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We kinda need a anti-stall mechanic for survivors
Comments
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I already explained to that person why BT never stopped tunneling off hook with the fact that the killers body block and wait out your BT to hit. They just tried to claim that we could run to a good loop spot or a pallet to solve that. 🤣
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Yes, it's death for both if the killer so chooses. After all they know where the 4th survivor is or was 30s and can slug for them. There is some variance and details in the implementation of course and but it's not anything more than a 50/50 on who gets to die with a high chance of 4k-slug after. I would like solutions to both by the way. What you are insinuating is quite disingenuous. These basekit changes allow survivors to play the game in the first place and guess what, killers received at least one of those fixes too - removal of locker flashy saves and then the entirety of 6.1.0. Of course these mechanics make it easier and harder for sides respectively because what they address is quite literally brainless gameplay like keeping a killer stunlocked for 12s or hitting survivors off hook without basekit protection of any kind.
Unsafe unhooks gets people tunneled. You have my sympathies that you don't win the game right there anymore and either have to take an easy trade or tunnel them out. It's indeed quite sad. Though funnily enough against strong killers safe unhooks aren't even that safe if they are even possible in the first place like huntress on a hill or anyone with mobility. For the record I don't agree with recent last sabo changes, hookgrabs were stupid though. We've strayed pretty far offtopic and this selective weighing up of changes/issues serves no real purpose.
in a situation where they have won alredy anyway
The game doesn't see it that way. It doesn't treat survivors as a team. I'm just pointing it out btw.
…okay, man. I totally said you should put up with this forever.
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To me, survivors hiding is like killers slugging and proxy camping for the 4k. Everyone is trying to ensure some sort of victory and it’s boring for the other side. But I do think they’re both intrinsically to blame for the development of this play style as they often come hand in hand. Both things need addressing and unfortunately it’s going to take changing how the game fundamentally works.
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I'm not complaining. I'm pointing out that most suggested solutions suck. Maybe you explain to me why a survivor happily running to their death is playing as intended or has any value from a game theory standpoint. According to the game no survivor owes the others anything. So someone showing himself without a way to escape to maaaybe enable the other to escape is quite literally a throw technically.
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No player is entitled to a win. Both sides should have a chance at victory during every minute of the game. Killers have natural comeback mechanics. Survivors do not. That is a problem.
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The simplest thing they can do is if survivors don't do something to progress the game after say, 90 seconds, I.E.
- Be chased
- Save a survivor
- Heal
- COMPLETE a totem/boon
- Do a gen for at least 5 seconds
Then they start to get crows, that way the survivors can't hide forever without doing something and eventually you can find them either through the crows, or naturally through them doing gens and making noise.
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This would be relevant if the survivors win condition was the TEAM winning. Its not however, its your own escape that matters. So prioritizing your survival over doing gens is all there is left to do.
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Im seeing a lot of "nothing for survivors to do"... Not true, they do have gens to do but CHOOSE not to do them as it will result in "certain death". So many say "what am I supposed to do, give the killer the kill?" Ok fair enough but if the killer doesn't kill either survivor and the game goes to server end time the survivors get automatically sacrificed anyway. Now you could say if a killer CHOOSES not to kill them then that's ok? I bet a lot of people would have an issue with that. They already have an issue with the 4min slug timer. If a killer kills 1 of the survivors then it's certain escape for the other one via hatch. Sooo it works the other way round, what is a killer supposed to do, give survivor the hatch?
I'm tempted to experiment with that, just not do my objective because someone might escape the hatch, take it to end server time. It's clearly ok for survivors to do it after all.
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Brings back memories of Freddy players instantly downing Survivors the second they got off the hook.
Good times… (/s)
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There's really not enough incentive for a survivor to try to finish gens in this end game scenario because there is lack of a comeback mechanic. Take a standoff between a Myers and a survivor hiding in a locker—who’s really in the wrong? Is the killer wrong for not letting the survivor go, or is the survivor wrong for not just giving up? The answer to that question says a lot about that individual and the bias they may have. Personally, I don’t think either side is wrong. Both are just trying to win the only way they can, and in this situation, I don’t see it as toxic. Both are being stubborn but the game will eventually end through a time-out, just like hiding out the game will eventally end through time-out.
When a survivor in the endgame decides to work on gens, they usually just get caught and killed. The killer is not going to reward them for not hiding. The same goes for a survivor who sacrifices themselves so another can get the hatch—I do this almost every game, and most of the time, I just get slugged and bled out while they hunt for the other survivor until they get found and killed too.
