When will the developers finally adapt “Windows of Opportunity”?
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Not quite the same thing.
You can remember where your chases happened, but if you aren't running a perk that shows you the auras of your fellow survivors then you can't really track where their chases happened.
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im not gonna change your mind but even as a killer i gotta disagree i think its fine as it is but maybe just lower the range if we do nerf it and only have it active in chase
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Here is a fix :
After any combination of 2 fast vaults and/or 2 pallet drops, this perk goes on cooldown for 20 seconds (cooldown period can be adjusted)
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This is what is simply not true. First, because not all SWF play like a SWAT team that shares every single movement they make, and second, because it allows anyone, no matter if it is a good looper or not, to make informed decisions everytime removing any possibility of making a mistake.
The only Swfs that can be argued to be too strong are the ones that play like a SWAT team. So we go back to the previous argument. The strong swfs don't need the perk and the casual ones that play like solos with no coordination are not strong or over performing regardless of WoO.
Besides: going to a dead zone because someone else wasted all the pallets in that area is not a mistake from the person currently being chased. Its bad luck and lack of coordination (something Solo queue has no control over). Using WoO to remove that aspect of bad luck does not make the perk overpowered. If anything removing that aspect of luck makes the chase more skill based.
That's precisely the problem, that's why the "it is an accessibility option for new players" argument is not valid , because it also gives value to those good loopers that now can loop the killer from pallet to pallet without ever entering a death zone by mistake. That's why it should be nerfed.
I am not making the accessibility argument. Merely pointing out that skilled players don't need the perk and get minimal benefit from it. Nerfing WoO is only going to get a substantial result in the low levels of skill. And survivors are already struggling there. That would be bad balancing.
Except, again, it allows unskilled players to:
Not having to memorize where pallets spawn
Not having to memorize where unused pallets are
Not having to plan their escape in case the killer finds them in a gen
Not even having to know how to loop, as they can go from pallet to pallet predropping it and still make the killer lose a lot of time
A good player knows where pallets spawn without a perk telling them and can instead use that perk slot for something else entirely. Simply knowing what pallets where used is not strong enough to justify a nerf.
Simply pre dropping as soon as you get to the pallet does not buy much time unless its a god pallet or a bad killer. That used to be effective back when most maps where filled with super safe pallets but that is not the case anymore.
"That while, again, allowing skilled players to never make a mistake in term of pathing and what loop to play, as they will always know what loops still has a pallet."
Knowing where loops are is not the same as knowing how to play them. How to checkspot them. How to mindgame them. How to correctly run them . And once again: predropping as soon as you get to a pallet is not efficient. Good players will buy much more time than someone that is just running to yellow with WoO.
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when is corrupt intervention or lethal pursuer finally getting changed? I mean if the only criteria is being used a lot they need to be on the plan first. Change my mind.
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Corrupt only has a pick rate of 15.7% and Lethal 15.2%. That's not comparable to the pick rate of a perk that's more than both of them combined.
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This thread is not about corrupt or lethal. It is exclusively about WoO
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Why would you need to change a perk that works well, doesnt cause any gameplay issues and isnt OP? Just changing the meta is the worst possible concept of balance. We already had that and it got way worse than before.
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I'm chiming in to say this: If Killers are not allowed to have permanent aura read on anything because "it's too easy, go develop a gamesense", why should Survivors be allowed it? Why on earth do you ACTUALLY need to know exactly where and when to go and what pallets got used/dropped where? You really ARE NOT intended to always know where the Baby Meg used a pallet, not even SWFs know or get that information. Why are we giving SoloQ and newbies a perk that inherently makes them stronger at map knowledge than a SWF instead of asking newer players to simply. Learn. To pay. Attention?
I 100% believe that part of the reason for Map pallet and vault reduction is because of the overall large use of WoO. We saw in Chaos Shuffle and Lights Out how many people RELY on this perk, and are lost without it. If you are so reliant on a perk you HAVE TO run it, that itself is an issue. It simply is not okay or fair to say that one side can have free info on something with no activation request necessary but not the other.
Give WoO a range reduction or mild cooldown, or ONLY activate it outside of chase, so that Survivors must learn to plan their routes ahead of time instead of getting a free GPS to every single resource in the game for chase. If it's a learning tool, make it a learning tool. This change will not impact good Survivors or SWF at all, and WILL help newer Survivors better learn to plan ahead.
