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We kinda need a anti-stall mechanic for survivors
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Thanks.
Glad my habit of just posting my observations without bias or being diminutive to others is paying off!
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I mean what do you think about the topic? I mighta missed yours but all I saw was a reply I think lol. The funny irony of this whole thing is (maybe from the drama on twitter) Lilith had people do this exact thing 3 different games today. Now he obviously found them eventually and slugged them to death. It was funny to watch. Apparently he has recommended a remedy to this whole mess ages ago. His version was after 3 minutes of no chases happening everyone's aura is revealed on both sides.
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If they escape yes they win and if the server closes that also counts as a 'win' because its not a loss.
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We do want a solution, just not one that favors either side heavily. If a solution favors killer, then you end up with problems where killer gets a guaranteed 4k while survivors have to get a 4E in order to win.
You want to talk about hook grabs? Okay let's talk about hook grabs. Let's talk about the stupid hook standoffs that would happen because the killer refused to just take a trade. Let's talk about how DS, which was rightfully nerfed, used to allow you to get grabbed, stab the killer, get the rescue, and then have the rescuee body block you with BT.
As I've already pointed out, the solution to this stalling problem needs to be one that doesn't favor either side. It's a give and take situation. Both sides get something, but they both have to give up something in return. Killers want an anti-stall mechanic, well survivors want to feel like it's still possible to escape if there's two of them left and more than one gen still required to activate the exit gates. Nobody's going to agree to just be a sacrificial lamb.
The entire reason survivors stall when there's only two of them left and more than one gen remaining is that neither survivor wants to just give up, but doing gens feels a little pointless given the likelihood of being found since it takes 90 seconds to do a gen solo.
Post edited by Kaitsja on1 -
Don't they literally die when the server closes?
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Pallet depletion, the ability to camp hooks because the anti camp mechanic is a joke and literally any killer can guarantee a trade at minimum, less areas to patrol as gens are completed so less places survivors could be, gen regression from kicking gens, even if you only killed one survivor the game gets exponentially easier for killers and the only gen that matters is the last one, I'd say NOED but that's a perk not a basekit feature.
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Nobody was complaining about the 'face' part of camping, though.
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None of that helps when killers are "losing", if anything those mechanics are "win more" mechanics because the more time killers can get BEFORE they start losing, the easier it will be
Out of al those things less gens are only thing that can be called catch up, even then if survivors decided to not 3 gen themselves killers are pretty much doomed, you really don't know how the game works
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That's just you did not tried to read the opinion of someone else, then
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the ability to do gens, heal and unhook should i say as a response to this? survivors don't have infinite resources just like killers don't have infinite gens survivors have to do.
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No, legitimately, no one's complaint was 'the killer is standing too close'. It was always unhook denial.
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Except for the insidious bubba meme I guess lol.
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If you read carefully, my entire argument was that the mechanic is circumvented completely by standing not that far from the hook.
Specifically, the person I was responding to was wanting "an equivalent anti gen" mechanic for survivors. Which is why I offered that any solution should be disabled if the survivor crouched for one second. Because it's a sarcastic way of saying that a trivial, base kit way of getting around the mechanic makes it nearly meaningless.
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what did killers get in return for removed hook grabs? what did killers get in return for the anti facecamp?
no, it doesnt always have to please both sides. But sure keep these double standards, when killers get something there needs to also be something for survivors but when survivors get these mechanics it doesnt matter if killers get compensated.
"We dont want a solution" is exactly the core issiue i have with all of you.0 -
But my point is that nobody asked for the 'face' part of camping to be removed. People want camping out, not 'the killer is not respecting social distancing'.
So this whole 'anti-face-camp' mechanism has been a complete waste of effort, since it solved a problem no one had. It's just empty fluff.
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It's true that is that not always have to please both sides, The problem is the scale of the basekit mechanic you are trying to get against the one you are comparing (anti facecamp)
What changed since the anti facecamp was released?
Barely anything, the killers that facecamped before now are camping 7-8mts away, so the results are the same.
What would change if the aura reading/crows/hatch-removed mechanic is released in the 2survs/+1gen scenario?
Every killer gets a 4k.
