The real issues...
After a break long 2 years i've returned to see a lot of things changed, and even now i heard about other changes that the devs want to implement... You see, there's only one thing that personally bother me actually: years have passed, but the devs still fail to grasp a single yet decisive concept about this game... Let me explain better:
They gave basekit tools to deal with campers and tunnnelers (which mind you, it's a good thing par se), but they don't understand WHY those tactics were so popular... the REAL problem Imo is that the devs are literally stripping away every type of gameplay that a killer can do in order to play efficiently in order to slow down the genspeed (which some of them are boring but help to keep up the pace with the survivors that aren't completely braindead) but they aren't compensating those "losses", quite the contrary, they even nerfed some perks that actually were helpful to avoid camping and tunneling such as pop (for the first case since It force you to go AWAY from the hook in order to use the perk) and ruin (for the second case since it reward you for actually patrolling generators and spreading pressure).
p.s: Another minor issue is that in my matches as killer i see the basekit BT and other perks made for avoid tunneling and camping used as weapon aganist me
Comments
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Despite all those nerfs to Killer, Killers haven't ever killed more.
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I think most issues have been getting worse with addition of certain perks and map design. With perks there are quite a few, most aura reading perks make stealth nearly impossible for survivors. Others are slowdowns and speed up perks on both sides. Personally i don't think gen speeds should be sped up by any perk and should be sped up only if multiple people are working on the same gen. On the opposite of that things like Pop and pain res really destroy gen progress especially when paired together. Map design is not great. You have massive maps like eyrie of crows and red forest while most new/reworked maps are relatively small and have a gimmick.
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You missed the point... I wasn't talking about kills and escapes, i'm talking about the gameplay... I wouldn't consider those stats in this case for a simple thing: i can do a match without hooking someone until the last gen pop and still get 2 or 3 kills cause survivors want to save at all costs their teammate or i can do a match without killing anyone but doing 8 hooks... Kills and escapes ≠ fun. Right now i'm talking about fun and interactive gameplay... As i said, there were changes that tried to punish and discourage the killer for playing in an unfun way, but at the same time they also punished those who actually want to play without resort to tunneling and camping and want to have viable strategies in order to play without using those boring and unfun tactics (like the old times when wraith could do hit and run tactics for example), this is what i criticize @Pulsar
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Yeah, unfortunately more stuff you add into the game, more difficult It becomes to balance everything... This is another thing to put into the equation
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Yes the entire game has been dumbed down in the last couple of years. Many mechanics have been removed, maps have been made smaller, killer has been made baby mode easy thanks to a 60+% kill rate target. Survivor has become indredibly bland and lame to play.
Enjoy, gameplay will only decline in the next two years.
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I wish people would get this killer kill rate percentage out of their head.
4 slugs = 4k
Do this 10 times = 40 kills no hooks.
Add to this survivors killing themselves on first hook and the kill percentage rate is meaningless bs.
Until Devs count hooks you will never get a true measure of killer strength.
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Based on what they've said and done in the past, I feel confident saying the devs understand why camping and tunnelling used to happen so frequently - and still happens, in the case of tunnelling. They happened/happen because they're easier than actually trying.
In the current state of the game, gen times are basically not a problem if you're playing actively and spreading your pressure (by which I mean, pushing multiple survivors to react to you at once, NOT patrolling generators passively). The only real exception to this is toolboxes, but even then everyone in the trial has to have one, that they've specced for repair, and probably some supporting perks, before it becomes a huge problem.
There have been some nerfs to killer things, yes, but there's also been quite a few buffs. Killer basekits get improved semi-regularly, perks get buffed semi-regularly, and then there have also been some changes to things like maps and survivor perks that further improve the killer experience.
I've never understood this idea of "devs kill every strategy killers have", I don't understand what it's even referring to. It's just camping and tunnelling that get hit with adjustments, and deservedly so. You still have the entire breadth of killer gameplay and strategy available to you.