So, what’s really the “right thing to do” here? It depends on who you ask, but if we’re saying the “right thing” is to keep working on gens, even if it lessens your chance of survival, I think that's a slippery slope. Killers often use strategies like tunneling, proxy camping, or slugging because they’re the most efficient ways to secure kills, and survivors are expected to either A) use perks, or B) gg go next. Killers are allowed to play in ways that make the game less fun for survivors because it’s the most effective strategy, so survivors should be allowed to do the same. And working on gens in this end game scenario is typically not the best way to survive.
I'm not sure what exactly the best solution to this would be, I'm not a fan of the way it currently is eitehr, and I do welcome some kind of a change but being penalized for trying to stay alive does not feel like the right way to do it.
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I would hate to have you as teammate..
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For those questioning the nature of hostage taking with survivors. 2 pictures from the past have been brought up with the stuff currently going on.
Survivors have a objective to do and they are heavily encouraged to stick to it. While we do not know how long it has to be for it to become bannable for survivors. I can safely say in my case of 30 minute red forest game? Probably there was grounds to ban survivors for it. As over 15 minutes of it was them not even attempting to do their job. And I would rather besides resorting to bans have a mechanic that addresses this in some way. Whether it be aura reveal/ Killer instinct on the killer end and gen boost for the survivors. I wouldn't mind that. Slugging for the 4k has nothing to do with hostage taking as the game can still end for the survivor.
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can i ask what those natural comeback mechanics are without mentioning bubba trickster and huntress (facecamping)?
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Sure. The biggest is 3v1. :)
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3v1 at how many gens? idk how much of a comeback a 3v1 at 2+ gens can be called.
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There are very simple changes that could put an end to this problem once and for all:
- Make the crows and noise notifications appear due to lack of objective progression and not only lack of movement.
- When a killer/survivor stands still for a reasonable amount of time, make them intangible so you can go through them.
- Stipulate a reasonable limit to accomplish the trial objective. If a game lasts too long the “game collapse” starts and all the survivors automatically die for failing in their objective to escape.
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And that is exactly what my suggestion does, accelerates an end to a match whose conclusion could be long drawn out. Rats would just hide, and die since they don't have the time to survive in chase. Then the Killer couldn't slug to draw it out even longer, since they could pick themselves up, and is rewarded with a full kill on hook. Finally, the Survivors still have a chance (even in soloq) because they can watch the HUD and see how long their random has been on the game, and attempt to pivot chase over there by the time the gate is prepared.
The alternative is a server close after 4-6 9m59s gen taps to avoid bans, so I think this is much better.
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The problem there was Endurance no longer could stack. If the Killer hit basekit BT into perk BT into OTR into DH, then all would be fine, since the Killer could simply avoid all of those by chasing the rescuer instead. When the Killer has to gamble into how many Endurance states someone has off-hook, the game is better off. This might need something like 'no collision until CA off hook' to prevent body-block abuse, but otherwise is perfectly fine to have Endurance stack.
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There is a minor problem of actual stealth distracting the Killer being caught in the crossfire here. If I am such a god at stealth, that the Killer checks all the basement lockers while my team is pumping gens, and I'm within TR the entire time, I AM progressing the game for my side.
I would have a proximity pause (not TR, since stealth Killers exist) on the timer if the Killer is nearby, for those actual stealth plays distracting the Killer. A giga-rat wanting to keep the timer paused but not doing any of the above actions would have to full-on run behind the Killer to stay in TR, which would leave Scratch Marks and be enough for revealing them.
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You could simply have this mechanic not trigger until a survivor or 2 is dead.
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That still has the problem of someone actually hiding on one side distracting the Killer and the other person(s) pumping gens. Without a proximity system or some other system, that flaw still exists.
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In a 2 people with 2 gens left and a Spirit with gens relatively close? Neither of them tried to make a play and unless they could loop a good spirit for 180+ seconds then theres no point. I play altruistically often but in this scenario its just up to if you want to sacrifice yourself by doing a gen or not
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In that scenario i would try to finish the gen. If i die i die. I rather end the game in few minutes for all than hide in corners for 1 hour. My time is precious and so is the killers and in the end this is a game.
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Okay well some people would rather win and you can't blame or get mad at them for wanting too
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Are they winning though by being down to 2 gens remaining with only 2 of them? Eitherway they probably die just it's less of a time-sink for all parties if there was a mechanic that say gave the survivors more gen speed but killer instinct every 30 seconds or something. Against a normal killer. Currently They either die because their found eventually. Or die to server close after a hour. One requires the killer to run around the map for who knows how long checking every locker, Crack, corner and the basement. The other isn't even really meant to be reached in a normal game.
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It could also even remain for all four but pause, not reset, within a killers terror radius. Maybe start the timer off high but make it a little shorter each time a survivor is sacrificed. Might even make solo queue feel more bearable. I wouldn't even be against a less generous time. Maybe 60 seconds when only two are left
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Im not saying im against these basekit changes, im saying i dont like that killers get treated diffrently or killer issiues are taken less seriously.