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you dont realize that in these stalling games most killers get a 4k anyway too. It just takes mutch longer. And i havent said a single thing about hatch.
Also, acting as if Anti-facecamp doesnt do nothing is just straight out disinginious. If the facecamp meter doesnt fill itself up its on the survivors fault. And guess what, if you dont use basekit BT to your advantage to get away, its the survivors fault too. Killers shouldnt be punished for the survivors fault and i think its overdue killers get something basekit aswell for how mutch survivor has gotten in the recent years.1 -
Yes, most stalling end with a 4k, but what you are trying to change is a 'you get a slight chance to escape' to a 'you will always lose' scenario. I dont think killers need a basekit mechanic to eliminate any chance of escaping the survivors have.
Anti facecamping indeed affected some players, but the great majority of the playerbase wanted something that could prevent actual camping, or proxy camping and got nothing.
Let me give you an example
Imagine if BHVR decided they would release the afk crows/aura reading you ask for the Stalling situation but the mechanic would Only work if the survivors were hiding behind rocks and called it Anti-Rock mechanic. You would probably think But 'What about those survivors that are hiding behind trees, lockers or buildings that are far more that the ones that hide behind rocks?'
And when you point out the flaw of this you get RandomGuy21 telling you 'This is not the Anti-stall mechanic, It is the Anti-Rock mechanic, It was never meant to work in all situations, it is working as intended'.
This is basically what happened with the anti-face camping.
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well, hooks are not meant to be a safe game all the time, that is true. Thats why they did anti FACEcamp instead of anti proxy camp.
Do you want the killer to just never get any sacrifices because hooks are made a non-issiue for survivors? Being on the hook getting camped with no interaction was an issiue, which is now solved. As soon as you are off the hook and can run again, its your task to reach safety. Thats on you. Also on the unhooker to try to body block if the killer wants you that badly. And the others are supposed to rush gens which you can also do when the killer proxy camps.
Tools are there enough, people just dont use them and demand even more handholding.
And no you dont get a "slight chance of escape" when the killer sluggs for the 4k. You'd think you want games to be over faster rather than slower in those scenarios. Same goes for survivors refusing to touch gens if there is only 2 left. The killer WILL get them. Question is will it be sooner or later?
Ant thats where we need a mechanic, killer has alredy won, it just needs to be over faster. Especcialy to discourage hiding for 20 minutes straight and not touching gens.2 -
So… in other words just don't feel like having an actual conversation because there are mechanics in place that help killers catch back up?
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Look, i am not going to start a debate whether camping and hooks are strong or weak.
I am just pointing out that the antifacecamp, that you are constantly using to try to get one on one with your idea of Crows and aura reading, is a laughably weak mechanic that is circunvented extremely easy and barely changed the game.
Remember always If you are going to defend the 'The killer has already won if it got 2k before all gens are done so it deserves the 4k everytime' stance, that BHVR expects a Kill Rate of 60% on average. Meaning that for that idea to be truth they will need to nerf every single killer until getting a 2k will only happen 60% of matches.
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If you want to win an argument you would do well to not put words in peoples mouths… I did not say:
"The killer has already won if it got 2k before all gens are done so it deserves the 4k everytime"
I say, in a stalling scneario, the killer always wins. Your argument that any aura reading or crows would change anything other than time spent is simply wrong.2 -
The stalling scenario is literally the '2k, +1 gen' scenario where the two survs left hide because they cant realistically repair the remaining gens without dying so they hide to wait for hatch.
Is there another stalling scenario that you are arguing for?
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no. But if they hide for hatch and it takes 20 to 30 minutes for the killer to get both or if they hide for hatch and it doesnt take as long for the killer to get both…
Does it really matter? Is it about ending games faster or wasting as mutch time for everyone as possible? There is no change in sucsess for either side if there was an anti-stalling mechanic. It just makes infiriuateing situations take less time.2 -
The only one who doesn't want a solution is you. You claim you don't want a guaranteed 4k, but at the same time you say killers need an anti-stall mechanic basekit and survivors should get nothing because killer constantly gets shafted. In other words, you want a guaranteed 4k. You talk about double standards, but isn't that exactly what you're asking for?