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and this is where you are wrong in my opinion: as far as i know, the best thing that actually a killer can do is to kill the 1st survivor as soon as possible, even when DS and BT are in the match… a 3vs1 is a lot more manageable than a 4vs1 and this is a fact… if you say that only camping and tunneling are punished, then explain me why i didn't see a single killer using perks like sloppy butcher and nurse calling or full aura reading/gen patrolling builds.
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Man what kinda bs is this pop and pain rez legit encourage 3 genning and prox camping because it free value if they make the game a hook trade sumator and can keep then in the match for an extra 12 minutes jist for trading mabe if the perk didn't activate if the hooked and unhooked would count but yeah they won't do that because BHVR can see everything they can see how the kill rates are going down and what is causing the kill suck is the kill rate 60 because of skull or is is their because of hook trade simulator for pop pain rez value because it destroy 45% of a gen for no work at all and yeah over 75% of the community hook trades for value in almost ever pain rez game is happen killer last 2 gen first chase continues to try to hook trade for value it sounskillful and boring it game is about CHASEING not defending gens
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So, you're right that the best thing a killer can do is kill the first survivor as soon as possible… but that's only viable because of how easy tunnelling is. The more they weaken tunnelling, the more that easy win will seem less accessible, and the more killers will lean into playing legitimately. Weakening tunnelling is a good thing, because it's currently unbalanced enough that trying to get the first person out ASAP seems very doable, because it is very doable.
As to your other question, people will run what they perceive to be the strongest option, and in this case that's slowdown. It actually has nothing to do with killer nerfs at all, people just value slowdown a lot more than they value anti-heal, information perks, or chase perks.
If you're asking me if they SHOULD run those perks, my answer is absolutely yes. A balanced build with a clear intent is stronger than stacking four independent slowdowns, or three slowdowns and a token info perk. People just aren't doing that because they think more slowdown will give them proportionately higher chances at winning, often while also trying to tunnel the first person out so they aren't even using their perks properly. Then they complain about gen speeds, as if they aren't completely failing to actually contest them in any way…
TL;DR, having all those tools and options available doesn't mean people are going to choose to use them, even if they should.
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I mean the simple solution would be to stop adding perks or stop adding so many problem perks. I guess you can see the trend with most new stuff released anymore as they are good in a sense but require so wild prerequisite to activate. for instance most of sables perks, unknowns perks, the bard perks, Vecna's perks, lara's perks (may be changed but most look very low to mid tier). They're not "bad" but not "good" either compared to a lot of other perks. You could probably go back this past year or 2 and see most of the perks are niche use cases or require another perk to make pretty good (only outlier i can think of would be knights No where to hide or pre-nerf Made for this).
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Fist of all it's not 45% of a generator since the 20+20+5% is actually applied on the current progress of the generator and not on the total charges of the generator, not to mention that you can regress a gen until 8 times, after that you can no longer kick it or use perks that will regress said generator and secondly skull merchant need a complete rework imo since her gameplay is unhealthy for the game to say the least, but that's not the point… the point was that the devs are slowly making all the best strategies that a killer can do (camping and tunneling) not viable anymore, which could be fine IF they actually incentivized the mixed hook strategy, but unfortunately they think only to PUNISH killers instead that actually giving a reason (aka making the mixed hooks a VIABLE strategy) to play in that way…
Post edited by Tostapane on0 -
This is another reason why in this thread i'm not talking about kills/escapes but about gameplay, but for some reason people fail to grasp this...
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A fluke.
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No, I'm afraid not.
Even going back two years, we see the same idea. I'm sorry that it doesn't fit your narrative.
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And yet y'all never have a clue why those stats are what they are. It's bad, deceptive data.
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Exactly! How many free kills are being given every match?! And then they say, "Well, the killer must just be that strong!" Yeah, he's so strong he took control of the survivors to make them play bad or DC.
