Interloper is a Requirement Against Vecna
Or it’s a free hit against Mage Hand.
Some Vecna had enduring and the Mage Hand went through the stun. Guaranteeing a hit on any loop btw.
It’s hard to say if it’s absolutely broken but I do believe it’s near impossible not to get hit without Interloper, and you’re not guaranteed to get it.
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Yeah Enduring is gonna be a must run on Vecna it's that good
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Way too good.
It was fine on the PTB but now that he doesn’t get no slowdown after using it, you need Interloper’s haste to not get guaranteed hit. I don’t personally like that. It would be okay as a 50/50, but Enduring makes it a lose/lose.
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But what if you just drop the pallet a bit earlier? So that he doesn't get stunned?
Honestly I think Mage Hand still has counterplay, it just depends on how much distance you have to Vecna when you reach the pallet. If you have a bit of distance to him, you can still participate in the Mage Hand mindgame that is similar to a Huntress mindgame. It's only when he is right behind you that he gets a free hit. That is without the interloper item of course. With the interloper item you need less distance to Vecna when reaching the pallet.
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It is definitely still counterable for sure, just harder. In regards to his mindgame when charging it, it is harder as they buffed his slowdown when charging so he loses a lot less distance
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Vecna is everything i expected from changes. ineffective when player knows what he is doing vs every ability and a pub-stomper when the player does not. the difference between ptb and now is that Vecna can punish poor play where as PTB, he could not punish poor play even when survivor made a mistake.
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He doesn’t get slowdown for the pull up either so he can just buffer Mage Hand. It really only works if he’s already super behind you but you’ll never really be that far off so long as he has fly.
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I am not sure what you mean with buffer Mage Hand. Do you mean when he charges up his Mage Hand and holds it?
As far as I can tell, there is still a mindgame possible, as in, if Vecna uses Mage Hand, you do not want to throw down the pallet, and if he doesn't use Mage Hand, that's when you want to throw down the pallet. Because he wants to try and predict your move as well, using Mage Hand while you are throwing down the pallet. But for this mind game you do need a bit of distance to Vecna now, without the interloper item at least.
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Yeah exactly. How much counterplay there is to Mage Hand is yet to be seen in my opinion, but there is some. If it's not quite enough, they can always quickly reduce the movement speed of his Mage Hand cooldown a bit.
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I don't see it. I definitely think he is still effective even if the survivor knows what he is doing, you just have to outplay and outmindgame the survivor.
And with 4 abilities, I would argue his skill floor isn't too low either.
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Buffering by holding it. If he sees you throw it down, Mage Hand it up. If not, put it away.
The problem is if a survivor refuses to throw down a pallet, Vecna will force a loop and THEN Mage Hand. Which means best case scenario is Vecna screws up and you leave for another loop which isn’t likely.
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It is counterable. It is just a proper 50/50.
Either:
- The survivor drops the pallet
- The survivor keeps running
If the survivor drops the pallet, and the vecna guesses right, they land a hit. If they don't, the survivor gets some distance either through a late pickup with mage hand, or breaking the pallet.
If the survivor keeps running, and the vecna guesses right, they continue looping, and get closer to the survivor, maybe landing a hit if the survivor can't make it around the loop. If they guess wrong, they block the pallet, but now the survivor is further away, the vecna is slowed, and the survivor has plenty of time to get around the loop, or to another one.
For something on a 38 second cooldown, a 50/50 seems more than reasonable.
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I think he gets slowed down less, but he still gets slowed down... Just not as drastically as on the PTB.
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The slowdown is so, so minimal. It was like Xeno slowdown when he didn’t get punished for it.
Vecna does not slow down much for pallet pickup. Not for pallet hold either. And none for canceling. In all three scenarios he can close the gap super quickly.
The only scenario this doesn’t apply are the double pallet tile spawn in Greenville Square and Interloper. Again, it’s early to tell, but that seems like the play right now with he’s current speed while using Mage Hand.
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Well yes, that is kind of the mindgame that Mage Hand has, exactly. It just depens on how much distance the survivor has to Vecna when reaching the pallet whether the mindgame still applies or not. If Vecna is close to the survivor, then even blocking the pallet doesn't give the survivor enough distance to Vecna, however, if the survivor already has a bit of distance to Vecna upon reaching the pallet, that's when the mindgame applies.