Hook grabs being removed was an insignificant change. You can still interrupt an unhook, and you can still get a trade. The only thing that's changed is now there's no silly mindgame being played out at the hook that's going to result in the hooked survivor's death.
While it's certainly not always about getting something in return, when it comes to something significant like an anti-stall mechanic there needs to be a bit of an exchange. You may have liked hook grabs, but that doesn't mean they were healthy for the game.
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hook grabs removed was not "insignificant" hag lost a whole playstyle because of that.
And no, AGAIN i have to repeat myself. I dont like that whenever survivors get something, its fine if killers have nothing in return. Im not argueing wether or not some mechanics are fine or not, im saying hook grabs and such have no compensation brought with their removal.
But when something as simple as an anti stalling mechanic is requested, however that may look, we IMMEDIATLY go wild and say survivors need compensation.. That is bias.2 -
Hook grabs being removed was an insignificant change.
i didn't follow any out of topic discussions after some point but, did you play during those times? removal of unhook grabs were a 10 times better anti face camp solution than self unhook bar we have now. you couldn't go for unhook as one person last second against a camper, you needed 2 people off gens (impossible levels of coordination for soloq) or you risk allowing killer camp a hook and a slug. game is basically over then.
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You might not know this, but prior the AFC/grab changes I could literally stand right in the hooks and grab any savers and drop right below the hook, pretty much makes it a guaranteed 4k with ridiculously low effort
Not even One hit killers are needed because it works 100% of time against any solo players, it was extremely strong "strategy" that consists of as little interactivity as possible
Calling "hook grabs being removed was insignificant" really tells the amount of knowledge you have in the game, you really better learn a little more
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After 19,685 matches over the course of six years I have to agree.
- If a chase hasn't started for 4 minutes, then the effect of whispers is granted until a chase starts.
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Yes, I did. Contextually, I meant it was an insignificant change balance-wise. I mean, let's be real here. Killers lost the ability to grab survivors attempting an unhook, what could we have possibly given killers to compensate for this that wouldn't just make it pointless? The argument being made is that killers should've received compensation for it, when it didn't actually change their chances of winning or losing.
@Neaxolotl Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. That also has nothing to do with balance.
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it was a balance change but more so a game health change just like the addition of basekit bt. i do agree balance (or not) changes don't need compensation every time but i heavily disagree it was an insignificant change that didn't weaken killer.
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The stalling is a symptom, not the disease. Fixing the stalling wouldn't fix the problem.
Survivors aren't stalling in this situation because they want to stall, it's because they want to win just like the Killer does but their chance of success just plummeted. The best option they have at that point is to outlast the other Survivor. It just so happens that if everyone is trying to outlast each other, no one's going to get found. Whoever caves and starts trying to do generators again first is likely to be the one who gets found first (and without even finishing the generator), so no one wants to do it.
Any Killer who can get the Survivors down to 2 when there are more than 2 generators left, is a Killer the Survivors are too terrified of to continue such a risky objective. I know if I was them I'd rather "Surrender at 2" than keep trying generators at that point.
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As you say you would surrender at 2...best way to do that is do the gens and get caught which essentially gives the other survivor the pitty escape. The option to end it is there. If there are 2 survivors left and there are 2 gens left and neither survivor is willing to do the gens then that's an acknowledgement they lost the match but also want to win regardless. they only hang in for the hatch which results in slugging the last 2 to give the killer a chance to find it and close it before a survivor does. You are right, the stalling is the symptom, the disease is the hatch. They want to win, they know they can't win so instead of conceding the match they stall. Get rid of the hatch or give survivors a set time to get gens done. If they fail to do them it's a loss, move on to next match. Eliminates stalling, eliminates the need to slug and survivors can finally accept the match for what it is at that point....a loss.
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There's a huge difference between humbly bowing out insurrender and walking into a meat grinder to be brutalized.
The Hatch is there because there's no other way for a Survivor to win at that point. If you believe that the Survivor shouldn't have a chance at winning at that point, then the better solution is to just have the match automatically end at that point. Forcing a match to continue when the Survivors have no chance of winning is just stalling so the Killer can rub it in.