And about the tunneling you mentioned. Before basekit BT was litteraly the reason why BT was meta back then. And it was arguebly stronger as a perk than the basekit version is now, i guess so they tried to not completely kill BT that way, but then you have OTR which if it wasnt bugged would be the better choice anyway0 -
which ones?
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Anti facecamp was NOT a waste of time. No more facecamp bubba which is a succsess in my book. And what do you mean by proxy camping??? do you expect the killer to go at the very other edge of the map to let survivors unhook in peace? If devs actively start going against every single strategy killers have, you will not have many killers left anymore. Its hard enough to keep up with gen speeds. And if you dare to say skill issiue, i can also say skill issiue the moment you even land on the hook. So anyone who gets proxy camped in the first place should just loop better.
How you can even say anti 3-gen was HELPING killers is a super wild claim and has litteraly no logical basis. Im not discussing if you are just inventing fantasy scenarios.1 -
Anti facecamp was NOT a waste of time. No more facecamp bubba which is a succsess in my book. And what do you mean by proxy camping??? do you expect the killer to go at the very other edge of the map to let survivors unhook in peace? If devs actively start going against every single strategy killers have, you will not have many killers left anymore. Its hard enough to keep up with gen speeds. And if you dare to say skill issiue, i can also say skill issiue the moment you even land on the hook. So anyone who gets proxy camped in the first place should just loop better.
Oh my.
Of course AFC was a waste of time. Since Facecamping barely existed it all. All the feature did was that you now have a bar which does not fill up while getting camped. And mind you, this is not only the Killer being the minimum distance to not trigger the feature away, it is also things like camping someone who is in the Basement or on other Hooks which are hard to reach for a Survivor who wants to go for the Unhook.
And well, nobody is saying that the Killer has to go to the edge of the map. To quote you, you are just "inventing fantasy scenarios". But if Killers dont even try to get into other chases because proxycamping is just so good, this is just a problem.
And well, saying that someone should loop better, in a time where Loops are so unsafe that you get easily bloodlusted… Not really a valuable tip. Except if you can tell me what I should do against a Killer who refuses to kick a pallet because bloodlusting is just free (if we look at free = getting the down).
How you can even say anti 3-gen was HELPING killers is a super wild claim and has litteraly no logical basis.
It is actually very simple, but you dont want to understand it. To prevent 3-Gens, they implemented a feature which almost never comes into play. I have never seen a Gen being blocked in my games, neither as Killer nor as Survivor. I dont say it never happens, but it barely happens.
However, the changes that Survivors cannot tap Gens anymore to stop them from Regressing is far more relevant for games. That they also increased the damage done by a Kick to 5% is also something that comes up in every game.
So basically Killers got a Nerf which barely ever affects them, but got also a Buff which is more relevant and a Buff which comes up in every game where a Killer kicks a Gen.
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And i repeat, facecamp bubba is GONE. It was worth it.
My loop argument was just preparation in order to combat any "skill issiue" nonesense post that will come up when i say how it is and that gens get done way too fast. Usually 2 gens are done before the first hook. The 5% you mentioned are not a good trade if you look at pop, pain res, eruption, call of brine, overcharge and even ruin. All of these are shallow versions of their former strength, which is the reason why killers resort to tunneling and camping in the first place because pressuring gens is a loosing game.
Instead of punishing certain playstyles, the playstyles we want to emphasize should be REWARDED. only that way we can get away from tunneling etc. Also survivors should have a diffrent objective than only gens, as most people perfer longer matches than a match where one side just stomps the other in 8 minutes.2 -
Not disagreeing at all with the start. But on the last part it's actually fairly frequent for me to go up to a gen with claws when running a kick build like buffed trail, oppresion, survelliance. Combined with like surge. I don't know if that means the gens fully blocked or it's a visual bug since it happens when I haven't even kicked the gen more than 3 times and maybe it got blown up by surge like twice. It should block at 8 right?
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survivors have a built in coin flip to win if they get stomped, not seeing the 50/50 pity kill mechanic anywhere
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It gets blocked at 8, but the spikes appear earlier, most likely as a warning.
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You're suggesting they revert some of the hatch changes that have been made? That's a new one.
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Complaining about hook sabo's when you usually have four hooks all within 8 metres of each other is actually hilarious.
You talk about how making unsafe hook rescues used to be a bad play that could be punished, yet it still is a bad play that can be punished. If you think immediately downing the unhooked survivor, who has no control over when they're unhooked, is punishing the unhooker then you're dead wrong. The unhooker doesn't care. If they did, they wouldn't unsafe unhook in the first place. This is actually why basekit BT became necessary.
