Why are they nerfing Vecna so soon?
"Time to pick up a pallet with mage hand reverted back to 0.5 seconds from 0.35
Range of mage hand reduced to 14m from 16m.
Telekinesis ring add-on rework."
Did they purposely made Vecna stronger to sell this chapter or is that pure conspiracy theory?
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It's another knee jerk nerf by BHVR to placate survivors crying about a new Killer before they learn how to play against them first.
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Imagine nerfing this killer within the first upcoming patch but nerfing For the People + Buckle Up took them months to see reasonable changes.
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It took them like 6-7 years to finally nerf Dead Hard from "Must have" to "Nice to have" and a year and a half to nerf CoH which was an infinite use Medkit for the whole Survivor team pre-nerf.
Pretty clear where BHVRs biases lie with their balancing priorities lie.
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I imagine it is due to Vecna being - extremely - weak on PTB, so to make him viable (and yes, entice sales), they buffed the heck out of him since the release date was approaching quickly.
Then they realized they overbuffed his mage hand and are acting accordingly.
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To anyone who doesn't think Mage Hand was overbuffed, look at the actual numbers:
Time for survivor to put down pallet: 0.5 seconds
Time for killer to lift pallet (base): 0.35 seconds
Time for killer to lift pallet (telekenesis add-on): 0.2275 seconds
Movement speed after using Mage Hand: 3.68m/s for 2 secondsEssentially a survivor would put down a pallet costing them 0.5 seconds, Vecna would lift it in 0.2275.
In that 0.5 pallet drop animation, not only is the pallet lifted, but Vecna gained 1m of distance (3.68 * [0.5 - 0.2275]).
Vecna then also gained 5.52m during the remaining 1.5 second slowdown after casting Mage Hand, for a total of 6.52m covered in the 2 second pallet drop/lift + slowdown period.Meanwhile survivors, in that same 2 second timeframe of drop/lift + killer slowdown, would get 6m worth of distance (4m/s * 1.5 seconds). That's 0.52m less distance covered than Vecna in that timeframe, essentially giving him distance on you because you dropped a pallet.
Survivors were literally punished for dropping a pallet against Vecna, but they also can't camp and hold it vs him because that means the pallet lift animation just turns into a pallet hold and they get run down. Sooo… what can they do?
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Exactly. Many of my survivor friend who also play killer more than half the time even said he was overtuned. I don’t think he’s OP by any means but he did need tuned down slightly.
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Where is this info from?
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Post from the community manager here on the forums, responding to another thread.
Here's a link for ya:5 -
Thanks! Okay so the 14m thing is already reverted. 🤣
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This exactly. Mage Hand should be mindgameable on the basis of Vecna being forced to predict whether the survivor will drop the pallet or not, but thanks to the very fast pallet pick up time, he can simply react to the pallet drop. And if the survivor doesn't drop the pallet, there is no chance Vecna will waste his Mage Hand on a pallet block unless he is close enough to get a hit with it, because again, he doesn't have to predict the survivors pallet drop.
The nerf will simply fix this and that's it, he'll still be strong after that.
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Lets be brutally honest Devs should have looked at mage hand on paper and realize it was never going to be a balanceable power it can either be op or worthless and it shows it should have been scrapped or reworked
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Disagree MH will never have a mind game to it it either guarantees a hit or it dont it can never be balanced
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His ability is too strong right now. It’s really as simple as that.
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so people should just get destroyed 15-20 games in a row until they get the hang of it? Nah. The lifeblood of any game is attracting new players, if I DL this game on gamepass and get crushed 5 games in a row by the same killer, I'm done. They HAVE to nerf the killer and if he is underperforming in 3 weeks, buff his back up again. its a live service game, players dont need to be eating crud for 3 weeks at a time because you want to mash people when a new killer comes out.
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well you math out the exact counter. you need to pre-drop pallet around 7-8 meters to make it back around the loop. Let's say every loop is 8 seconds. the killer moves at 4.6, so he gains 0.6 m/s per second. within loop, the killer would catch 4.8 meters from 6x0.6, so in total, 10 meters is needed to be front of the killer to be safe on pallet drop. The entire loop in meters is like 40 meters as rough estimate.
survivor just need to learn correct distancing for the ability to not be effective. With ataloper 7% haste for 3 seconds, you likely need a lot less total distance to counter mage hand.
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I think you'll find if we nerf anything, because people after their first game think it's too strong, there wouldn't be much fun to have in the game.
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Just out of interest, is there anyone that cares about the range-nerf of mage hand? I never saw a you for doing that on that range, I only used it on accident on the wrong palette on the other end of the world xD
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It's a 38 second cooldown and the only consistent chase spell compared to Flight of the Damned. I'd say its current .35 is balanced minus the telekinesis ring.