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Last kill stat average across the board we received from the devs was a 58.5% kill rate. That stat you linked from two years ago being 61.3%. That would mean the kill rate has in fact gone down, contrary to what you’re saying. I’d also argue even the 58.5 is inflated a bit from killers like SM that are artificially significantly higher from people removing themselves so much.
So by the data it would say this is not in fact the best kill rates have ever been.
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IIrc, they stopped doing the High MMR KR and just started doing Survival rate, which is different since it's different roles.
Not sure why it's so blurry, but this is for all MMR's. We don't know the high MMR KR for new stats, iirc. A .06% difference isn't significant enough to say it went down or up.
Also, only two Killers are even below 55% KR, which would be Billy (who has gotten changes) and Doctor, who has gotten buffed.
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I dont understand people saying Gen Times are okay.
I know people in this community are split about otzdarva, but a year ago, he made a video about why gen repair times are/were problematic. With the thesis being, that it is hard to play around gen times that can vary as widely as they do considering toolboxes and perks.
And since then, they nerfed Killers access to slowdown in a way, that makes it even less controllable, so every game I load up, it's gambling on whether I hear a gen pop as or before I get my first hook, or if the survs will sit on 4 Gens for 10 minutes because none of them has any way to speed them up while I sit on 1 Pentimento that they just refuse to clear.
I general I agree with the notion, that it seems there is more discouragement rather than encouragement for certain playstyles.
Easily accessible and reliable options are slowdown, and everything else risks the game not being fun, so Killers dont run it.Then there is also the circle of toxicity, where it becomes hard to not slug against bully groups. If I dont slug, I get Sabo'd or Flashlighted. So I either Slug or refuse to play.
I also agree, that tools that were supposed to be anti-tunneling are often abused.
Like an unhooked person bodyblocking knowing they have Basekit/Perk BT active. Or people refusing to participate in the game after a hook, so they can preserve DS for it's full duration, even if I dont chase them.
It's almost like they dont mean it, when they say they dont want to be tunneled, because they do everything in their power to make me want to tunnel them.
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Oh and about Killrates.
People forget that a 50% Killrate is a tie. 60% means that 3Ks are way more rare than 2Ks meaning that we're moving in a sphere where more games end up tied than being won by Killers.
And the game, being asymmetric, wants Killers to win more often. If they didnt want that, they would have made the game symmetric.0 -
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say that gen times are okay, it's always with the added element of "except for" toolboxes.
If nobody in the trial has toolboxes - even if they're running something like Resi or Deja Vu or Overzealous or what have you - gen times are okay.
This is meaningful because it helps us narrow down what the talking point and feedback should be. It's not that gen times need looking at, it's that toolboxes need to be nerfed, specifically.
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Right so .06% isn’t super substantial but my point is that it’s misleading people by stating kill rates have never been better when that is in fact not true. Even if it’s not a statistically large percentage, it’s in the opposite direction, not even .06% higher.
More accurate if we wanted to not use a small percentage change would be to say, “kill rates haven’t changed much”.If we took someone who had never played DBD and put that phrase and your phrase side by side they would each paint a different picture for them of the game by the phrasing.
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Since we agree that .06% isn't meaningful, as far as we know, KR has never been better.
That we know of. I suspect it was probably higher during Eruption, but no stats for that.
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I wonder about KR too. It feels possible that tweaking mmr can influence KR right? Like if every Survivor team spawns 1 expert, 2 intermediate, and 1 novice, a 60% KR may be easy to achieve. But maybe if you make the mmr put 2 experts on a team you can make the KR 50% or something.
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You’re saying never been better instead of haven’t changed. That’s misleading phrasing. By that rational I could also say kill rates have never been lower than now. By the way you’re phrasing it that would still make that statement just as valid as yours but it would also be misleading.
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Except they have? By a percentage that matters as well. That would be a lie since we have record of them being lower.
You are arguing semantics and your example doesn't track. We are functionally at the highest KR that we have record of, what I said is true.