Or why not have WoO ONLY show vaults permanently and make another perk for pallets only? That way someone who wants that much free info would have to pick, OR dedicate two slots to it. You know, kind of like Killers have to for their info perks? It really is only fair. No side should have any amount of free, effortless, forever aura read on anything that isn't an objective. Period.
Like, it's far from the most offensive perk, and I guess it's fine, but it really can be slightly problematic when every other game is somene literally relying on it. I have legit had people DC because I countered WoO with a perk or simple mindgames - not just once, MULTIPLE times. Against an M1 Killer, which WoO is classically thought of as stronger against. It's an issue.
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This advantage causes a lot of problems. As a survivor, you don't even have to bother running from window to window or pallet to pallet.
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Who says what is intended or not? You? Why do you get to decide what is "intended"? I don't remember lack of Woo causing issues in Chaos Shuffle, and Lights Out was just Killer sided in every, way you can't pin that on Windows. The fact is the 60% kill rate targets now are largely being met with Windows as the most popular perk so if they nerf it and Kill rates increase then Survivors will have to be buffed in a different way and then Killer mains will whine about that. A perk combo that allows mapwide Wallhacks and makes every item useless and essentially has no counterplay in many situations is broken. Windows is not.
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The Devs. And just look at their track record on Killer.
Either we should all have lots of aura read, or nobody should. I would genuinely rather an aura reading Meta than whatever we have with gens and chase.
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In principle, it doesn't matter whether you are for or against the WoO. Fact is: If the developers don't change "Windows of Oppertunity", it will stay at the top forever and this will not be happend. I don't think this is in anyone's best interest, especially in terms of future perks.
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I'm chiming in to say this: If Killers are not allowed to have permanent aura read on anything because "it's too easy, go develop a gamesense", why should Survivors be allowed it?
Killers have been allowed this. Aura reading got a massive powercreep on the killer side, which is why forum killers are also having an aneurism about Distortion.
But also, killer aura reading and WoO are drastically different. WoO is survivor vs. other survivors and RNG. Killer aura reading is vs. survivors, as it specifically undoes skillful play by survivors.
The rage against WoO is mostly killers feeling entitled to the game's RNG winning things for them. The problem with killer aura reading is that survivors don't get a chance to make plays.
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All an aura is, is a highlight of something in the round. It is different colors based on what the thing is - objective, blocked object, player, etc. A perk that does this is an aura read perk. WoO is an aura read perk. The aura reading is just on pallets and vaults. Deja vu is also classed as aura read. It's aura reading on gens.
Aura perks aren't restricted to the narrow definition of "shows the other player(s)". If it highlights things for you, it's an Aura perk. It shows auras of something.
Nobody is out here "having an aneurysm" about WoO, do you see anyone here that upset about it? No. What IS here, is frustration with the perk. And the frustration with WoO comes because of its use on pallet-dense maps that create unfair looping scenarios for some Killers and make chases really, really unfun and boring because they are predictable. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with "Entitled Killer rage" and saying so is really, really disingenuous and biased. Saying stuff like that only increases us vs. them, and it really makes you sound very much like an entitled Survivor-only player, and I beg you to reconsider if that's not the case and you actually have played Killer.
If you have not played Killer, I don't know if you're really qualified to comment on what is or is not too much information for Killers. Because I promise you - as someone who plays both sides, I can and do often outplay even full aura read builds on Killers. Without Distortion. All it requires is a little gamesense to know the Killer is playing with aura read, and you can play into that by knowing that you need to play more carefully. In fact I was running Kitsune Yui (a very obvious skin) tonight and managed to handle two different full Aura Huntresses just fine, and escape. It's really not hard to counter even full on aura read.
Aura reading isn't get out of jail free, all it does is keep chase going and prevent ratting from Survivors. I'm not even trying to be mean here - if you really can't handle Killer aura reading as Survivor to the point you "don't get a chance to make plays", it really is just a skill issue at that point and I genuinely don't know what to say.
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All an aura is, is a highlight of something in the round. It is different colors based on what the thing is - objective, blocked object, player, etc. A perk that does this is an aura read perk. WoO is an aura read perk. The aura reading is just on pallets and vaults. Deja vu is also classed as aura read. It's aura reading on gens.
I don't know what the purpose of this is, unless you're trying to use this as an argument against the differentiation between WoO and most killer aura reading, in which case your underlining of their most basic similarities does not change that these are fundamentally different in function.
Nobody is out here "having an aneurysm" about WoO
I said that about Distortion, not WoO.
