Will you also rework killer sided maps for once or only survivor sided ones?
I personally got no problem with Hawkins and Midwich, but the new map is very unfun as survivor, same goes for haddonfield and rancid. Garden of joy and stattered square are very unfun to play on as survivor after their reworks. The temple map from plague is also extremely killer sided and unfun.
The map is the key element, which decides wether you win or loose. On maps like haddonfield, rancid and the new map you can only win if the killer plays bad/chill or gives you the win.
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Killers at the very least got perks to help them with maps, but survivors have nothing like that. There is no pallet/ window creating perk, which would be the opposite of Bamboozle or spirit fury.
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Garden of Joy is still really strong, do you seriously consider it to be killer sided?
Shelter woods got buffed to be a bit more on the survivor side than before, so to say only survivor sided maps get changed is just wrong.
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Since I started playing one year ago there hasn’t been one positive map change for survivors.
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bhvr will probably refrain from changing indoor maps to satisfy the "wholesome jumpscare" crowd unfortunately, I really wish they would tho
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I like all indoor maps, they are my favorite type of map and very cool. I think Midwich, Gideon and Hawkins are all fair even tho they all favor one side a bit more than the other. Larry‘s is not really favoring on side in my opinion.
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OK, which maps do you think are that killer sided that they need changes?
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Gideon??? 25+ god pallets is supposed to be fine???
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I wrote them above. I think they were very obvious.
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Yes, if you don‘t play it stupidly and don‘t overchase survivors. Many killers really shine on this map: Nemesis, Huntress…
Once the main pallets are gone survivors got nothing and it isn‘t too difficult to archive that.
You should go there as pig with enduring and spirit fury for once. You will see this map with other eyes.
This map is actually killer sided if you know how to play it.
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I mean sure, there are some killers that can deal with the map, but most just need to break 15 pallets before they can start to even play the map, and that is just terrible design… The mix should always be strong tiles and weak ones, and hawkins and gideon just fail massively on that scale, because one has almost exclusively really strong tiles and the other one is the exact opposite, with the exception of a real infinite in the portal room…
Enduring Spirit fury is a waste on that map, people can just pre drop the pallets and force me to kick them, so I have two perk slots less now. The map is terrible. What do you even mean by main pallets? There are around 30 pallets on this map, and because of its size they are fairly easily accessable, even by playing hit and run you waste so much time to get rid of some of them, the gameplay on this map just sucks.
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…Okay, but your problem about claiming that this map is killer sided is that every example you used is either a killer that ignores/hits over pallets, or a killer with a build to negate pallet stuns and break pallets. So of course Pallet Town is very favorable in those conditions. If the survivors bring The Game and I happened to be running Bubba or Nemesis or Spirit Fury/Enduring/Hubris or Impossible Skillcheck Doctor, yeah, I'm laughing to myself because they just played themselves.
But the killer can't choose what their build is by the time a map is loaded. And your average M1 killer with an average build is beyond screwed there unless the survivors are potatoes. Try playing Pig there without Spirit Fury/Enduring and come back and tell me it's still killer-sided.
Like… by that logic, Midwich is survivor sided because I'm playing Artist and can't check gens on both floors at once, and then I have to walk across the map to be in a position to check the other floor. Obviously that's complete nonsense, because most killers are playing in extremely favorable conditions in Midwich and it's disingenuous for me to cherrypick an example where its compact build doesn't help me.
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they'd be more cool if they didn't remove 99% of skill expression from stealth killers
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It‘s still a fair map. Easy to travers, easy to find people and a lot of pallets. You only need to get some pallets out of the way fast and you got a easy match. The dumbest thing you can do on this map is trying to mind game, but once you realize this, it‘s ezzz.
Those examples just make this map extremely easy. Onryo/Trapper/hag/legion/clown and stealth killers have a good time on this map. After looking the at all killers we got, most of them actually have a good time on this map. The thing in current dbd is just; killers expect maps to be like haddonfield.
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Yeah, except there are 3 super Killer sided maps, and 6 super survivor sided maps.
Actually, I'll just reference Otzdarva's website for good measure:
You see the imbalance in the amounts?
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So if we, for the sake of it, ignore the part where we disagree about the map being not survivor sides because it is loaded with god pallets… Is it good design to have almost exclusively non mindgameable loops that you just need to walk around until the pallet gets dropped and then leave? Even then it is still a completely stupid map.
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I mean to be fair that is quite old and not really up to date… However I would like to add that dead dawg saloon is only killer sided if you decide to never go to main building but just secure the 3 gen in the outskirts..