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blob:https://forums.bhvr.com/865df906-632f-4617-9e3a-35fbae48dddd
Kill rates have been drastically higher in the past. What you’re saying is not true.
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I can't see whatever you linked.
I suspect it's an ancient stat dump, likely from before MMR was implemented?
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tbh, now I'm curious.
I found this one from late 2020 I think. This would've been just prior to MMR, iirc. Rank system was tighter than it used to be, but I'm still distrustful of anything using Ranks prior to 2020. For two reasons.
One, the game is so different that I'm not sure it's a good comparison, both in players attitude and in gameplay.
And two, because the system was easier to game back then and there was no Crossplay. DDoS'ing and stuff was RAMPANT on Console
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Mine was from 2020 as well roughly a 68% kill rate. Yes it was pre mmr. I went pre mmr, because you were referencing pre mmr. If you want to only talk post mmr then we’re back at the original point of your phrasing being misleading since post mmr kill rates have been roughly the same. You brought up how they used to be much lower which is why I went there.
Realistically for data we should probably avoid pre mmr as you’re referencing, but then that goes back to my original point of we shouldn’t be saying “highest it’s ever been” since that paints an unrealistic picture to inexperienced players.
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Am I forgetting something big that happened in 2020?
What caused THAT big of a drop? 12% drop is actually insane.
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Feel like the issue with gen times comes down to alot of stacking. You can have one game where people run balanced builds (as in perks that cover different things), and the next match people can run a full loadout that all stacks towards gen speed.How can you balance something with both these approaches in mind?
While killer slowdowns have been designed in an anti-synergy approach, survivor gen speed perks can for the most part ALL stack. Killer slowdown are generally divided between progress reduction and gen blocking. Gens that are blocked or already regressing can't be kicked to utilize perks like Pop, while gens that are blocked ALSO don't regress, even if they would otherwise be regressing (ruin for example). IMO, this is a pretty good approach. On the survivor side though... no such approach is taken. Most gen speed perks can be used in tandem.
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I’d have to look back on those old patch notes to see exactly as I can’t remember what big changes happened right then, but yeah huge change so it must have been a big patch around that time.
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Well, like I said, you'd balance around that by identifying the lynchpin of those builds: Toolboxes.
A survivor could be running four perks that all increase gen speeds, but because of their numbers and design, they'd pale in comparison to just running a toolbox with good addons, let alone with good addons and a supporting build.
It's entirely possible that perks alone could become an issue in the future, with more releasing and more changes coming in, but as it stands right now, a survivor even dedicating all four perks to gen speed just isn't getting particularly unbalanced results if we're exempting toolboxes from the discussion. Add toolboxes in, and the problem appears.
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The changes I found were the Billy and Bubba reworks and the bigger one, imo, was the switch to Dedicated Servers.
https://steamdb.info/patchnotes/4925215/
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Dang I didn’t realize peer to peer was giving that many more kills. Pretty wild. More significant effect than I thought for dedicated servers.
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There are a couple other patches in there too now that I'm looking. Just depends on when the data you have was collected.
Dedicated Servers were definitely very very janky in the beginning.1 -
Doesn’t show months so I can’t say. We’d have to manually go through all the old posts to see exactly when it was listed.
I remember them being pretty janky but I didn't think it was that bad. It’s been a while since then though.
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It has been a long time, doesn't seem like 4 whole years ago tho jeez time flies.