And the frustration with WoO comes because of its use on pallet-dense maps that create unfair looping scenarios for some Killers
Except that's not something WoO does, is it? The exact same scenario can play out the exact same way regardless of whether WoO is or is not in play. Because WoO does not add pallets or change the locations of vaults or puts TL walls next to the shack, or what have you.
Everything that you might complain about WoO doing, can be done without it. The only thing WoO cuts out is RNG and lack of communication. The only thing that changes with the introduction of WoO is that the survivor doesn't accidentally run into a dead zone. That is the loss that is being lamented with WoO.
and make chases really, really unfun and boring because they are predictable.
As opposed to the really fun bit where there is no chase at all because the survivor ran for a pallet that didn't spawn in.
It has absolutely nothing at all to do with "Entitled Killer rage" and saying so is really, really disingenuous and biased.
But killers being entitled to survivors getting shafted by RNG or lack of communication is the only argument being levelled against WoO here, though. Unless you want to count 'gets used a lot', but I don't think anyone wants to go for that one.
If you have not played Killer, I don't know if you're really qualified to comment on what is or is not too much information for Killers. Because I promise you - as someone who plays both sides, I can and do often outplay even full aura read builds on Killers.
Oh, sure, you can, but there's a whole aspect of gameplay that gets a bullet to the head from the excesses of aura reading that have been dumped on killers. Something that WoO doesn't do.
and prevent ratting from Survivors
And that's the problem. Ratting is a legitimate strategy. Playing cautious and stealthy is part of the game. Aura reading out the wazoo annihilates that. You can be as tricky as you like, using Deception and the legendary pebble, but it's gonna do squat when you're lit up like a christmas tree every 5 seconds.
Which is why the powercreep on killer aura reading is way more invasive than WoO.
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I can see we probably are not gonna agree on this, but thank you for taking the time to respond point by point anyway. I respect your view, I just don't agree with it. Good chat.
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While I personally don't use WOO and I don't think it's really as strong as some people make it out to be, IF you were going to change it due to the overall pick rate being too high, they should make it to where when you first get in chase it gives you a 10 sec reveal and then after that every time you vault a window while in chase it should reveal for 10 sec all pallet and window locations, that way for the longer you can stay up in chase you're rewarded while also having to use memory and skill to continue getting the effect mid chase, is it a nerf? Yes but at least this way something is involved to earn it along the way
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The only Swfs that can be argued to be too strong are the ones that play like a SWAT team.
Because if a team of 4 people only says "The killer is going to where you are, get out of there!" and does not transmit any other info, they don't have a great advantage over SoloQ, of course…
In other words, everything you said here is, again, simply not true.
[…] Using WoO to remove that aspect of bad luck does not make the perk overpowered. If anything removing that aspect of luck makes the chase more skill based.
That's like saying that in a poker match, allowing some players to know what the next card in the deck is to remove any luck factor and make all their decisions informed would not be overpowered, when it is a huge advantage.
"Bad luck" is part of the game. Deciding your path while taking into account that you could end up in a dead zone is part of being good and skilled at the game. Something that allows you to remove any luck from the game and not make a single wrong decision is powerful by definition. That's why SWF with voicecoms are considered too strong to begin with.
So, explain to me how a perk that allows you to do that without any cost and while being alone is not overpowered. In fact, we can argue that SWF has a bigger cost and drawback than WoO, as you need at least another person, for them to be able to use meta communications, and that he has enough game sense to transmit useful information when he must.
I am not making the accessibility argument.
Never said you were.
Merely pointing out that skilled players don't need the perk and get minimal benefit from it.
And I already pointed out why that's a lie, and they get pretty much the same value from it, which in their hands is a huge advantage in comparison to someone who doesn't have the skill to use the info that the perk provides yet.
Nerfing WoO is only going to get a substantial result in the low levels of skill. And survivors are already struggling there. That would be bad balancing.
Again, bad balancing is having a perk that is a substitute for a whole part of the game sense required to do well at the game. If they nerf a perk and suddenly you can't do good, then the problem was first that the perk was too strong and, most importantly, that you relied on it instead of developing the required skill. In other words, it's on you.
A good player knows where pallets spawn without a perk telling them and can instead use that perk slot for something else entirely.
And? That doesn't contradict anything that has been said, especially all the things that you are not required to do anymore just by using it.
Simply knowing what pallets where used is not strong enough to justify a nerf.
No, but knowing where every single not used pallet are on chase is. Again, WoO should be a tool to allow you to plan your pathing and escapes on top of having the game sense to do that on the first place. You should be memorizing every pallet you see while moving around the map, and even the hint system tell you that when the match is loading.