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This is a bit of a weird argument to me, since it sounds akin to saying 'the counter to being hit is to just not be in range to get hit in the first place.'
Killers are specifically designed to close the distance and (eventually) catch survivors by nature of their role. Pallets, windows and line of sight blockers are the core game mechanics to counteract the inevitability of being caught. The issue here is that pallets, arguably the most important of the three core mechanics, are not only rendered useless, but are a detriment against Vecna's current iteration of Mage Hand since dropping one actually loses you distance. To put things in perspective, the only other killer that gains distance on you when you drop a pallet is Nurse.
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I am aware you are saying 'pre-drop from a distance, and run the loop again.'
The issue with that logic is, if you have the distance to loop it again, why not just loop it again? Why drop the pallet in the first place? Especially since dropping the pallet loses you distance as a survivor, decreasing your likelihood of looping yet against afterwards.
The only way I can see this being sound advice is on God pallets like Shack, or the notorious hallway blocking pallets on Lery's or The Game. With enough pre-drop distance, you may be able to force a break or a bad Mage Hand and gain distance on the killer. However, God pallets are specifically designed to be a free win in the first place. If anything, it is remarkable that Vecna has the ability to completely circumvent God pallets if you do not have the pre-drop distance, as that too was traditionally a right reserved only for Nurse.
And what about every other pallet in the game that is not a God pallet?
If you try pre-dropping the majority of pallets that are not God pallets, the result will be either:
a. The killer side-steps the tile entirely and chases you with no distance gained
b. You camp the tile to try to loop, lose distance camping, it gets lifted/blocked and you get hit
c. You're at a jungle gym and can maybe make some window plays (but that's to the merit of the window, not the pallet)—
There's just no counter-play at a pallet to Mage Hand right now.
If you have the distance to loop again, unless it's a God pallet, there's no point in pre-dropping and you should just be running to preserve what distance you have.
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The issue with that logic is, if you have the distance to loop it again, why not just loop it again? Why drop the pallet in the first place?
because you'll get around loop but killer will lift the pallet shortly after you put it down in front of him where he will hit you 2 second after. Mage hand essentially punishing greeding pallets. You play vs him like you play vs clown. you detach loops nearby in some cases but mostly pre-drop.
The only way I can see this being sound advice is on God pallets like Shack
god pallets are kinda worse for you as the survivor because it takes longer to get back to the pallet. Shack isn't that bad because you can use a window but… it is kinda weird because you'll be in the position where the killer can double back/mindgame. Speaking of which, mage hand is a pallet exclusive power meaning that window looping is pretty effective. If a pallet is short enough, you don't need mage hand to begin with so m1 play is sufficient to get the hit.
There's just no counter-play at a pallet to Mage Hand right now.
I feel like cooldown of 38 second is so long that even if every single mage hand is a hit, you'd get 76 second chases. the reality is that most survivors are likely just dying to m1 Vecna. the summary is that even if you fail counter mage hand, your chase will still be long.
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Did they purposely made Vecna stronger to sell this chapter or is that pure conspiracy theory?Conspiracy theory.
Do you really think people were looking at the timing and duration of mage hand before picking it up?
"0.35! Oh yeah, I'll be totally unstoppable! Wait, no, 0.50, I'm doomed!"
People who were buying the character day of had no concept of how strong he would be. Those who had played the PTB would have avoided him for being weak if they really cared about such things. People see a fun character, they buy the character,
And if BHVR's goal was to get people to buy it and nerf, they would have held off on the nerf for a few months. We had to put up with overpowered, boring Skull Merchant for a lot longer.
He was too weak on PTB, they went too far on his buffs, simple as that.
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because you'll get around loop but killer will lift the pallet shortly after you put it down in front of him where he will hit you 2 second after. Mage hand essentially punishing greeding pallets. You play vs him like you play vs clown. you detach loops nearby in some cases but mostly pre-drop.
Sorry, to clarify, what do you think pre-dropping does that is different?
Yes, if they do not pre-drop, they get hit at the end of the next loop because there is sufficient distance to only make the next loop in this example. If they do pre-drop with sufficient distance however, what changes?
- Does Vecna have to use Mage Hand on the pre-dropped pallet?
- No because, unless it is a God pallet, you're not in range, and they can go around it, so why bother?
- Does Vecna have to break it?
- No, same reasons as above.
- Did you gain any distance pre-dropping?
- Not unless it's a God pallet, since every other pallet can be walked around.
There seems to be a notion that the pre-dropped pallet is helping you in some way here. It is not the pre-dropped pallet that is benefiting you in these examples with sufficient loop distance, it is the fact you have sufficient distance in the first place. The pre-dropped pallet is doing literally nothing for you. The only thing allowing you an extra loop in these examples is because you specifically stated we should pretend there is sufficient distance for another loop.
