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Debunking Skull Merchant's Common Complaints
Comments
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Fully agreed! It would be fantastic if that were the argument people were making.
Of course, it isn't the argument people make. Hence it not being on this list.
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Personally I would probably add footsteps discernable within ~12m and that buzzing sound she gets when undetectable should be audible either in a big area or global and see where it goes from there but that might be all it needs or even a bit less
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I'm less interested in really exploring the nuances of that discussion now, and more interested in pointing out that the common version of that complaint is missing an extremely key element of the discussion.
After all, this is a post of responses to common complaints.
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Great write up! I have zero problems with SM. Love her as part of the greater Killer roster. Also, games against her (imo) actually feel “Most Dangerous ‘Gamey’”. Running from loop to loop against her feels thrilling and exciting. I personally cannot complain about her.
Especially when she locks the whole map down with drones, it feels like an infiltration horror movie.
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She takes the barest amount of skill. Really more game experience than anything. Just gotta know to put Drone's in loops and on gens and you'll win 99/100 times.
She does take away Survivor skill. That's literally her entire kit. If she places a drone, which she will, you HAVE to leave the loop or get hit. That's removing the most skillful thing about Survivor, looping. God forbid you actually try to loop her since she can be faster and not have a tell. Couple that with Hindered and random Undetectable without warning and you have a Killer that specializes in making things as unskillful as possible.
She gets plenty of value against all but the best coordinated Survivors.
Hyperbole or not, it's still correct.
Low skill-floor but high-value is a problem. SM has nearly zero skill expression, certainly none related to her power, and the riveting counterplay of, "Delay the hit by 5 seconds by leaving the loop when she puts down a Drone or else you just die"
Even BL3 falters against some pallets and you are forced to break them. SM, and Knight, will keep forcing you to new loops and you'll be forced to play the same counterplay over and over again. At least Knight has his Banner. With SM, even if she places a Drone at Shack and can't get you, you still get Hindered and she gets Haste, so you get zero distance.
Not sure why you just ignore her issues simply because you play her a lot. I play Knight a lot but I fully recognize that he sucks ass to play against and that the game would be better if he were re-designed. Enjoying a character doesn't mean you can't think they are fundamentally flawed.
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The problem you keep running into here is that you keep conflating one possible thing she can do with her entire kit. I think you're also overblowing that one thing - there are three killers who can do the "drop stuff at a loop, force survivors to run" thing and she's the least problematic of the three - but even if you aren't, that's not the whole killer.
The most you could conclude from this argument - YOUR argument, not mine - is that the one thing you're describing desperately needs to be fixed. It's NOT grounds to conclude that the whole killer needs to be redesigned, or tossed out, or that she has no skill expression, etcetera etcetera, because what you're describing is not her whole kit, it's one specific tactic she can do.
To say that she has "nearly zero skill expression, certainly none related to her power" because of one thing she CAN do but does not NEED to do is massively reductive for no benefit.
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I've made my points, you've done the same thing since the first comment and have stuck your head in the sand, but it's not my responsibility nor goal to convince you.
I feel I've accurately conveyed my argument in the best way possible to show other people why they should not tolerate such lackluster Killer design.
All this to say, I'm out lol
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there are three killers who can do the "drop stuff at a loop, force survivors to run" thing and she's the least problematic of the three
Your bias is so massive, it's punching through the roof. I can't take this seriously at all.
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I can justify that if you want. I'll even also say that it honestly doesn't even matter, it's a problem for all three and should be fixed somehow for all three.
But, if we want to go down that route, I don't think those three killers are on equal footing when it comes to how problematic the strat is.
There's only a fine line between "massive bias" and "having actually thought about the topic and having a more substantial take on it".
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Skull Merchant is an affront to game design.
There's nothing particularly skillful about following a survivor to a loop, tapping M2, and profiting — which is how 99.9% of SMs play. Her having the ability to do some interesting things like hiding drones or lasertagging is moot, because the majority of players will take the path of least resistance to win and this so-called "skill expression" will never see the light of day.
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As long as you acknowledge her kit has skill expression, then you're not falling afoul of that point in this post.
People starting from that more honest and accurate position would definitely elevate the state of discourse to the point where conversations can actually happen, but then again, most people would still be starting with that emotionally-driven comment up at the start of your post, I suppose…
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most people would still be starting with that emotionally-driven comment up at the start of your post, I suppose…
This is what always gets me. If the majority of people are coming to the same conclusion and saying this same thing then maybe they have a point?