The problem with WoO is that it allows you to simply forget about all that, as you will have that info on the fly the moment a chase happens. That's the part that should be nerfed.
Simply pre dropping as soon as you get to the pallet does not buy much time unless its a god pallet or a bad killer. That used to be effective back when most maps where filled with super safe pallets but that is not the case anymore.
And again, that's simply not true. Most loops are simply "circles" that don't require a lot of knowledge or skill to be played, and the moment the pallet is dropped it becomes a safe loop while removing any possibility of mind gaming for the killer, leaving him with two options:
- Break the pallet, which will make the survivor simply go to the next one (without any chance of choosing wrong and going to a loop without a pallet, thanks to WoO).
- Brute force it, which will waste a lot of time just by running in circles and even more if the survivor has a minimum game sense and fake pallet vaults and such.
Either way, you are wasting a good amount of the killer's time, especially at the start of the match where there are another 3 survivors doing gens and every single pallet that the map could have spawned. "But if that happens, a good killer would drop the chase and find another survivor." True, but that doesn't change the fact that you effectively wasted his time, whether it was 30 seconds or 90.
In short, you are wrong. The strategy is still good unless you go to an unsafe loop (which means that even with the pallet dropped is not safe) or a loop without a pallet, and WoO allows you to do this strategy perfectly without any possibility of making that bad decision. That's why this is another problem of WoO.
Knowing where loops are is not the same as knowing how to play them. How to checkspot them. How to mindgame them. How to correctly run them
But if you know how to play them, how to checkspot them, how to mindgame them, etc., being able to perfectly path to those loops that are still safe thanks to the pallet and never, ever get to a dead zone by choosing wrong without having to pay attention to your surroundings or remembering where those pallets are is a huge (and unfair) advantage. That's the point, and why this is another of the problems with WoO.
And once again: predropping as soon as you get to a pallet is not efficient.
Wrong, as we already saw.
Good players will buy much more time than someone that is just running to yellow with WoO.
Nobody is saying the contrary. But this doesn't change the fact that WoO also allows someone who is not a good player to buy a lot of time, as it removes the need for:
- Not having to memorize where pallets spawn.
- Not having to memorize where unused pallets are.
- Not having to plan their escape in case the killer finds them in a gen.
- Not even having to know how to loop, as they can go from pallet to pallet predropping it, wasting the killer's time.
While allowing those that are good players to buy even more time, by:
- Removing any luck in your decisions by making every single one informed.
Which allows perfect pathing between loops on chase, removing any possibility of making a mistake.
In conclusion: All advantages at any skill level, no cost, no drawback, not even the need to have a minimum game sense already developed to get value from it. It should be nerfed so you cannot use it in chase, so it became a tool to easily see where pallets and windows are to remember them and plan paths without it being an autopilot perk that replaces good game sense. Simple as that.
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Couldn’t we argue the same for seeing all gens on killer side? Except you don’t even need a perk for that. Both provide you important information about limited resources. Being able to see where all the gens are to pick out a 3 gen to defend from the start is the game is a pretty big advantage. And of course makes patrolling much easier. I love being able to zoom from gen to gen with wraith. You could also say being able to see items at the beignning of the match about being able to see more available resources, and you can slap on a franklins or a lightborn to counter them.
I don’t think nerfs should come to anything I’ve mentioned above because I don’t believe anything is “op/broken”. But windows does have a high pick rate so it will likely see some changes just like all the others, which only makes the pool smaller to pick from.
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This is a really good point and just another argument for why Woo should be basekit. Why do killers get to see where just 7 generators are basekit but survivors can't see literally the ONLY THING that can help them escape the killer in chase. The guy arguing above that Survivors are bad unless they go around memorizing every pallet is just insane. I guess Killers are bad if they can't memorize where just 8 generators are?
Post edited by doobiedo on1 -
Except generators and chases are two different parts of the game that have nothing to do with each other. The generator aura equivalent of WoO would be Déjà vu, and nobody is complaining of that perk allowing survivors to see the closest 3 gen aura all the match.
But I tell you what, I'm totally ok with only showing the aura of generators for a limited time at the start of the match if WoO is reworked in the same way: It shows all the pallets and windows in the map for 20 seconds at the start, and then deactivates. What do you think?
Post edited by Batusalen on0 -
Okay 7 pallets can be shown only at the start of the match to equal the 7 generators and the rest can be shown like normal.
Post edited by doobiedo on1
