If they really don't want to be hooked, I'll oblige them.
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As a matter of fact, im a caster for several leagues, so I think I know a few things about tournaments. You on the otherhand have very clearly never watched one. I suggest DBDLeague if you want to see what a top tier league looks like.
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No, it is the grade that you will be notified of after each season ends, and receive the corresponding bp reward. Bp doesn't matter, but you will be informed about it.
MMR system is based on it to match players with each other.
No it isn't and never was?
What you have in mind is the old rank system. Both are dependent on pipping and depipping and the simple fact that depipping isn't no longer a thing should be a dead giveaway that grades have nothing to do with matchmaking. They are exclusively for the extra BP each month.
MMR is determined by a hidden elo value. It is officially even supposed to be individual for all killer characters. Another indicator that grades have nothing to do with it.
Matchmaking was first based on the visible ranks but got switched to an elo system a few years back because everyone ended in red/iridescent ranks and we got the rainbow lobbies.
When it got implemented it worked like a regular MMR system but ended with "pro" players being stuck in 2 hour lobbies. Then they softened the criteria and we went back to the pseudo "rng" matchmaking.
Tldr: Grades have NOTHING to do with matchmaking and are only an indicator how much someone plays each month between reset and give a BP reward.
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Haha, look at the list of games he designed, does anyone play them? And those games belong to the fighting, puzzle and boardgame genres, which have nothing to do with this. Be aware that the things stated in his book were intended to make him sell the games, but the result was still a failure.
You ask me why…?!! Hey buddy, it was you who fought me first. Read the previous comments, you are also the one who explained your bad play with the reason that survivors use pallet saves, flashlight saves, DS... And I just point out why that is a wrong comparison: your bad playstyle is the thing even a newbie can do, but survivors' stuff as you listed are things that must be practiced a lot to master.
Ok, it's like playing football in the neighborhood, you can play as 'toxic' as you want. I get it 🙂. Your choice, bro
So can I ask for the records (a social link, YT, etc.) of the DBD tournament that you organized where the candidates compete to win in bad ways? And the DBD movie of Blumhouse doesn't seem to have an official release date yet, right? Anw, it's just like a LOL movie, the events in the movie cannot be compared to the context in the game match, one side is a story-based movie, the other side is game matches. Truly, many players confuse applying pressure (when faced with a bully team) and camping (all the time, in every single match).
"I haven't been seeing sabo squads nearly as much as I assumed I would" » » » Exactly bro!!
Ya, we share the same experience with 'hailxsatanxeveryxday'.
Thanks for the information that I missed. ELO or whatever, anyway, the players matching system must still result in an even match where players will end up facing opponents at the same level, not perfectly, but as balanced as possible.
I have to admit, I have met many killers who mastered their basekit (especially the Nurse, the Huntress and the Deathslinger), and also met a few high-skilled survivors, even their chase carried up to 5 gens (sounds crazy, but it's true). Really admire them!!
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First of all I am a caster. Casters are like sports commentators so we do not organize the leagues. That honor goes to people like Direwolf and Rey. As for links, just search DBDLeague on twitch. Vods are public and they have a youtube channel of the same name. You could also watch the Hens33 Spring Inivitational, since it uses largely the same structure of tournaments. Also, what the hell does the Blumhouse movie have anything to do with what I said earlier?
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Sorry for the misunderstanding that you were referring to the Blumhouse movie DBD. My fault for skimming quickly.
I often watch videos randomly by keywords, and look for videos or streams that have a lot of views at that time. "bronx" for example, he always has high views every time he streams. He plays very well and decently. I watched tournament video recordings on YT using the keyword "tournament". That's how I view it.
So, thank you for giving me more information about that event and channel. But this information still doesn't change what I see.
As a caster, you must distinguish two situations very clearly: applying pressure (when faced with a bully team) and camping (all the time, in every single match).
In most tournament matches, survivors are always pro bully SWF teams. What I observed with professional killers is that they prioritize protecting gens, while still putting pressure on rescue. This is completely different from the 100% toxic gameplay, such as 'consistent' camping (stand still at the hook and ignore everything else, or walk 5-8 meters around the hook even knowing the survivors are soloq and there is no rescue signal).
For normal daily matches, as some people commented above, they use "SWF" as an excuse to play toxic in every single match. They even use "pallet save, flashlight save, DS,..." (that takes practice to master) as excuses for being toxic (that a newbie can do) in every single match. If in tournaments it is 100% SWF, then in daily matches this percentage is significantly low.
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Iridescent what? What are you talking about?
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Again, attack the idea, not the person. Stop engaging in Ad Hominem attacks and explain to me, what is wrong with the ideas?
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Even good swf is not that big buff though as those offering you suggest. Maybe offering giving 120% speed would be enough already to beat them if you're good. Maybe ability to mori one survivor after hooking them once etc.
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The answer for you was clearly discussed with 'burt0r' above.
It's true haha!
Sorry for being so enthusiastic in answering everything, and giving you all the clarification. But I realized that, no matter what I say, if you're the one who always wants to play 'toxic' (your habit) in every single match, you'll always have a reason (no matter how lame) for it. So you and I should stop discussing this further, lest I become known as an attacker (even though I was just the one responding to what you mentioned earlier). As this buddy said:
Just like when playing football in the neighborhood, you can play as toxic as you want. You're right, no one cares. No spectators, no viewers, no referee, no caster. It's true.
I do not represent BHVR so I have no right to tell you how to play decently 🙂
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I play to win, not toxic, but i agree, its the least fun way to play.