Why do killers need a mechanic in place that's going to guarantee them a 4k if they get down to two survivors remaining?
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It's a major flaw in game design when most of the time if there are 2 survivors left their best chance of escape is trying to out-hide the other survivor and get hatch. On the other hand 2 survivors left should not mean a free 4k for the killer.
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The problem with this subject is that any potential solutions are going to have drawbacks that leave one side unhappy.
Killers don't want survivors to stall, which is fair enough. Survivors feel like it's a lost cause when only two of them are left and there's more than one generator remaining, which is also fair.
The problem is finding a solution that's somewhere in the middle of what both parties want. You can't give killers a mechanic that's going to guarantee them a 4k, as then the two remaining survivors automatically lose.
You also can't give the survivors something that's going to guarantee their escape, either, as then it forces the killer to accept a 2k.
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same reason why survivors need their mechanics. To combat annoying scenarios.
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It doesn’t matter. Turning a match into a 3v1 at pretty much any time carries a chance at massive snowballing for the killer. Survivors don’t have that as an option unless the killer allows it. Killers don’t need a survivor’s buy-in or consent to turn a match into a 3v1.
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Imagine never playing killer. Because i know you dont by the statement of yours. With background player, sabo boxes etc its not even possible to avoid the wiggle free, most of the time when squads play that way they run boil over too..
Dont be disinginious.0 -
I wouldn't mind due to it being more intense.
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The only one being disingenuous here is you, buddy. I do play killer. I almost never play against sabo squads. I'd find any claim that suggests they're even remotely common to be dubious at best.
You claimed that sabo plays are guaranteed now, because of the changes to sabo toolboxes, yet never bothered to mention that it's only really guaranteed with sabo squads.
Except that the mechanics survivors get to combat annoying scenarios are not guaranteeing them a win. You remarked about double standards, yet you're asking for exactly that. That's rather hypocritical, don't you think?
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I dont say the solution has to "guarantee a win" thats where you are mistaken and its not my fault you make assumptions. But the fact that we dont even want a solution obviously is where the double standards hit.
It doesnt matter "win" or not. What matters is, that its a very frustrating experience to killer when it happens, the stalling is annoying and happens more than people want to admit. But we are hard against it in this community. Why? because its something that COULD benefit killers even slightly.
Also shall i mention hook grabs removed again? Talk about not guaranteed something, as i said safes used to be a risky play.0 -
The 5% you mentioned are not a good trade if you look at pop, pain res, eruption, call of brine, overcharge and even ruin. All of these are shallow versions of their former strength, which is the reason why killers resort to tunneling and camping in the first place because pressuring gens is a loosing game.
Yeah, dont bring this into that. We were talking about the 3-Gen-thingy, nothing more. Bringing in other things does not work.
Otherwise, a few years ago they increased Gens from 60 to 80 seconds. I guess this is even more impactful.
And well, saying that Killers resort to tunneling and camping because of nerfed Perks is also a blatant lie. Even during the strongest Regression-Meta we have seen that tunneling and camping are omnipresent. This just shows that all encouragement does not work to remove those playstyles.
And i repeat, facecamp bubba is GONE. It was worth it.
All this work just for that? Not worth it at all. Let alone that there is 0 difference between a proxycamping Bubba and a facecamping Bubba. Once the Survivor reached the Hook Bubba is there and will down the Unhooker immediatly and go after the unhooked.
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It does not work to remove these playstyles because its not "encouragement" if you nerf the things people need to keep up, its punishment. Encouragement would probably actually help to lower tunneling. And yes sure it was around still. But it has spiked and became more and more, as other playstyles have been gutted aswell. Wether they be fun or not is a diffrent story.
And no, you dont get to cherry pick what kind of arguments i can bring, and its not even about 3-gen. Its about a mechanic for an annoying scenario that killers have to face. And i brought the survivor mechanics as example for the clear bias that is going on with the developers but also people in the community, like you.
Also its very disinginous to claim facecamping doesnt matter while proxy camping is still possible, these are 2 very diffrent things and by no means should a hook be just a free safe at all times. This is why i know im speaking to a survivor main, even something as simple as a mechanic against stalling games is too mutch to ask.0 -
This topic has, of course, progressed exactly as one would expect it to on the forums.
:(
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Yeah I thought it'd start as a simple "should this mechanic exist" and seems like people think generally it should. The question is in what form would be the most fair lol. I think like home sweet home did could work with a faster objective but frequent aura reveal or Killer instinct. Both sides should have a chance at the 2v1. Not this hiding and hunting for up to a hour.
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Glad you give valuable input!
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i'm not saying tunneling is okay but, by definition, a comeback mechanic only activates specifically in a losing scenario to help the losing party and tunneling isn't that i'm afraid.
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