Hook Respawn - Why are players already complaining?
Seriously, can someone that shares the opinion of it being too strong or unbalanced please let me know their reasoning? I've seen many claims that this change will increase tunneling and camping rates which I think is really a ludicrous reach.
Also, I have seen people compare hook breaks to survivors 3 genning themselves which I think is not comparable at all for the following reasons: 1) A killer is unable to choose where the survivor wants to get downed, if they want to go to a corner of the map with only 1 hook you cant as a killer stop them. As opposed to 3 gens, which can be identified and broken by the survivors earlier, + the anti - 3 gen mechanic is in the game. 2) Hooking is not meant to be an extremely complicated mechanic to the point where you have to spontaneously plan out which areas have 1 (broken) hook due to them being in the corners and just slug the survivor for 4 minutes.
Furthermore, I really do not understand the claim that this change will lower the killer skill floor, it is not like hooks respawning give you free kills, a killer player still needs to chase, down, and get to a hook (avoiding anti-hook perks or strats) in order to get a hook. Claiming that there is a significant macro skill element to 'spreading' out your hook locations is a bit ridiculous considering the layout and hook spawns of most maps means that often times you only have 1 hook you can realistically make it to if a survivor gets downed in a certain position.
This change is extremely good for improving the quality of life and reducing the amount of frustrating slugging situations due to the conjunction of bad map layout and bad hook spawns. This change will probably have an impact in like 1/20 games.
Comments
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Honest question, are you new? This playerbase does nothing but complain
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No, I have been playing dbd since 2018, I know they complain about everything balance related. I thought this change would be different for some reason given it has basically little to no effect on gameplay and balance, so I am just a bit surprised that people are even complaining about a change as innocent as this XD.
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Your claim of it not being comparable to 3 genning is wrong. That simple claim destroys your entire post. Survivors running killers into dead zones isn't a new concept by any means good killers realize that players do this so other players can work on gens in the area your currently patrolling. Your your job as killers to break chases or prioritize targets when end game gets close.
It's understandable why you would want respawning hooks it would make playing killer easier to justify this fact you made a essay to explain why it should be easier for killers is wild
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Honesty, with how hooks spawn at the moment perks like saboteur, flip flop, buckle up and boil over are completely useless. Adding a hook back in just adds to this - especially if it's a hook a killer has over used for its location or because it's a scourge hook. I think hooks needed a way bigger review but this isn't it.
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There is absolutely no "skill expression" by "managing your hooks", you just hook someone to the closest one or to the closest scourge one, like everybody does and alwas have done.
But some survivors love to go to hook dead zone and going down, knowing they will be unhookable. Then they get slugged, then they complain about slugging being unhealthy
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Most of the time it is up to the Killer if they created a Deadzone when it comes to Hooks. So yes, there is some form of skill expression, even if it is low. But not every Killer realizes that there is only one Hook in an area and still use that Hook instead of taking a few seconds to carry the Survivor closer to the middle of the Map.
However, I think that the Devs could have better solved it with reducing Hook RNG. Having 1 Hook in an area and then 3 Hooks in the next area (which are easily campable) is not good. Then there should be 2 Hooks in each area. So a reduction of RNG would have been the more elegant solution.
But overall, not opposed to the change, Hook Deadzones were rare anyway and getting hooked is still better than having to bleedout.
(Now, if they just can remove Hooks which spawn upstairs and add Hooks Downstars in the same area…)
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The only thing non-respawning hooks do is create deadzones where you literally can't hook survivors from. That's not fun for anyone since the killer is just forced to slug and survivors HATE getting slugged. I don't really know why anyone would be against this change as it's much healthier for the game on both sides.
Same reason I think Breakdown should be changed.
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I think your idea would not really fix the problem unfortunately because it would still be possible for a killer to have no choice but to sacrifice 2 survivors on the only 2 hooks in an area, which would then create the same issue.
Respawning hooks is a pretty safe way to prevent this. I agree though, that there shouldn't be 3 hooks right next to each other. It's fine if there are multiple hooks in reach when the killer picks up (after all, they have little control where the chase ends) but these severe camping spots definitely aren't healthy and on some maps the killer is encouraged to use that (RPD being one of the worst offenders).
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So if a survivor goes to a deadzone with no hooks due to them being broken by sacrifices, if I do not break chase due to the wild reason that there are no hooks nearby I am considered a bad killer player because there are no hooks in that area due to poor map design? What happens when every player does the same? Your reasoning of breaking chase due to survivors going to unhookable areas as a result of broken hooks is an issue of game design not of killer skill.