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All maps should be survivor sided or nothing sided, but killer sided maps should not exist at all. Survivor can‘t do anything on killer sided maps except of hoping that the killer gives them the win, is bad or plays chil.
Survivors also don‘t have anything to deal with bad maps unlike killers.
Then you can‘t continue buffing killers while nerfing maps. Thisway you overbuff killers. If that continues most people will stop playing as soon as behavior goes too far with this.
What I find funny that even this shows that Gideon is killer sided. Thanks for that one.
This list is extremely outdated by the way!! It‘s from two years ago or at least 1 and a half years ago and much changed since then. Funny.😂😂😂😂
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Probably because Bamboozle and Spirit Fury have conditional effects that make them counterable.
- Spirit Fury is useless if the Survivors pre-drop a pallet (and it requires Enduring to actually be good, which means you are using 2 out of your 4 perk slots.
- Bamboozle only affects 1 window for a limited amount of time, and is just countered by leaving the loop or playing the pallet instead of the window.
A perk to just outright "create" a structure would be busted.
- The game is not designed around creating windows out of thin air, and it could easily lead to infinite loops being created. Plus windows are infinitely reusable, there is not risk of the Killer removing that structure for the rest of the game… surely it is not hard to see how this would be busted?
- Pallet creation would also be insanely strong, it would fundamentally change everything about resource management. Any Means Necessary is the closest we will ever get to that just because it is balanced around the idea that the resource can still be outright removed.
It entirely has to do with DBD's fundamental design direction.
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Most of the maps remain unchanged, the list shifts barely if at all. Badham 1-5 still are absolutely a nightmare for killers.
And no, there's no "side" maps should have. They should be balanced.
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I like this map, so obliviously I will find it good. I don‘t think it‘s bad gameplay honestly, I like challenges as killer and I like looping on both sides. So why should I dislike this map? Shure it can be frustrating at times, but this map is fair and brings this game some fresh air by being different. I don‘t want maps to play all the same or be unfair.
When we look at the cinema map (that only got trash pallets) even Hawkins looks great. I really dislike how they treat maps recently. Since I started playing all they did was shrinking maps, removing a lot of windows and pallets, buffing killers (mostly) and nerfing survivors.
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They should be survivor sided or nothing sided, but never killer sided. Killers got all they need to deal with maps like badham. Badham is a very fair map, but most killers expect everything to be a easy win button for them, not to be actually fair (haddonfield…).
Most of the maps remain unchanged
That‘s simply not true.
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If you like looping, then why do you like Gideons? You are not looping on this map, you are not mind gaming or greeding pallets you safe drop every single pallet, because there is no reason not to do that, there are just so many of them, there is no reason to be ressourcefull and greed, there is no hiding your light as killer or moon walking, most of the pallets on this map have high visibility so you just see the killer all the time… All that combined is another reason why this map is absolute dog water, there is not much gameplay, it just kick pallet go next, unless the survivor is an absolute baby you will never outplay a loop on this map as m1 killer, I cannot take people serious who tell me this map is fair… There are even several occassion where even with spirit fury you still wont get the hit because the next pallet is just that close, the map is absolute garbage, and even from a visual standpoint it is basically just a container level, lowest of low efforts.
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"Bedham is a very fair map."
Ok, you just lost the rest of the little credibility you had by calling that map fair… Either we have completely different understandings of what fair means or your perception is off… So again explain me how a map with up to 5 connected pallets to shack, 4 strong buildings and around 18-25 mostly safe pallets is fair :D:D
As for most maps remain unchanged, that is indeed true… What is even your point here? Since they updated the maps some years ago they barely touched them.5 -
Bamboozle only affects 1 window for a limited amount of time, and is just countered by leaving the loop or playing the pallet instead of the window.
Most maps don’t have enough loops to just leave and go to the next one nowadays.
I just wanted to make clear with this, that survivors have no way to deal with bad maps, while killers can. I just took the first idea I could think about the opposite purpose.But I think it could work. There could be blocked windows at the start of the match, which can be opened by perks or some type of new item or something else like a basekit mechanic. Rebuilding pallets could also work as some form of slowdown for the killer, where you need to collect something or do something for it either with a perk or basekit. Both things would be needed to be implemented fair and carefully by behavior, but I don‘t think they would ever take the risk of testing something like that.
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And Id argue that Exhaustion perks do help with awful map RNG.