That is why I said it is an odd argument, because you are saying 'in the event that you win an extra 10 seconds of chase time, you will get an extra 10 seconds of chase time.' That should just be a given. The argument I'm trying to pose is how do you get that distance when the pallet, the main tool used to control chase distance as a survivor, is not able to do its job?
The answer is either use a window, maybe a God pallet with sufficient distance, or you're out of luck.
Regarding Clown and Vecna, the difference between them is that Clown still cannot remove a pallet. You can detach and move between tiles using pre-dropped pallets to create a pseudo-infinite and Clown is forced to either overcome the infinite with bottles or break the pallet, giving you distance to move to the next tile in the latter case. Vecna does not have that restriction, because instead of breaking the pallet causing the pseudo-infinite, he just removes it without delay and hits you before you can detach elsewhere.
god pallets are kinda worse for you as the survivor because it takes longer to get back to the pallet.
Why is it so important to get back to the pallet? He'll just lift it anyway.
Have we been assuming that by pre-dropping the pallet on the first run through, that Vecna used Mage Hand for some reason, allowing us to loop again and force a pallet break on the next loop? Because, unless it's a God pallet, there is absolutely no reason for Vecna to ever Mage Hand a pallet nor break it. He can just walk around it and act like you never put it down in the first place, get closer, and Mage Hand when the distance is closed - just like if you never pre-dropped it at all.
I feel like cooldown of 38 second is so long that even if every single mage hand is a hit, you'd get 76 second chases. the reality is that most survivors are likely just dying to m1 Vecna. the summary is that even if you fail counter mage hand, your chase will still be long.
The cool-down only starts when you use it, so if we're in the scenario that Mage Hand guarantees a hit (which I'd argue is the current case), it becomes MH hit > 38s > MH hit, or simply a 38 second chase, which is not long at all. It would only be 76s if the ability started on cool-down for whatever reason.
4 - Does Vecna have to use Mage Hand on the pre-dropped pallet?
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Idk where Vecna is OP is coming from? He is very bad. Mage hand is the only ability that does anything and even then it’s mid. I’ve 3-4 man outed Vecna so many times it’s crazy.
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I disagree. Vecna's quite a strong killer. Let's look at the balcony god pallet on Ormond as an example. Flight of the Damned can be used as the survivor is dropping the pallet for a guaranteed hit. Mage Hand can prevent the pallet from being thrown, and lift it if it has been thrown. Alternatively, Vecna can use fly to go over the pallet without wasting Mage Hand or having to break the pallet.
Fly is a versatile spell that can be used for traversal, catching up to a survivor in chase, or bypassing pallets/windows.
Flight of the Damned isn't very good for taking off health states, unless you drop it on the survivor or use it while a survivor is mid-animation. The best use for FOTD is for zoning survivors, hitting them mid-animation, or using it behind a LoS blocker.
Dispelling Sphere means you can always locate survivors, and because it's killer instinct rather than aura reading, there's no way to counter it other than avoiding it. It means you don't need to waste a perk slot on an aura reading perk.
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That's just not true. You can create a similar mindgame with Mage Hand as the mindgame with Huntress hatchets. If Vecna is forced to predict when the survivor will throw down the pallet, then a mindgame will occur. But right now Vecna can just react to the pallet drop, which means there is no mindgame.
The upcoming nerf to Mage Hand will force Vecna to use his Mage Hand while the survivor drops the pallet, so he has to predict when survivors will drop the pallet, which will then allow for a mindgame. Vecna will have to predict whether the survivor will drop the pallet or not, and the survivor will have to try and predict whether Vecna will use Mage Hand or not.
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Like literally, I already see people heavily countering this killer. Having to use your dispelling orb just counter 1 guy's magic items is just stupid, especially with how powerful those items can be. Mini army of skeletons fly at you? Just crouch. Pallet held up? Just keep looping it til it wears off in 1.5 seconds. Even the fly spell landing you right next to somebody, where it's like Hillbilly or console Blight, literally just used for distance into neutral set-up anyway, because there's little to no chance of a quick enough follow-up attack. Vecna's already getting 1ks, man. Nerfing him is gonna kill his only chance at viability.
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I still don't like it. He's not gonna have near enough time to catch back up to the survivor after he lifts the pallet. They'll get somewhere safe before then, maybe even the same loop, and then the whole chase resets with a 2nd-use pallet to boot. If they want to make Mage Hand take longer than the other spells to come back, that's fine. But these spells, these killer powers, are supposed to be strong.
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Vecna might be one of the hardest killers to understand from the survivor perspective that it's weird they basically announced nerfs the day after release. You couldn't give players any time to learn to play against the killer.