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I agree that in some situations you could hook more centrally, which is also beneficial for a killer as they can more easily manage paths to the hook. The issue is when a survivor goes down in a CORNER of a map and there is only ONE possible hooking location from the spot when they went down, meaning that if you sacrifice a person on that hook after they get downed in that corner and then another survivor later in the match gets downed in that corner aswell (with the broken hook) it means they are essentially unhookable, at no fault of the killer player.
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tbh I’m not crazy about the change. I personally really enjoy when playing killer that in some games I have to be conscious about where I death hook survivors, because I may create a dead zone. Say, if I did make a dead zone and the survivors use it to their advantage then that is on me, not the survivors. I also feel like if it was ever felt like dire issue to me than I’d run perks like iron grasp, but I’ve never felt it was truly an issue. I’ve always kind of enjoyed that specific aspect of the gameplay, but I understand why they’re doing this. So, in the long term I think it is probably going to be a very positive change for the game. Now, I’m not sure if 60 seconds is a long enough timeframe for the hooks to regenerate but we’ll see in the PTB
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Hooks break = survivors running to those deadzones = more time for the killer to put the survivor on a hook = more time for teammates to do objectives
Thats just a single example
There are many4 -
The same people complaining about this change are probably the same people that thought RPD's 3rd floor was fine tbh. They just want situations where hooking is impossible.
This is one of the healthiest changes BHVR has ever done and will make maps like midwich, swamp and the game feel better to play on and will end unnecessary slugging in a lot of cases.
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I like this change
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Y'know what? Yes. The best killers know not to commit to fruitless chases. They don't chase a survivor into a dead zone. They don't waste time chasing the clicky clicky lithe megs. Knowing when to let a person go is just as important in a killer's skill set as anything else. If you do commit to those chases, you wasted your own time. You got baited into losing gens and hooks. Pay attention to your surroundings.
You=anyone playing killer.
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Yes, TRUE skill is dropping chase and simply not downing survivors! That way, you'd never have the chance to hook them, so there being hook deadzones isn't a problem anyway!
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Boil Over needs a change, too. There's no activation requirement, there's no way to deactivate it, it just always works. I get stuck on the environment sometimes due to normal wiggling, so when I pick up someone with Boil Over, I often sigh and say "Whatever" and bleed them out. That's fine that they want to bleed out, but it's rather tedious for me, bleeding people out is tedious, and that's not what I play video games to do.
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It's knowing WHEN to drop chase. . .
Not every chase needs to have commitment. Not every chase is supposed to end in a hook or a slug full stop. This is crazy.4 -
It should not be possible for survivors to create a situation where it is physically impossible to hook them because they run to a specific area of the map. Full stop.
And i say this as "both sides" because if you do this, you'd rather sit there and bleed out for 4 minutes instead of the killer just hooking you?
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True skill is knowing the difference between a worthwhile chase and a bait. Knowing when to go apply pressure to the gens instead of chasing any survivor you see. Where did the attitude that every chase is supposed to end in a hook come from? Is hooking the end goal? Sure, but is it the only way to play, not by a long shot.
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Yeah that's not what I'm saying. You realize survivors control where a chase is going, right? If they run to a hook deadzone every time you try to pressure them off a generator, you're going to have to slug—or as you suggest, not even that. I'm not talking about survivors running around not doing objectives being bad chases to take, I'm talking about survivors who recognize a hook deadzone and lead every chase they can there.
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You realize survivors control where a chase is going, right?
This has to be a joke. This is only true if the killer is a bot that follows the survivor's exact path and kicks pallets on cool down.
You should look up a zoning guide for killer if you truly believe this. Zoning the survivor to cut off certain avenues for them to run is literally killer 101.
And as for dropping chase, if you leave a survivor to run themselves into a dead zone, that's a survivor not on gens while you can go for someone actually contributing to gens.
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They love forcing killers to use bleed out, but they hate being bleed out
Humans are strange creature
You have two health state and you can just shrug off one hit, rush straight to deadzones
It's more like "that is only true if the survivor is a bot that stays exact opposite of killers", SURVIVORS choose where to move, when to get hit, when to run, and ultimately where to down
Killers NEVER have any control over where survivor goes, survivors can stop running and die in front of killer, survivor can dash into killer and go opposite side, and if survivor decide to abuse deadzone, there is extremely large distance they can run straight to it
Your post reads is as if you don't know there is a human controlling survivors, but the fact is pretty much all of survivors are controlled by humans
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I get what they mean with zoning, but its both character and tile specific. In many cases, zoning is either ineffective or minimally effective against a survivor who understands tiles and knows where they want to go. That said, there are often many times (especially with ranged killers or anti-loop killers) where they can corral the survivor in a particular direction (especially when already wounded) or force them to go down early.