Sprint Burst can help you get out of a deadzone, and is especially helpful on maps where Generators are located in deadzones. Balanced Landing can make a lot of loops that were not playable into more playable loops (e.g. Coldwind Harvester). And this is just to name a few examples.
Likewise Stealth Perks can help with outright preventing a chase, which can be extremely helpful on maps with awful RNG since avoiding chases can preserve resources for you and your team. Boon: Shadow Step is incredibly underrated for this, especially on multi-level maps, since it applies an area for stealth for your team.
And probably the best thing of all…
Map Offerings… Just bring a Map Offering… Youll never have to worry about a Killer-sided map if you never go there to begin with.
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First of all this map looks great. You would wonder how many things you can mind game and what you can all do on this map. It does a lot of things a lot better then most maps.
You can loop very well on this map even when most pallets are safe. This map has much more potential in looping than rancid or haddonfield or the new map.
Why do I have to explain everything to you? You are probably someone who thinks haddonfield is fair, am I right? Shure I‘m not thinking like the main stream and I‘m annoying a lot of killer mains with my strances, but why is no one talking about how unfun and unfair this game has become for survivors. All my friends, that I‘ve played with quitted this game, because it only tries to please killers.
I would probably main survivor, but it‘s such a 🤮🤮🤮experience, that I only play killer and while I only get hight prestige survivors and good players, it is so boring, because there isn‘t much they can do on most maps. There are only a few maps left, where this game actually is challenging, fair and fun for me.
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Nah man, the map looks boring like the most generic container level, boxes everywhere, yeah yeah fan service whatever I don't care the map is boring. Sure you can try to mindgame stuff, but if the other side is sentient on 9/10 tiles on this map you will not be able to force a hit, I can think of at least 10-15 pallets on this map that you just need to kick as an m1 killer, because any player that has a rough idea of what he is doing can just sit on the other side when it is dropped and vault it back and forth and you will never get a hit.
Those mentioned maps all suck in that regard, just in the opposite direction, the game has too many safe pallets and those maps have too few, which is why a middle ground should be achieved.
No, I don't think haddonfield is fair, but that is not the point. You do have to explain everything because your opinion is very far away from generally agreed on and basically nobody argues in that direction. Like 3 months ago we had this whole mapping the realm thing where the community got asked what they think about each map, and more than 80% thought that bedham was extremely survivor sided. So since your opinion is far off from mainstream and people in that post offered a lot of reasons why they think the map is not balanced you would need to put in quite some effort to outmanuever their arguments, fairly simple isn't it?
Yeah, no buddy, this is not another us vs them argument, the game does not necessarily favor one side over the other, both sides have stuff that is pretty bs, does not mean that everybody has only their own gain in mind. I don't like the game because the map is full of safe tiles, I don't like Haddonfield because before the rework those god windows were busted and now the map is super empty, guess what I want a balanced experience.
Except for maybe 4-5 maps most of them have everything a good survivor needs to run the killer, it is just that most survivors are not good, they don't preserve the ressources on the map, they don't fake the pallet drop or whatever, they just burn through the ressources and then complain that the map is empty… Which is btw. another point why Gideon is a garbage map, once the pallets are gone it is one of the most empty maps in the game, god I hate this dogwater map with a passion.
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And Id argue that Exhaustion perks do help with awful map RNG.
Sprint Burst can help you get out of a deadzone, and is especially helpful on maps where Generators are located in deadzones. Balanced Landing can make a lot of loops that were not playable into more playable loops (e.g. Coldwind Harvester). And this is just to name a few examples.
Partly true. Shure they help, but not really that much and they can easily get denied by fearmonger and the new crow perk from Verna.
Likewise Stealth Perks can help with outright preventing a chase, which can be extremely helpful on maps with awful RNG since avoiding chases can preserve resources for you and your team. Boon: Shadow Step is incredibly underrated for this, especially on multi-level maps, since it applies an area for stealth for your team.
Stelthing is in most situations not really good. When the killer comes to you, you can‘t run somewhere otherwise you are giving away your position by scratch marks. This means if the killer just searches a small area around gens, he will probably find you if you are not gone already. The problem with stealth is, that if you do it well, your teammates will be found and will die insanely fast. Boons in general are not worth the effort. Shadow step is good don‘t get me wrong, but there are so many flaws with boons in general. Probably behavior will gutt those perks sooner or later since they always gutt perks if killers(/survivors) complain enough. Most newer maps/reworks are also stopping to make maps good for stealth. They don‘t have dark places, they remove bushes and grass, make them smaller, which also means less places to search.