I really don't understand what you are arguing here anymore. You are saying tunneling and camping are bad, which we both agree, but you are saying that players are "mean" for doing it, and not complaining that the developers enable it. Like again, i simply ask you, what is your counter argument to what i'm saying?
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I think, in terms of business efficiency, if those gameplay styles were completely eliminated, many unskilled killers would give up, and some situations would not be able to be handled flexibly when facing a bully team or SWF. Therefore, it only needs to be limited to a reasonable level, avoiding abuse. Recent feedback is about encouraging decent actions instead of toxic/bad ones by suitable mechanisms.
Personally, I still find it bad to overuse it in every match, because it ruins the game experience of survivors. As I compared holding-hostage players and hatch players, they will ruin the game experience of killers. Simply saying, an act that sabotages the experience of others is unacceptable, whether at a real-life party or in an online game match. Hope this is a suitable answer to your question.
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I hope you face others who waste your time as much as you are wasting theirs :)
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The Ghostface kit is extremely weak.
There are commonly used perks that can completely cheese the Ghostface kit, most of these perks are activated when hooking and provide a god-mode style effect.
Why would a good Ghostface….give the survivors any opportunity at all….to nullify ridiculously difficult M1 plays.…by allowing them a chance to use god-mode perks?
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
More like the buff to hook time. What's even the point of hooking? Waste time doing a thing you have to do 2 more times per person, meanwhile survivors can just rush gens and hook trade at the last second, which is still not in your favor time-wise.
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You're looking too far into it. They don't play like that to be toxic; they play to win. If what they're doing didn't advance their objective in any way, it's probably toxic. Same with survivors who tbag or moonwalk at the killer.
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Your entire argument is that killers defending their gens, instead of tunneling or whatever, is what gets them the win. But then you think that those gen defence perks being nerfed has nothing to do with more people playing "boring," and that they can be just as strong as before while using nerfed strategies. Just looking at the math of efficient survivors vs efficient killers, a killer getting a down like every 30 seconds still isn't enough to protect gens, because 2 are popping right after the first chase, and 2 more will pop sometime during the 2-4th chase. So the killer's usually at 1 gen with 4 hooks. Why would he not want to get a survivor out of the game ASAP if that's the speed that 4 survivors do their objective? He can circumvent some chase time or gen time with perks, but then the survivors have equivalent perks on their side, and there's 4 of them.
Truth is, gen defence is pointless. You'll beat the bad survivors with that strategy, but the good ones physically can't be stopped from doing all 5. I don't want to win my matches because MMR chose me as a charity case. I want to win because of my skill, which fast gens and long chase times don't allow. So of course it looks to you like low-skill killers are winning; they barely have a chance to interact with you. But they were smart, and instead of hooking 4 people and getting nothing for it, they got 1 kill. If the survivors are too scared or nooby to hook save at the end, they get at least another kill. Path of least resistance.
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There's no reward for injuring, downing, or hooking. And there's no downside to being injured, so survivors actually misplay when they heal instead of do gens. So killers have been looking for alternatives in the form of tunneling, camping, and slugging. I just tunnel with chase perks and Rancor at the end, and usually get a 2k from that. It's not much but it's better than a completely undeserved 0k.
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Had a survivor like this during 2v8. He kept doing a little T bag after every pallet. After his last down, I did a little killer hump for like 3 seconds before sending him on his way. 2 minutes later, I get a PS message saying "enjoy the ban".
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That GF was the one who wasted our time by leaving us bleeding to death :).
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1/ In recent statistics, GF is in the top 10 most popular killers. He is the strongest stealth killer (especially in dark or in-house maps). He needs to be utilized his unique skill set, he can't get 4K with just normal chasing (like Trapper never uses his traps, just uses M1 to chase).
2/ To avoid further misunderstanding, the post mainly discussed the perk, not about GF (he was here just as an example of using this perk). It was clearly shown in the main title of the thread. If that was a well-normal gameplay (with other GFs), so there wouldn't be this post.
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1/ In recent statistics, GF is in the top 10 most popular killers. He is the strongest stealth killer (especially in dark or in-house maps). He needs to be utilized his unique skill set, he can't get 4K with just normal chasing (like Trapper never uses his traps, just uses M1 to chase).
2/ To avoid further misunderstanding, the post mainly discussed the perk, not about GF (he was here just as an example of using this perk). It was clearly shown in the main title of the thread. If that was a well-normal gameplay (with other GFs), so there wouldn't be this post.
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Hooking is a game mechanic, and BHVR does this for a reason, to keep the game balanced, you see streamers don't skip hooking, because to get more viewers they have to make the game interesting and show off their professional skills.
Just like some people compare camping, tunneling with flashlight or looping, that is a lame comparison because camping and tunneling are performances that even newbies can do, but using a flashlight and demonstrating looping techniques is something that requires a lot of practice to master. This is also true in real life, even in major tournaments like the World Cup or the Olympics.
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What?!! Unbelievable, BHVR has "UNSPORTSMANLIKE" in their report categories after every single match, but truly they prevent people from reporting tunneling or camping or hooking (source: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/139-game-rules), so why were you being warned like that?!! Hope your account is still safe, sorry to hear that.
Despite having collected surveys from players many times, despite having millions of comments mentioning these UNSPORTSMANLIKE issues, it seems that BHVR has been ignoring them for many years, which is why their ratings are dropping on Steam, and their new games are not well-received by the community because the community has lost faith.
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Oh, I have 0 worry that a message from a salty survivor will result in a ban, lol.
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Great! I thought it was a notification from BHVR, I didn't think it was a normal message from a toxic player 😅.
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i like this change
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