Against a killer like ghostface or myers at strong tiles that link easily into other tiles though? not so much.
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- Nearly all maps have 2 hooks easily available from corners now, and 5+ hooks possible from most locations
- You are right, it shouldn't be a complicated mechanic. Good thing it isn't, if you kill Survivor they kill the hook. Super simple.
Attrition is a mechanic suffered by both sides. Killers have gens and hooks, Survivors have hook states (most comparable to gens), breakable walls, and pallets (both of these most related to hooks). I honestly think auto-replacing hooks is the equivalent of auto-replacing pallets, so in general, a bad idea. I know this might reduce some bleedouts, but I've recorded Killers staring at me under a hook and still refusing to pick up, so the deplorable people who frequently bleedout are jerks to their core.
Hook removal provides a disincentive for tunneling and camping. If a Killer tunnels someone out, they lack that hook in the area, which slightly impacts their ability to win. If a Killer is camping, that area is a little less defensible if they have to go to a further hook. This was especially bad back when PR worked on every hook, and you could camp into hook trades on the same Scourge hook over and over.
I think this is a bad change individually, but it probably will help baby/average Killers (which constitute 75% of the playerbase), more than it hurts the integrity of the long MMR games (top 25%). Because of that, I'm fine with this change even though I think it is bad. Anyone who previously was resting their laurels on "don't remove skill expression" should be morally opposed to this change, otherwise they prove themselves to be a liar instead. So I guess that's a good unexpected consequence, it will reveal the bad actors also.
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to be honest, i'm a killer-leaning player but i'm very indifferent to this change. thinking about hook breaks in advance like not using hooks near gates was kinda fun and strategic, and people knew they will get bled out if they crawled to a hook dead zone so hook breaks barely was an issue. if anything this makes clutch moments rarer and not a fan of that.
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Apparently we've hit the point where zoning survivors is so foreign a concept that people are claiming to be completely helpless. If you think you have no choice but to just follow the survivor, you're not just wrong, you need to take a killer 101 class.
There's a big difference between zoning and what you seem to think I'm saying. The killer doesn't have a remote control over the survivor to point where they go, I never said that.
But you seem insistant that the killer is somehow helpless to just go where the survivor wants. That's not true either, and that's entirely my point here.
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My assumption is that people who like Boil Over are whining that they cannot abuse bad hook RNG as easily anymore
Aside from that, I can't think of a good reason to complain, this is a universally good change
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Except hooks are the only way for the killer to progress their gameplay, pallets are not THE way survivors progress their gameplay objectives, they help them in achieving this but are not the pivotal part of it as a survivor team can escape without using a single pallet but a killer cannot sacrifice without hooks. Hooking is the only thing killers can do to progress their win condition, so comparing this with pallets is not an appropriate comparison, also hooks by themselves do nothing to affect gameplay, they are only used when the killer has already chased, downed and picked up a survivor.
Also, I really disagree with the claim that all maps have 2 hooks easily reachable from a corner, there are many maps that I have played on that have only 1 hook in a corner as a result of a hill and the basement spawining within close proximity, a good example of this is in the Crotus Penn Asylum realm. There is also the case of Badham, mothers Dwelling and others I cannot recall. This change is necessary to address bad map and hook layouts. Granted it is a 'bandaid fix' but I would much rather have this than have to wait 5 years for them to individually address the problematic maps.
Do you seriously believe this change will lead to more tunneling? Please explain, because I would tell you that every person that tunnels would laugh at the suggestion that the 'hook destruction upon sacrifice' mechanic deters them and makes them thoroughly think before tunneling due to the punishment it can have.
This change is really not that big of a deal, it is not like it provides immense free value for killer like an automatic down, as opposed to your comparison of respawning pallets which essentially provides free chase time extensions for no input from a survivor. A respawning pallet mechanic could work if survivors had to waste time in order to 'respawn' it, like a rebuild action, this would be the equivalent of a killer needing to chase and get a down to then make use of the hook.
Also, ofcourse people that want to slug will still do it, but this mechanic just minimises the situation where a killer is stuck in a situation where the last survivor just constantly runs to a corner of the map knowing the nearest hook is destroyed out of spite and wants to waste the killer's time for winning the match.
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That is not the point I am arguing, ofcourse dropping chase is a CRITICAL skill for killers to learn in order to improve, im referring to the following:
The situation where a killer is stuck in a situation where the last survivor just constantly runs to a corner of the map knowing the only reachable hook is destroyed out of spite and wants to waste the killer's time for winning the match.Obviously if there are multiple survivors alive it is pointless to commit to the chase of the survivor that takes you to the unhookable zone and instead try to down the others, but the problem is when the last survivor does this constantly and you MUST wait 4 mins/EGC if hatched is closed.