Map Offerings… Just bring a Map Offering… Youll never have to worry about a Killer-sided map if you never go there to begin with.
I wonder how long that will be possible. They only need to rework the last few fair maps left and then this won’t help anymore or maybe they remove map offerings after already countless complains.
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You know how this whole Tier lists and map sides stuff works? Even when all maps would be balanced and fair, no one would say „ah they are fair“. People would still put them on both sides, which would be fine if they were fair and gues what: badham is a fair map, but compared to all other maps just stronger. I hope you get what I mean. Something being one sided does not mean necessarily something bad, but some maps that are killer sided in dbd are generally unwinable against decent killers. This means only most people agreed, that this map is compared to all other maps of the game, in other words conpared to haddonfield, survivor sided. Also to stay with facts there were only the options between the survivor and killer side. There was nowhere written „extremely“ survivor sided.
Nothing what I‘m saying is us vs them, I‘m only extremely unhappy how they treat the game I like. Shure it‘s their game and I won‘t be able to do anything against it, but it feels bad how they make this game constantly worse for me. What I‘m saying is just how I feel about it and my friends I‘ve played with, before they quit.
Shure most survivor players are bad, but then it doesn‘t help to make maps only playable as comp player, who plays 24/7.
„Except for maybe 4-5 maps most of them have everything a good survivor needs to run the killer“
That changed a long time ago
„another point why Gideon is a garbage map, once the pallets are gone it is one of the most empty maps in the game, god I hate this dogwater map with a passion“
That‘s one of the reasons why it is actually killer sided, when you play it right.
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This list is like nearly 3 years old.
The following maps have since been updated afaik:
Gas Heaven, Blood Lodge, Garden of Joy, Mother's Dwelling, Temple of Purgation, Lampkin Lane, Shattered Square (like twice), Shelter Woods.
Hawkins is also back. Macmillan got variations.
Basically all of these changes were to reduce the strength of the maps for Survivors in general.
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That would require maps to be roughly the same strenght to say that bedham is fair under that system where all maps don't have much of a difference in escape rates, but they do and bedham is one of the strongest survivor maps out there. The map is by no means fair. Like no offense, but maps being to killer sided leading to the feeling of being unwinnable is not limited to one side, that can apply for the kiler as well as for the survivor side. Well there was also balanced and when you read through the comments you will see that many people thought it to be on the more extreme side balance wise, also you can somewhat go by the percentage… The clearer it is that the map is onesided the bigger the percentage, and 80% is quite a lot.
Maps are not only playable as comp players, but people need to learn to be more conservative with the ressources, and if they cannot do that then they will die, that is only fair.
I don't think it changed, I think it is still the case, a lot of maps still have very strong fillers, people are just way too wastefull with them.
Sure the map becomes empty once you kicked 25 pallets, but at that point the game is over two times anyway, so what does it matter… If you play an m1 killer without a stealth ability on this map you will not see much land until you kicked like 10 pallets, which is a reason why the map is so terrible.
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Maps are not only playable as comp players, but people need to learn to be more conservative with the ressources, and if they cannot do that then they will die, that is only fair.
I don't think it changed, I think it is still the case, a lot of maps still have very strong fillers, people are just way too wastefull with them.As long as they don‘t introduce some kind of working rank/trophie system and give me the biggest noobs/dicks as teammates they should not balance their game around the top players.
Sure the map becomes empty once you kicked 25 pallets, but at that point the game is over two times anyway, so what does it matter… If you play an m1 killer without a stealth ability on this map you will not see much land until you kicked like 10 pallets, which is a reason why the map is so terrible.
I don‘t think the killers, who struggle on this map will have to wait long to receive the buffs necessary for this. It would be a problem if they buff those killers and make this map trash/weaker. I‘m calling it trash, because all reworks were trash last year.
That would require maps to be roughly the same strenght to say that bedham is fair under that system where all maps don't have much of a difference in escape rates, but they do and bedham is one of the strongest survivor maps out there. The map is by no means fair. Like no offense, but maps being to killer sided leading to the feeling of being unwinnable is not limited to one side, that can apply for the kiler as well as for the survivor side. Well there was also balanced and when you read through the comments you will see that many people thought it to be on the more extreme side balance wise, also you can somewhat go by the percentage… The clearer it is that the map is onesided the bigger the percentage, and 80% is quite a lot.