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Mostly the issue there is that it isn't really a majority, it's just a common sentiment. Also, there are a lot of common sentiments that aren't actually accurate, the appeal to majority is a fallacy for a reason.
Like, this post exists for a reason. I got up to eight common complaints that were wrong in some way, seven if you discount the second one that mostly exists to support the first. Those things that people are saying absolutely do not have a point, hence the post existing. Yet, they're still common.
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just when i think I'm out, you pull me right back in…
Just because you believe complaints to be wrong doesn't ACTUALLY make them wrong. You haven't proven anything and clearly, people disagree with your ideas.
I might re-evaluate.
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Yeah, I mean, that's what the post is for. Laying out the reasons why they're wrong.
Like, that's the proof. The stuff I wrote. In the post you're responding to.
You're welcome to disagree, but outside of doggedly refusing to acknowledge the difference between a killer being able to do a thing and that thing being, quote, "literally her entire kit", you've not exactly supported that disagreement with anything substantial.
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that were wrong in some way,
Wrong according to you.
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Which I laid out two thousand words worth of reasoning for.
I'm not just saying "it's wrong because I say so". I did actually go to the lengths of explaining my position.
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Some thin arguments. #1. Drone placement is the equivalent of knowing which shoe to put on which foot given how big the drone area is. Walk to a transit point, M2, done. Compare this to a slightly misplaced Trapper's bear trap or Singularity pod's vision being blocked by clutter you failed to take into account. Sure, this could happen on SM, too, but it is both much less likely and less impactful on her. There is some nuance with windows and maybe holes in walls but you still just press M2 and forget about it and there is no snap decisionmaking. It is so obvious what good or at least decent spots are and it gets easier the longer the game goes on. Her skill floor is quite literally on the floor. Classifying Lasertagging as skill is not something I completely disagree with but it is a low bar. While I appreciate the semantics of no skill vs not compelling skill, you are quite generous in her favor here.
#2: I think I saw some pointing out that SM doesn't slow herself when denying the loop. I would just add there is no point in taking the 50/50 M1 mindgame if you are healthy and potentially you're going to get scanned twice for it, drop the pallet and get hit anyway. This mindgame is also rigged when you get tagged - even less reason to play this. So you leave every time, only stay if you have to and then sooner rather than later you get rolled by mega bloodlust.
#3: Often you just take both the scan and the M1 because giving up distance is not worth avoiding the scan especially if she sneaks up on you which is not that difficult in soloQ. You can only hope it was your first scan. She can also see the drone beams so she knows when you would have to crouch meaning she runs you down easily. A counter that is only a counter if you are healthy is a weird definition.
#5: She does not have to do anything other than to put down drones. She does not manually scan survivors. So, yes, she pushes one button and gets status effects for it. How avoidable these are for survivors is a different discussion and ties into #2.
#6: This is the thinnest point of the bunch. It is unpredictable because you don't know when someone across the map gets their third scan - especially true for soloQ. I already commented on skilled placement in #1.
I would add one more complaint to the list: You cannot really help your teammates. What are you going to do? Bodyblock drone beams and screw over the one who is dying and be a liability for 60s or so? Or are you going disable the three drones at shack so your mate can play it only to watch her recall all of them before getting there and placing a new one while losing no distance whatsoever? Sure, she is not unique in this but I make this point anyway.
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You probably said it better than me, but yeah. Most of the anger towards Skull Merchant is 1) entitlement, and 2) blissful ignorance. They don't want to have to strategize, not 3-gen themselves, actually learning about her power, paying attention to how fast she's moving or if she's undetectable, etc. There are also many who did put in the time and effort to learn her original release form, and now just rage quit out of entitlement, not knowing that she's not even the same killer. "What? She can't expose me with the drones now?" No. That's what the constant balance updates are for. The other practical gameplay scenarios you mentioned are also sound advice. Like really? She can just put a drone down at every loop, or 3-gen from the start, and automatically beat you that way? No. People would kill to have it that easy as killer.
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Literally nothing you wrote is proof. Obviously you see it as 100% fact, but not many other people do.
It comes off as just ignoring criticism by saying, "I already disproved that, because I think what I'm saying is right."
You are the one making a claim here. The burden of proof falls to you and most of us are unsatisfied with the arguments you've presented. Most are opinion, but a couple are just outright wrong.
Post edited by Pulsar on8 -
So, just to be clear: I'm not saying "I already disproved that because I think what I'm saying is right". I'm directing you to the fact that I've already laid out a response to the thing you're saying. It's not that I'm saying it's 100% fact, it's that those are my reasonings and you're not actually responding to them.