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I'm a 60/40 killer/survivor player since 2016 and this change is braindead. It WILL lower the skill floor, there isn't any other objective way of looking at it. Hook management is just as much a part of macro as generator management.
I've played thousands of hours of both killer and survivor, and out of the thousands of games there has been very few where a survivor has had to be bled out because they ran to a deadzone. Does it happen? Yes. Is it worse when they have perks that go with it? Yes. Do I care? No, because they used their perk slots to give them THAT ADVANTAGE.
When I pick up, I always look around to plan my hooks. Where do I want them? Is it defensible? Can I zone them after rescue? If they die will this cause a deadzone? Planning is a huge part of the game, and is something more to think about than just "me chase survivor, me down survivor, me hook survivor".
I get it though, many players don't want to have to think when they play the game. They don't want to think about whether a chase is bad, they don't want to think about what areas to chase in, they don't want to think about where to hook a survivor.
There is no doubt that the skill ceiling of the entire game has been lowered over the years. There are consistent removal of techs, there are consistent removal of game mechanics, and there are now consistent removal of meaningful choices.
Chasing a more skilled player? No worries, you get Bloodlust.
Getting run at shack? No worries the window will block.
Survivors running into a deadzone?…What deadzone?
So I reiterate, playing killer now is actually braindead.
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- Complaining about bloodlust in 2024 is crazy, if you loop a killer for 35 seconds only for them to then get a single health state you already have a cumulative 116% total gen progress (35s *3), not to mention only WEAK M1 killers utilize blood lust to any degree. If a killer relies on bloodlust for every chase they WILL LOSE the game unless the survivors straight up do not do gens for an insane amount of time.
- No way you think windows should not block? It is VERY hypocritical how you say bloodlust is braindead but want windows to not block after a certain amount of vault attempts considering there are many god windows that the only most effective counterplay is to force the block. Windows not blocking also only punishes the very weak killers since a nurse nor a blight will care about vaults since they can easily catch up, but a freddy or myers? Kind of crazy how you have played since 2016 so you know about the infinites that existed due to this mechanic not being implemented, yet you claim it is braindead for an anti-infinite mechanic?
- What "deadzone"? Seriously what do you mean by this? If you mean a hooking deadzone then thats problematic game design, there SHOULD NOT be a specific area in maps where a survivor can get downed which prevents the killer from hooking them when they are not using any anti-hooking perks.
Post edited by JocelynAwakens on1 -
There's aot of discourse here over a change that'll hardly ever matter imo. It just means a neat atmosphere part of the game is gone while also ensuring killers won't have to deal with certain survs running straight into dead zones the moment they get in chase.
An eye for an eye, so I have no real sway.
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Paragraph 1 Reply - Basekit there are 2 ways to kill Survivors, Bleedouts and hooks. Bleedouts are not enjoyable, but a Kobe equivalent option on the ground is the solution to that problem. But if you want to swap the standard to gens, the only way to progress the objective (which Survivor truly only has 1 way), then gens should be 're-completeable' after the 240s, while still counting towards the total gens completed. Then we can remove the 3-gen regression limit also.
Paragraph 2 Reply - Maybe we have different definitions of 'easily reachable', so I'll lay out my definition here. "Easily reachable" is a hook that you can head towards, but still have time to redirect to another hook in time to reach, or safely drop the Survivor to the Dying stage (not injured). That may mean you can 'easily reach' 4 hooks in the majority of cases. Every case I've had of basement interrupting normal hook spawns due to a hook deadzone (that I could hook a Surv on), I've been able to reach basement itself in time. Long lines do appear to be the exception to this rule (like both sides of Killer shack on the Asylum), but still means you can reach 2 hooks at minimum. If I used those 2 hooks, and the 3rd Surv would rather bleedout in the corner than let me hook them, they made that choice.