You wana know for what I would have voted by badham: Survivor sided, but it does not mean it is unfair. So many killer mains are used to play against survivors on weak maps, of corse they will struggle when all they know is rancid, Borgo, haddonfield… This map is by no means unwinable and there are no such maps for killers, killers just no longer know how to play on fair maps, because they are not used to them. The comments don‘t mean anything in this forum. Most people here are killer mains and killer mains are crying a lot more in this forum than survivor mains. Before you ask I‘m reading this forum for while now for amusement and it‘s sometimes very hilarious what killer mains (also survivor mains) write in here. Shure there is also the extrem in here about survivor mains (weave attunement).
My hope how they solve the map issue: They should make the weaker killers viable and stronger, but stopp with making new trash maps or reworking them into trash for survivors. Otherwise they soon have to nerf the majority of killers or give survivors OP abilities.
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They are not balancing the game around top players, what makes you even think that?
How about instead of buffing killers so they can deal with god pallets we don't create a map that has basically no windows but 25 god pallets? That is far easier than reworking half the killer roster…
To just ignore peoples reasonings by calling them kiler/survivor main is ridiculous… The reason why bedham is not far is because all 4 structures are very strong and safe, filler tiles spawn in a way that makes them interconnectable with shack or other strong structures. This leads to the map heavily favoring survivors, the map is not fair in that sense.
The argument to just say people only know how to play on weak maps is also ridiculous, given that most maps are not weak… So for some reason people only get the 4-5 maps that heavily favor killer all day long? Or how else do you only get used to that?
Again, there is like a hand full of maps that are problematic, but many maps are just fine, mcmillan and azarovs are mostly fine, coldwind is mostly fine except for rancid, despite the last few times I played the deadzones were basically non existant… However bedham still has the old cowshed syndrom of spawning strong tiles connected and I hope we can at least agree that old cowshed was busted and not fair, and for the same reasons that map was busted bedham is still busted.
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I just say we disagree here.
I did not play at that time of old cowshed or I just begun playing before they removed it and didn‘t notice it therefore. So I can‘t say wether it was OP or Ok.
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The reason you see more survivor sided maps being pulled the other way is the fact that most maps are survivor sided. Very few maps are killer sided.
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issue with saying x map is killer side or survivor sided is that each side can turn a map into killer sided or survivor sided based off how they play the map.
Forgotten ruin is great example. it has whomping 68% kill-rate. It used to spawn infinity windows with portals however you have consider that killers can hold 4 gen at the top side and never enter dungeon.
The killer that do enter dungeon can make dungeon death sentence. Just play hag, trapper, leatherface camping or dredge to understand this.
Many maps in dbd are survivor sided when survivor uses loops correctly and killer blindly plays the match as hooking game game to race to 12 hooks but when killer starts using gameplay strategies.
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I mean this all just boils down to "yes maps are survivor sided if the survivors aren't bad and the killer doesn't tunnel at 5 gens". I don't want maps balanced around hoping survivors are bad and tunneling at 5 gens. I want things balanced around skill. Yes, Forgotten Ruins is one of the few killer sided maps.
Anything that removes skill from the game I am not a proponent of.
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The thing, when we talk about stuff like Tier lists and which sided maps are, is that the strength level of maps is decreasing for a very long time already. So there won‘t be any time where maps will be balanced and not survivor or killer sided. So obviously there will always be survivor sided maps, but the difference is that you can have current haddonfield as survivor sided map in a few years or current badham. I will gladly take current badham as balancing stand point for both sides instead of haddonfield.
It’s obvious that people will complain about badham, when it is stronger than the other maps, but it is a fair map. Not like haddonfield. On haddonfield it doesn‘t matter how well you play, same on rancid, Borgo realms and temple of purgation.
As killer you can always improve and get better, but as survivor you are pretty limited. At a certainty point it only comes down to maps and perks, but we all know behavior won‘t give us any good survivor perks in the near future. Then they should decide either to buff killers or rework maps to be easier for killers, but not both. This just makes the game unfair. From what I‘m seeing they will overbuff Singu next update and for knight, I don‘t know wether it is a buff or nerf. Shure there are killers that currently suck compared to the others, but even they are performing pretty good currently.
I fail to see what is skill about the new maps:
- getting hit at a rigged 50/50 pallet, where the killer got nothing to do besides waiting for the pallet drop or hitting you through pallets, because of bad internet. New maps mostly only got rigged 50/50 pallets and not even enough of them.
- Then the new maps got almost nothing to work with, because simply nothing spawns. What are survivors even supposed to do, when there is nothing. Am I only loading in a match for the killer to have his fun or to be bored as killer.