You haven't added anything to this discussion. You're just repeating the claims I made this post to counter. You're acting like all there is to her is zoning out survivors with mid-chase drones, and ignoring any attempt I make at pointing out that this isn't true. You even tried to duck out of the conversation entirely when I confronted you on that directly.
I am more than open to debating my points. That just requires acknowledging my points and trying to counter them. You think some of the arguments I laid out are outright wrong? Make that case! I'm more than down for discussing it. You just aren't doing that.
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I stopped at "The Skull Merchant's skill expression comes in a few areas"
Yeah, not wasting my time with this one
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So why waste both our time by commenting?
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Not wasting anymore
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You CAN play Sniper Knight. You could have played non condemned Sadako.
That doesn't mean that the playstyles that 99% of players used are suddenly okay. Sure, if some people don't do that, it's nice. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if there are other options if nobody uses them.
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I Just think that killer is absolute boring and she got everything just pressing a button and wait, no skill, boring, terrible counterplayer, i never play against her and i will give up instantly, i dont need stay where im playing boring. If this happen. Its a company problem and BHVR needs understand why this product make people stop to play. SM is an issue. If u disagree. OK. Its my opinion and i dont change my mind
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You have done exactly the same when people showed you why the skill ceiling with SM is so low and the argument of her requiring very few skill is true to a lot of people. You just refuse to acknowledge that she requires by many orders of magnitude very low skill in order to get results effectively.
You just repeat your point like its 100% fact when way more people have showed you why its not. Hell I even played some skull merchant after pixelbushs guide to discover her apparent skill ceiling, she is still one if not the easiest killer to master.
Because all the macro she requires all killer need to master too, so its not intrinsic to her, her techs are minimal and incredibly easy to master at that, using drones at an elevation to allow double floor scans just requires you to know its possible and be able to click m2, laser tagging is just as easy too.
And looping with her is just place drone at a loop and either go after them when they leave or continue looping until they get slowed and its a free down or they crouch and stand still and you get m1s.
You did not place a drone at a loop? How you are using m1 gameplay, which is not exclusive to SM and any m1 killer does. You are using her drones in the entrance to main building or inbetween chain tiles for clutch scans? Wow you needed to know where to places are and press m2, how difficult.
You complain people who undermine SM do not listen to your arguments however you yourself are incapable of accepting an argument that does not support your previous views.
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It doesn't, no. This particular reply, in isolation, is completely correct.
What it doesn't do is support the rest of your arguments in this thread. Like I said to you before, the most you can conclude here is that the loop-zoning strategy needs to be fixed. It doesn't support the argument that it's "literally her entire kit", it doesn't support the argument that she should be deleted from the game, it doesn't support the argument that she's a failure, or any of the other things you and others say about her regularly. It just means there's a problem.
Like I said to you before, you're acting like there being one problem means the entire rest of the power no longer exists. It's an irrational starting position that poisons all discourse, and actively obfuscates any chance of meaningful, useful feedback.
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Right, so, things have started drifting off course and I'll try to bring them back on track.
There are a few different positions all being smushed together here, which to be fair is pretty easy to do. For the record, I would never claim that Skull Merchant is not a killer with a low skill floor, nor would I pretend that she's up there with the hardest killers to master. She has a low skill floor, and most of her skill ceiling is tactical rather than mechanical. This is a perfectly fine thing to say in isolation, and I agree with it- she's basically in line with killers like Clown and Legion, neither of whom are mechanically difficult to play and mostly revolve around macro strats and specific positioning of power usage (in Clown's case) as you get to higher level play.
The problem is, people warp that position into something else. They warp it into saying that she gets massive value for extremely little effort, which isn't true. The skill floor is low, but the rewards for the low-skill plays are proportionately low. Not exactly where they should be, mind, but the whole "drop something at a loop and force survivors to run away" thing doesn't exactly win games against halfway decent survivors no matter which killer does it, and that's the only thing that gives disproportionate reward. It's a problem, but not because it's OP.
So, yes, I will "refuse" to acknowledge that she gets massive results for little effort, because that isn't true. The second that survivors understand how her power works - and I will acknowledge that isn't as likely to happen as it should be because of her reputation - even dropping stuff at a loop to zone gets less effective. I am more than happy to support that statement with further arguments if there's actually interest in hearing me out, instead of just shutting down the mere idea of discussing this by stubbornly repeating the core claim back at me as though I haven't been trying to argue against it this entire time.
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