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guys, you aren't getting the point that i was trying to make with this thread… forget for a second the statistics… i'm talking about the GAMEPLAY that a match usually have… we ALL know that tunneling and proxycamping are the best strategies out there despite the basekit bt and all the other perks for helping aganist those tactics… the point that i'm trying to make is that devs never tried to actually REWARD a killer that go for mixed hooks… quite the contrary, usually the killer will get punished for not playing in that way… i can tell you my anedocte that i had right now: i was playing in a awful map like lery, trying to playing fair and going for mixed hooks, when suddently the guy that i hooked started to bodyblock me while i was trying to go for the rescuer… he used a basekit feature MADE FOR FIGHTING TUNNELING AND CAMPING aganist a killer that wasn't playing in that way! (and no, i couldn''t wait it out since he was using off the record as well) i was punished for playing fair… this is the issue! you can't try to create a more healthier gameplay if then people literally ABUSE those feature aganist people that are trying to play fair… this was an example of many… for instance that guy has also DS on his build so i was put in a lose/lose situation (my primary target gone, without the opportunity to start a chase with a new survivor and with me being forced to go again for the same guy despite my efforts to go for another one)
p.s: i couldn't do anything about it since he placed himself in a way that completely blocked me from reaching another place without hitting him first
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The game will always be a gen speed vs how much slowdown the killer uses because the core of the game is still do 5 gens and leave no matter how much perks they add no matter how much survivors and killers and maps they add the game is still do 5 gens and leave and until that changes the best perks will always be slowdown no matter how much times they nerf them half this game's release span the meta has been slowdown in one form or another whether its ruin, pop, ruin + unying, pain res + DMS, Pop AGAIN etc
TLDR: Until the core objective gets changed the meta will remain the same
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The gameplay overall needs a HUGE change, both for killer and survivor. I'm main killer, and I've been playing a bit more survivor lately, but the game is getting again too boring to the point that not even switching role makes me want to play more than 2-3 matches a day.
As killer, I only play friendly killer. 2 hooks on each and you're free to go. Even then, I feel the necessity of having extra objectives as killer to do. If i played normally, having as only objective to kill the survivors leads me to only be after them, no matter who, until they die. That's why people tunnel, slug, and camp. Kicking gens is an absolute joke, just as waste of time. So, what would a killer do if not following survivors in boring loops and killing them? There's no incentive for anything else.
As survivor, doing gens is the most boring thing ever. Just sitting there for a few seconds with 2 skill checks at most and you're done... Unhooking others is the fun part in my opinion, and even chases (even if i suck at that) are entertaining a bit. When on hook, it's also boring as #########, especially if your teammates suck. But since the main objective is repairing the gens, the main gameplay is boring as hell. And since the only objective of killers is to get kills, i often get tunneled, camped, or slugged.
The entirety if the gameplay needs a rework basically from scratch.
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i doubt that this will happen sadly, people already suggest secondary objectives to do or another type of mode… those requests were almost completely ignored (at least in some events they do some interesting things such as chaos shuffle, but it's still not enough…)
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I think it's your play style that makes it boring. For example you say kicking gens is a joke and a waste of time... I use nowhere to hide to see hidden survivors near the gen or what direction they ran to. Handy if your Myers, can see them hiding then just insta kill them. There are other perks that makes kicking gens worthwhile too. I do agree that it's boring going in circles chasing a looper but that's due to survivors ignoring the other objectives in the game that gives points.
From a survivor point of view, doing gens, doing totems, evading the killer gives points. if your only thinking "do gens, escape" then yes it can be boring. You also admit to not playing the game as intended by getting 2 hooks then letting them go, I would be bored doing that and playing against a killer like that because that's not what a match should be. Maybe instead of thinking of the goal being "kill survivors" or "escape as survivor" you could look at the points as a goal, try get as many points as possible by changing your play style? Or play a game better suited to you?
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you know, it's impossible to use other type of playstyles when survivors actually do gen and play safe and killers actually want to win at all costs… if the survivors start rushing generators the killer will start tunneling and camping because changing target sometimes isn't even a solution/option since the map is full of resources (pallets and windows) and the only way to kill someone is focusing on the weakest survivor in the team regarding looping, same thing when the killer start tunneling and camping from the start, the only way to get away is to do generators as fast as possible, so he isn't wrong regarding that the gameplay must be modified since the best strategies to win aren't exactly funny…
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I use nowhere to hide as well
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