- Weird maze tiles, which are so different to all others, that you can‘t know where the pallet/window is (Borgo/Garden of joy), if there spawns a window at all. This in the end forces you to play windows of opportunity to even stand a chance.
- Maps got so small, that you can‘t work on gens or hide from the killer. Besides that they don‘t look good, when they are too small.
- Too little/less bushes or grass to hide in is a problem, when they remove them alongside all recourses
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Yeah we fundamentally disagree on a lot here.
"The thing, when we talk about stuff like Tier lists and which sided maps
are, is that the strength level of maps is decreasing for a very long
time already. So there won‘t be any time where maps will be balanced and
not survivor or killer sided. "Yes I agree the strength of maps has been decreasing over time as historically they were wildly too strong so we've been on a constant path towards evening them out. Obviously perfect balance would never happen, that's a given. However we can get the game to a state where that balance discrepancy is significantly smaller, as we have been working towards.
"It’s obvious that people will complain about badham, when it is stronger than the other maps, but it is a fair map"
Yeah this is just completely not accurate. Badham is not a fair map, even remotely. Even the majority of survivor only players that have a heavy bias would still agree Badham is not a fair map at all. What is generally considered by most the community to be one of the more fair maps would be Coal Tower.
"Not like haddonfield. On haddonfield it doesn‘t matter how well you play, same on rancid, Borgo realms and temple of purgation."
I do think Haddonfield is too heavily skewed towards killer. That said, there are so many more survivor sided maps that touching this one first doesn't make sense until we even out more of the other maps. Rancid and Borgo are more balanced maps than killer sided. New Borgo variant is killer sided though. Temple of Purgation is a very survivor sided map.
"As killer you can always improve and get better, but as survivor you are
pretty limited. At a certainty point it only comes down to maps and
perks"You have this backwards. Replace killer with survivor. At the higher tier skill levels of good vs good the game is very survivor sided. This is agreed upon by most the community. You even see this is comp with many, many restrictions put on the survivors in an attempt to artificially balance the game. For most the killer roster you reach a point where there isn't much more you can do and you're just losing from killer selection and map rng. Survivor has the most agency. IE if both sides play perfectly, you lose as killer almost every time. Whether or not you lose depends how many mistakes the survivors make, it's reliant on survivor mistakes for the killer to win, that is agency. Killers are vastly more reliant on perks than survivor is. If both sides are playing with no perks it is handicapping the killer vastly more than the survivor. You can afford to run meme perks on survivor, but you generally can't on killer.
"Then they should decide either to buff killers or rework maps to be easier for killers, but not both."
I agree here. The fundamental issue is map balance. Either fixing all the bad killers to handle the skewed maps or fix the maps. Seems they're heading in a direction of a blend of the two.
"Shure there are killers that currently suck compared to the others, but even they are performing pretty good currently."
The killers that suck are not currently performing good.
"getting hit at a rigged 50/50 pallet, where the killer got nothing to do
besides waiting for the pallet drop or hitting you through pallets,
because of bad internet. New maps mostly only got rigged 50/50 pallets
and not even enough of them."What's wrong with a 50/50? That's balanced for both sides. Most maps in general have too many loops that the pallet is forced break, encouraging boring/no counter play pre drop game play. Many loops once the pallet is thrown makes like a 70/30 skew in the survivor favor where the loop is generally unplayable as killer and forcing a pallet break unless the survivor just plays ridiculously bad. We need loops that are more realistically playable once the pallet is down.
"Then the new maps got almost nothing to work with, because simply
nothing spawns. What are survivors even supposed to do, when there is
nothing. Am I only loading in a match for the killer to have his fun or
to be bored as killer."While I agree with your premise, the way you feel on those maps as survivor is how killer feels on many more maps.
"Maps got so small, that you can‘t work on gens or hide from the killer.
Besides that they don‘t look good, when they are too small."There isn't a single map that is currently too small. Most maps are way too large. Coal Tower is the perfect size and what most maps should emulate. Small maps encourage player interaction. Hold W is such a boring and zero counter play interaction that is encouraged when maps are too large.
"Too little/less bushes or grass to hide in is a problem, when they remove them alongside all recourses "
I agree. Most maps need a lot more bushes/grass ect.
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i'd say racid abbatoir and haddonfield suffer from pallet density. they should add 5 extra moderately pallets on the map.