The question in the end is, is the distance needed for Mage Hand to become a mind game or not ok or too much? If it's too much, they can just nerf the movement speed of Mage Hand's cooldown a bit.
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And when it was like it was on PTB the ability literally did nothing.
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Vecna still had the Enduring stun mind game in PTB. The slowdown still worked with longer loops and especially Shack.
Not every loop that isn’t already unsafe.
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A perk should not be required for the power to function.
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Yeah. I know. Cool. That wasn’t the argument. We’re talking about Mage Hand in general too, you know. Not just Enduring even though it amplifies it.
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That is my point. Mage hand was terrible on PTB, because the slowdown was so much, that if you block a pallet, it was not physically possible to get around fast enough to actually have the pallet blocking be useful. So, they decreased the slowdown (which is still slower than a survivor BTW) just enough so that now you actually have a shot of catching up to them.
Why would you ever use the power to block a pallet, if blocking a pallet means that the survivor gets around the loop and can drop the pallet anyway? The point of blocking the pallet needs to actually be useful to use it.
Part of the counter of this killer is to use items and the fact that spells have a very long cooldown.
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Yeah and you have the other side of the point being that the Mage Hand pallet pickup guarantees a hit since the survivor is slowed down after the pallet drop and can’t make another loop. This is not considering the overkill addon that makes it faster to pickup.
The pallet block was useless. Not the pickup. But now that both have the same speed, there’s nothing a survivor can do if Vecna is already caught up enough to begin using Mage Hand. Which is why Enduring is effective. And to remind you, you don’t even need Enduring, just use Mage Hand close enough without getting stunned and you can get about the same value.
And to be honest, I don’t think the point of the Killer was to pray you got Interloper specifically.
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What's the difference between this and lo pro? Haven't played him yet
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On this, I just wanted to chime in and clarify that it is not intended. Mage Hand is meant to be cancelled if the pallet stuns him before it activates. We'll be fixing this in an upcoming release.
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Okay this makes it better. I still feel like it’s powerful without it but I’ll experiment and see if a change like this makes it more of a 50/50.
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Wraith also have a build that shreds pallets, same story… you get hit.
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Already answered now
The pallet stun thing is a bug. But the point is, the power still allows you to block a pallet. So, that part also needs to be good too.
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But that's the thing. If you think that Vecna will use Mage Hand on you while dropping the pallet, don't drop the pallet. That's the mindgame that people are talking about. You just need a bit of distance to Vecna.
Mage Hand surely still has counterplay, the question is just if it has enough counterplay, based on how much distance you need to have to Vecna. But if not, the devs can easily reduce the movement speed during Mage Hand's cooldown a bit.
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Ah ok well that is the mindgame I am talking about. If you use Mage Hand after the survivor already threw down the pallet, chances are you used it to late. You have to use it while the survivor is throwing down the pallet.
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in my opinion, this killer is just pre-drop pallet and hold-w. it is like playing vs a killer that has enduring spirit fury active the entire game. In term of strength, he looks around xenomorph strength. Little bit above average. has nearly same tools as well. orb for killer instinct vs tunnels, turrets vs his items, mage hand vs xeno tail, tunnels vs his fly move. He has that weird skeleton move but that thing is pointless anyway.
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i think the addons for mage hand eliminate this mind game though so i think the addons needs nerfs
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out of 4 powers mage hand is his only strong offensive power Devs took a hard stand on keeping flights of the damned useless cause you can crouch em for .5sec. FLY is not good mobility tool and orb is just lowtier detection
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im fine with this Killer gets a free hit every 40 sec without a magic item, with the boots you get enough haste to run to another tile. Ptb magic items were just a "win harder" you didn't need any of them to easily beat Vecna now survivors have to get the appropriate gear (boots) to counter his one good power
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fly and orb are decent. Vecna is a killer that punishes greeding. Both flight of the damned and Mage hand are abilities that punish you for greeding. vs m1 killers, the general gameplay is to go around loop as many times as possible and drop the pallet at very last second. With Vecna, the gameplay is all about being far enough ahead of him. I think people are playing against him as if he is m1 by over greeding and then getting punished for greeding.
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You are right. Boots of Speed in particular need to be reworked in my opinion. Or at least nerfed noticeably.