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Testing
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it's a good change although i think they need to touch his skeletons as well. like not being able to cast them on uneven terrain since it can remove counterplay and just feels and looks wonky.
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No that's not going to happen. If you use Mage Hand while the survivor is throwing down the pallet, picking the pallet up will end in a hit. It's just if you use Mage Hand too late that survivors will get back around the same loop again. You will simply have to predict when survivors will drop the pallet, which allows survivors to have some counterplay.
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TThe Only time range matters on Mage Hand really is for Cloak of Invisibility
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That is just so not true with the basekit pickup nerf and rework of ring Survivor will gain enough distance to be able to make another loop or if shack the window its just a free to survivors to predrop early now not to mention that no attack window after casting MH also people never talk about the other part of MH Holding why? Cause its garbage and nobody uses it. At this point idc anymore just remove pickup and make MH just hold pallets only. enjoy Vecna while hes good and after patch he fades into obscurity and has a pickrate lower then Singularity
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So good Vecna players will always get a free hit this mindgame you boast is not a mindgame at all Vecna just has to use his eyes and cast mh when they drop this is not a mindgame and has no counterplay but a scamper situation
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I mean even then I nearly don't see it, FOTD ks more usefull for that, even tho both should be more or less pointless for that xD
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No because, unless it is a God pallet, you're not in range, and they can go around it, so why bother?
How is this any different for other killers? Why is Vecna a problem doing this while other killers are not? Your complaining that at m1 killer is too strong? It almost like i was right that Vecna are not the problem but survivor's skill-level in looping m1+adapting to the ability is.
Why is it so important to get back to the pallet? He'll just lift it anyway.
If he lifts, the ability does nothing because he didn't get a hit and he goes cooldown for 38 seconds. Ineffective ability.
He can just walk around it and act like you never put it down in the first place, get closer, and Mage Hand when the distance is closed - just like if you never pre-dropped it at all.
You use the pallet as mindgame like any other m1 killer. lifting the pallet still slows him down to survivor m/s. It is not 100% instant-win chase. The killer can still gets hits if you play poorly but main idea is that it extends chase.
The cool-down only starts when you use it, so if we're in the scenario that Mage Hand guarantees a hit (which I'd argue is the current case), it becomes MH hit > 38s > MH hit, or simply a 38 second chase, which is not long at all. It would only be 76s if the ability started on cool-down for whatever reason.
My point being is that chases at lowest 38 seconds if survivor outplays other abilities which aren't particularly hard. In any case, the character already has finalized downgrades.
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Vecna is good but I don’t know if those stats mean much since he just came out and seems like he’s more complicated to play against than play as.
Like Skull Merchant there has the second highest kill rate and Nurse always has the lowest kill rate in the game according to official figures but Skull Merchant obviously isn’t a higher tier killer than Nurse or even near her level.
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Mage hand really is going to be a nightmare to balance. To answer to OP's question, they are nerfing Vecna because there is a balance issue here. Pretty much all the YouTubers I follow were unanimous in recognizing the issue. When there is almost no counterplay then something needed to happen. I think it is disingenuous to assume that this was some marketing ploy to sucker players out of their hard earned money. It is far more likely that the devs tried to listen to players concerns on the PTB and make a change to the ability when making it live only to find out that the pendulum went too far the other way. Which brings me back to my original statement which is mage hand is going to be a nightmare to balance. How is there ever going to be a place where the killer interacting with pallets is useful but not broken? It is going to be very hard to find the sweet spot on this power.
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Has any other killer had a 70% kill rate on release without getting a nerf? doubt it.
hes too strong. people will get used to him eventually and that kill rate will go down, but still, hes too strong.
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agreed devs should seen the balance nightmare of mage hand early on MH is never going to have a middle ground it either guarantees a hit or it dont, OP or useless Vecna bout to get reworked faster then SM
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I find it really funny that it's always either "Killer has been buffed because it was too weak" and "Killer has been overnerfed because survivors haven't learned how to adapt to them yet".
It's never "Killer has been overbuffed before release because people testing them on PTB haven't figured out their kit". That doesn't happen.
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They definitely aren't if you time Mage Hand right. Mage Hand will still be strong, it will just have a bit of counterplay, just like it should.
Also Mage Hand holding pallets is not garbage lmao. If you are close enough to the survivor you can still get free hits with it. But with the upcoming nerf, if survivors have a bit of distance to Vecna, they will now actually be able to mindgame Mage Hand, which is how it's supposed to be.
I know I am going to enjoy Vecna even more after the nerfs because his Mage Hand will feel fair to go against as well.
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it's wild to me people assume this is some nefarious plot from BHVR to increase sales, instead of the much more obvious "figuring out balance for a game that has to account for millions of playstyles across all levels of play is hard and requires constant tweaks"
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