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5 seems like quite a bit, I was gonna say like 2-3. Even said, I don't think it's that far from being one of the more balanced maps comparatively. Like if we're gonna call that killer sided, what would we consider balanced? I'd say Coal Tower and I don't think Coal Tower is that heavily far off from Rancid.
In general I don't have an issue with adjusting some more killer leaning maps. My main issue is that I don't understand why those should even be looked at until we bring more survivor sided ones in check first seeing as there's at least twice to three times as many survivor sided issue maps as there are killer ones. Like the likelihood of rolling a bad map as killer is significantly higher than the chance of rolling a bad map as survivor.
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You always just say bedham is fair and never explain why, you get presented with reasons for why the map is extremely onesided and the opposite of fair, but I don't see any counter arguments as to why your opinion is the correct one, this just feels like talking against a wall, you just have this "Bedham is fair" dogma and nothing changes that and you don't even try to reason why this is not supposed to be the case. So if that is how it s then it is just pointless to argue with you about anything, because you don't even try to make a logic argument against it, you just repeat that one phrase.
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in my opinion, the most survivor sided map should be Ormond or Eyrie of crows. if a map is stronger then those two maps, it needs to be worse. The two maps that stick out for being too strong on survivor is Badham preschool and … still Garden of joy. I think they need weaken these two maps a bit. I am not entirely sure how to weaken these two maps but those are the two that stick out.
Most maps are about as survivor sided as they need to be. It is really killer powers that more of the issue. a lot of killer have too many drawbacks in their power and under-tuned kit. While they are improving killer little by little, the weak killer powers suffer on survivor sided maps.
The other aspect that can help killers with stronger maps is better base-kit game-delay mechanic. As peanits wrote almost 2 years ago on the 6.1.0 update , Killer should not feel like they need run game-delay to compete. It should an optional choice to run said perks, not a mandatory choice. I wish i saved screenshot of his post 6.1.0 post where he talks about that but anyway. Since then, killers have only received 2.5% extra regression on kicks and gen-taping changes. from my personal experience with the game, i do not notice these gen defence changes at all. the game doesn't feel any slower when i kick gens. So to me, it is low impact.
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What's wrong with a 50/50? That's balanced for both sides. Most maps in general have too many loops that the pallet is forced break, encouraging boring/no counter play pre drop game play. Many loops once the pallet is thrown makes like a 70/30 skew in the survivor favor where the loop is generally unplayable as killer and forcing a pallet break unless the survivor just plays ridiculously bad. We need loops that are more realistically playable once the pallet is down.
I talked about the pallets where as soon as the pallet is dropped it doesn‘t matter how good you play as survivor, because the killer can just lunge around it. Both sides should be able to play them and not only the killer. The table in raccoon’s main entrance room is a very fair loop. It could be a tiny bit smaller, but over all fair. Those loops on the cinema map are just unfair.
There isn't a single map that is currently too small. Most maps are way too large. Coal Tower is the perfect size and what most maps should emulate. Small maps encourage player interaction. Hold W is such a boring and zero counter play interaction that is encouraged when maps are too large.
Just to name some: New Borgo map, old Borgo map, haddonfield, the one cooldowns map with only shack.
The killers that suck are not currently performing good.
According to the last official kill rates no killer got less than 55% kill rate, which is a higher chance to get a kill for the killer than to escape as survivor. That does not mean. That I‘m against killer buffs. I‘m only against the idea of marking maps trash and buffing killers at the same time. At some point they got to nerf killers when all maps are trash.
Yes I agree the strength of maps has been decreasing over time as historically they were
wildlytoo strong so we've been on a constant path towards evening them out. Obviously perfect balance would never happen, that's a given. However we can get the game to a state where that balance discrepancy is significantly smaller, as we have been working towards.I just mean the last year with that. Before the COH nerf this game was in a very good spot. They only needed to give killer the anti boon perk basekit and it would have been fine.
About killer, soloq and swf sided. Why do killers expect to win everything? Shure everyone wants to win, that’s obvious, but when the killer and the survivors are at the same skill level, survivors should always win. What even would be the point of survivor, when you can’t win? So it is only obvious, that the game is survivor sided at the best against the best. In that case the perks, killer strength, the map or „strategy’s“ decide, who wins. You can‘t really expect to kill always 3/4 people.
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You did also not explain why this map is unfair either. How do you expect me to show that it is fair? I won‘t start a YouTube channel for you.
My matches there are pretty even when playing this map on both sides. I got no problem as killer and not as survivor there.