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I'd say just rework BOS it to give a buff to Fly duration or Fly velocity cause I think fly needs more mobility
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Agree!
Bodyblocking with flight is the hardest for me to perform right now. What I mean is flying in front of the survivor and blocking the window or pallet that they wanted to use.
Skeletons seem tricky to use as well and mage hand heavily involves mindgames from both sides.
The orb is also not bad and provides a good amount of info.
All around I would put him in bottom A / top B.
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The only problem here is that it looks like they want to have one addon of a certain rarity for each spell. And Boots of Speed is the green addon for Mage Hand. But in general I would agree.
I also wouldn't mind if Mage Hand got a small basekit nerf though, have to say,
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hmm Idk i think mage hand might be right in the middle of its only sort of perfect balance it could attain this could be another scamper situation do we just remove the pickup and make it only hold? Kinda a sad option cause theres finally a counter to predrop andys any sort of buff or nerf would either make it useless or op
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Hey folks, now that we've had some time to see it play out and think it over, I wanted to give a quick update. The current plan is to make some changes to Mage Hand in one of our upcoming minor patches.
We'll be slightly reducing Mage Hand's range to 14m (was 16m)EDIT: This one is no longer planned.- We're reverting the pallet lift time to 0.5s (was 0.35s) - this is the same as the PTB version.
We'll also be reworking the Ring of Telekenesis add-on (which currently causes Mage Hand to pick up pallets quicker) to have a different effect since this turned out to be a very risky number to mess with.
And lastly, as a quick reminder, we'll be fixing a bug which caused Mage Hand to continue picking up a pallet after it stuns you (the stun will correctly cancel Mage Hand), so combining it with Enduring will no longer be an issue.
Keep an eye out for patch notes in case anything changes.
Post edited by Peanits on9 -
That kinda sucks. Not really a fan of that change. Is anything planned for Flight of the Damned?
Also, what will Ring of Telekinesis be reworked into?
Thanks for the update regardless :3
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I mean the range required does not really matter, as you are close by when you use it anyway... I'm not sure about the duration change... I heard players say that a longer duration is OK, because it also blocks the re drop longer or something like that, but I don't really know if that is really an argument to be made.
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Can we expect any changes to any of his other powers?
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I think this is fine as the block remains untouched and it makes it a true 50/50.
But please do consider that Vecna’s other powers are underwhelming. Flight of the Damned needs some sort of work done. Even making just one of the Skeletons closer to the ground is sufficient considering the small hitbox. Fly is already fine as a chase tool but needs more speed for out of chase mobility. Dispel Sphere is much better, but Vecna doesn’t need to be slowed using it and have his camera locked. Ideally, also give it another utility. Am I sure what to add to it? No. But it feels like it needs something once you shot it out.
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The problem with this nerf is that it does nothing against blocking pallets, which is arguably also still a bit too strong, granting too many free hits at loops just for blocking the pallet. Especially with the addon Boots of Speed.
I really think the pallet pick up time is fine, and the nerf that Vecna's Mage Hand needs is a small movement speed reduction to the Mage Hand post-cast cooldown.
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Yeah, fix (nerf) and nerf in same patch… We have seen this before.
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"Sorry killer players. Survivors don't want to learn how to counter play, so instead of giving the issue time to breathe, we're going to nerf the best part of your kit and in return we will buff nothing."
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Can you not? It hasn't even been a week yet. Let the playerbase have some time to discover how to play against him. It actually isn't even that hard. All they would have to do is learn to not pre-drop or camp pallets.
We already saw what that looked like in the PTB. It made Mage Hand totally useless.
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Post edited by Bauta on0
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I think it's a little bit too harsh, because players can't fully understand for this period of time how to correctly play against this killer, but pretty okay change overall. If this go to live, pls considering to change interaction for survivor after pick up. When Vecna picking up the pallet with hand, if survivor have a good ping, he can immediately drop it on Vecna head. I think its not fair and this too strong counterplay.
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They shouldn't nerf the slowdown back to how it was on the ptb obviously, in my opinion the movement speed of Mage Hand's cooldown would only need a very small reduction and that's it. But I guess the nerf Mage Hand is getting is ok as well.
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"had some time"??? Can we maybe wait a bit longer than 3 days before we nerf and rework stuff?
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