Paragraph 3 Reply - Does a speedbump prevent speeding? Well at the very least speedbumps deters speeding. Hook death is a speedbump against tunneling, and removing a speedbump increases the chance that someone will speed through the area, thus increasing the chance that someone will tunnel in the right circumstances. It slightly impacts the Killers ability to kill the remaining Survivors as a result of tunneling. With that slight disincentive removed, it stands to follow that tunneling will increase (by however slightly it may be). (Tunnel section of this post pasted here, if it seems like context is missing, check the original post)
For tunneling, it penalizes early kills because a tool is permanently
lost. If I tunnel someone and put them on a Scourge hook, I lose one of
my 4 valuable hooks to get my PR/Floods/GoP/etc. on. If I delete a hook,
I give the remaining 3v1 the slightest bit of a better chance than a
drawn-out loss for Survivor, that it basically is in any match with a
Killer who has a modicum of skill, with more than 1 gen remaining.Paragraph 4 Reply - This is kind of my point, if it is not a big deal, then NOT making the change is also not a big deal. I'm not even advocating for not putting the change through. I think the bottom 75% of players having this change is a far better thing than what is lost for the top 25% of players. Anyone wanting skill expression to not be removed should be crying against this change, and if they don't, then in the next discussion with familiar names I'll know they are only wanting tribal changes, not good changes. If an action should be required for repairs, shouldn't both sides have to engage in such an action for the repairs (with a default 4-1 ratio, possible shorter time for Killer since travel time is also a consideration)? Why should a theoretical Killer auto-repair be baked into chase, and not Survivors (even if at the 4-1 ratio)?
Paragraph 5 Reply - That's fair to want to prevent Killer having to suffer a spite bleedout. I think no one should have to suffer a spite bleedout. Give Survivors a Kobe equivalent to die quicker on the ground, or the means to report Killers intentionally spite bleedouting the Survivor. The Kobe bleedout would be a safer option and not have to jump through a bunch of hoops. Also I've had strange pushback against bans for spite bleedouts, even when the standard of evidence is video proof of AFK crows under a hook. That just makes me think anyone against bans for spite bleedouts wants to continue to spite bleedout, because they don't come up with ways to prevent false reports and add on to the idea, they just say "no because X might happen".
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You're right about one thing. The crazy macro play that's expected of killers over this topic is just insane. It's not necessary. I make the same argument when I was in favor of DS having a bigger skill check, or activating automatically: You're shoehorning skill into an action where there shouldn't be any. It's like asking survivors to hit skill checks to cleanse at Plague fountains, or cryptic crap like remembering the position of Myers's hand to play around Tombstone.
Killers avoiding split maps has nothing to do with knowing where exactly they need to hook a survivor, which is subjective. Y'all are using "map knowledge" and "match awareness" as a vague umbrella term so that you can include hooks in that. But survivors can see what hooks each other are on. If you started spectating someone in the middle of their killer match, and you saw they had whatever amount of hooks, could you tell which survivors were on what hook? No, and the killer can't always remember either, especially with same-outfit players. Let the killer have the same access to information on hooks that the survivors have, and then we can argue that route. But right now, that line of thinking has nothing to stand on because it's an entirely unequal situation. You're asking survivors to remember a color, and asking the killer to remember a complex equation.
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Just make remote hooking from the event part of the killer basekit, then hooks don't have to respawn.
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The situation where a survivor is stuck in a situation where the killer just constantly slugs to bleed out out of spite and wants to waste the survivor's time for having the audacity to actually have a chance at hatch.0 -
"The crazy macro", as in the minimal thought you need to put in about which hook to walk to? There isn't any shoehorning here. This is how it has been since 2016. The required skill was always there, yet people can't be bothered to activate their neurons.
"Let the killers have the same access to information on hooks that the survivors have". Not sure what you are getting at here. Killers can see hooks when hooking, and can see survivors on hooks when they are hooked…
Finally, trust me, there are no "complex equations" here. This isn't complex number integrals. It is simply looking at a hook and thinking about whether it is a good place to hook.
Anyway, it is what it is going to be. I've never had a memorable problem with hook management as a killer in my thousands of hours. Although, as someone who has seen survivor gameplay become more and more miserable, I am playing killer WAY more now. So, looking at the upside of the change from a killer mindset, I can see why people are happy. This change will allow me to tunnel people out in the corner of the map, and then tunnel the next person out in that same corner. 😎👍️
Post edited by JocelynAwakens on3 -
The hook respawn is an unnecessary change. Hook dead zoning is a good strategy if you know how to actually utilize it properly. It's a very rarely done strategy. Now with the whole 1 min respawn, it nulls the reason to even go for hook dead zoning. Makes gameplay less uninteresting and more braindead without using any unique strategies.
Post edited by JocelynAwakens on1 -
There's already too many hooks that are close together. There's no need to have them respawn. As it is, wiggling off is near impossible.
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I like the change, but seems like many players like to bleed out, so whenever someone tries to crawl into corner, I can just bleed them out anyway.
Wouldn't want to use "unfair" feature :D
In most games, it ended with kill anyway, in my over 2k hours, I had like three games where survivors got to escape because of bad hook spawns, everyone else ended with bleed out.
So it doesn't change results, just save time for everyone.
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