You are just doing the exact same as I do. You just say something is like it is and believe everyone thinks that way. I know that most people don‘t think like me, especially since only killer mains respond here and majority of people in this forum are killer mains.
Even when things are fair in this game, killers would always ask for more and survivors to be worse. Killer is in the best state it has ever been and killers still want more and more and ….
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Oh well guess I did indeed tell you those reasons like 4 times… Here is just one example… Nice try shifting the blame here…
That is once again such a great assumption, people that have a certain opinion must be killer mains, there is no other reasons for that… And funnily enough in that post I screenshotted here, I already told you that it is ridiculous to ignore peoples opinions and reasonings with the assumption of them being killer/survivors mains and you just did it again :D:D This is hillariously bad ^^
And as a little goody, here is the time before that post above where I already told you some reasons why the map is not fair ;)
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In Main you should not break the one door that connects to the window in the front. Otherwise dealing with main doesn‘t take much time since they are imprisoned in main and only got 2 pallets.
The normal looking houses are basically weaker TL walls, which can easily be dealt by breaking the walls. The basement houses are not too strong either. Getting rid of the pallets is not difficult. Having many connected tiles is not a problem at least for me as killer, but I know you will think of all the excact opposite way than I do. Agree to disagree. Most killers really don‘t struggle against those loops in my matches either.
It doesn‘t really make sense to nerf maps further when killers are so different in strength. When they would nerf all killers to roughly be b or c tier then they could also nerf maps to the same degree. How are survivors supposed to deal with a killer, that the new/reworked maps are simply to weak for!
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As others have said, you think Gideon and Badham are "fair". So basically your version of "fair" is "very survivor favored".
Also didn't they make the main building even stronger on Garden in the rework? Iirc that was widely considered a failed rework because the problem they wanted to fix they made worse instead.
But you've only been playing for a year. No offense but imo this just reflects that as this sounds like the words of someone whose not experienced/skilled and doesn't understand the game well enough yet. Which tend to lean more on the survivor side since at lower levels of play survivors struggle more than at mid levels.
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No, it's not a fair map, because if you don't have a power to ignore pallets in some way, the strength and non-mindgameability of most of its loops (as they are low and almost exclusively pallet) means that by the time you've cleaned out enough pallets that parts of the map are unsafe, efficient survivors have completed most of the gens. It's easy to find people, but no matter where they are on the map, they're a stone's throw away from several strong or god pallets that chain into each other and the only way to get downs is to chew through these resources, and getting the survivors to drop the pallet is a matter of brute force because like you said, you cannot mindgame to hasten the process. I can perform well in Gideon, but that's because my MMR is currently low after playing nice during the event. As soon as you're up against competent survivors? You just don't have enough time.
WDYM, Trapper has a good time on this map? There's nowhere to hide his traps. No grass, barely any windows, wide corridors and doorways. He has one good spot at the stairs and bottom of the vat drop and that's about it. He might get lucky with some of the narrow pathway RNG on the basement floor, but those corridors will be rendered moot once nearby gens are completed and the doors open. Trapper's one of the worst killers to play here. Legion can injure everyone but has a rough time getting downs. Clown doesn't have a good time - he can force drops earlier than most M1 killers, but he still has to break a dozen pallets before he's allowed to hit anyone. Stealth killers? Ghostface and Myers get clowned on hard in this map. Gideon has way more visibility than the other indoor maps, and stealth killers are notoriously bad at dealing with pallets. Pig's ambush rarely works on these loops between god pallets and perfect visibility. Wraith is better at forcing pallet drops, at least. Onryo can get a lot of condemned stacks and waste survivors' time via the tapes but is as badly off as any other M1 with the pallets.
It's a really badly designed map. It needs more windows and less god pallets - some nonexhaustible resources that survivors can't lose, so the map doesn't become a giant brainless deadzone by the end of the match, but killers don't have to mandatorily lose chase to clean up.
I'd suggest avoiding baselessly accusing your opponents of being lazy and wanting things to be unfair. Both tribalism and strawmanning are bad looks and the wide majority of players swap readily between both roles and have a decent idea of how the game looks from both angles, even if they might prefer one or the other.
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The classic dbd answer („skill issue“), that goes also back to whoever says it. I get quite good survivors and killers as opponents, sadly we don‘t have a ranked system to just show a picture or something.
You all musst always only get 0ks, because survivors are that undefeatable, but still the stats say otherwise. Killer is not difficult and a lot easier than survivor.
On garden of joy they nerfed basically everything except of main, shack and car park. The maze tiles most times don‘t even have a window now.
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