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ive been in this situation so many times, i always just stay on gens until the killer finds me, hoping they will hook me and the other survivor has a chance to get hatch...and 90% of the time, the killer leaves me slugged to find the other survivor, and we both die anyway.
not blaming the killer at all of course, its fine to want the 4k... just pointing out that doing this doesn't really give the other survivor the pity escape most of the time.
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You disagree that it didn't weaken killer? You can still force a trade, and you can still intercept before they reach the hook. I can't count the amount of times I watched someone die because of the stupid hook grab mindgame. So, other than the mindgame, and hurting one playstyle for Hag, what did it do that made killer weaker?
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What’s that?
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you couldn't solo save against a camper, even if it would be a trade. i'm surprised as a survivor player (i'm assuming) having played back then you don't understand the importance of the change.
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The problem with that statement (which I assume you applied to 2v1 hiding at the end) is that it also can be applied to old 3genning as say… Launch Skurchent.
"Well you don't need to 3gen just because Skurchent is good at it, but some people would rather win and you can't blame or get mad at them for wanting to."
If it sounds a bit dismissive when said about Killers, it is when said about Survivors too.1 -
I understand the importance of the change, but I don't see it as a change that made killer weaker. Sure, you couldn't solo save against a camper, but you just took their place anyway even in the event you won the mindgame. So, really, it didn't make killer weaker. This is why I say it was insignificant, from a balance perspective.
It was certainly significant for the health of the game, but had very little effect on the overall balance of the game. Certainly not even close to having enough of an effect to warrant a hypothetical basekit buff to killers for its removal.
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That's not quite true. Because the complaints were mostly about face camping. An argument could be made that many of the people that complained about face camping confused it with regular camping but that was the part that was most complained about.
BHVR have no intention to remove camping completely and I think that's probably for the better. Any system that would punish the very concept of camping would be exploitable and feel absolutely horrible. It would be like a worse version of a base kit Deadlock, which already isn't exactly fun to play against. But at least it comes as a perk and not a base kit feature.
They could probably tweak the AFC a bit more but removing camping in general would end in disaster.
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Any system that would punish the very concept of camping would be exploitable and feel absolutely horrible
I disagree with this, especially considering practically nothing has been tried to accomplish it. There was one attempt in year one of DBD's lifespan, it was a haphazard attempt, and now everyone just throws their hands in the air with an 'oh well, we tried' and that's that. Nothing since. I just think that's quitter talk.
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They haven't tried because it's pretty obvious. What options do you have to stop the killer from camping? Only 2. 1) Replace the killer by a bot. 2) Punish them flat out for being within a certain proximity of a hooked survivor and punish them hard. It's pretty obvious that option 1) is not desirable. So we have option 2) left.
In order to stop the killer from camping you either have to remove the entire unhooking mechanic completely, teleport the survivor to a different location whenever the killer comes anywhere near them (which could also backfire for survivors), punish the killer by increasing repair speed drastically or remove the unhook timer altogether. None of these are good and all of them have a big effect on the overall game.
- Teleporting a survivor to a different location immediately removes the entire point of strategically beneficial hooks, so we dumb down the game. Not great but not enough for it to backfire completely. A survivor would need to be teleported away immediately when the killer comes close or we just get the same issue we have now. Increasing the overall range by much would only lead to them teleporting around the entire map constantly, especially on smaller maps and it could also be used so that survivors can't unhook their team mate.
- Increasing the overall gen speed is another horrible idea because it would need to have a pretty wide range or we'd have the same effect we have now. You can't punish a killer for simply existing on the same map as a hooked survivor. Technically you can but you get the point. Do that and you punish them for the very act of hooking.
- The unhook timer is the only way for a killer to put survivors under time pressure. Removing that means, they will either stealth for prolonged periods of time until the killer is away and then unhook or rush gens and ignore their team mate (doesn't matter who wins in this case because I'm pretty sure nobody would appreciate being left on the hook minutes).
If you have any ideas how to tackle this issue without it being excruciating on killers overall or simply exploitable, then I'd be happy to hear it. But so far any idea I've seen was exploitable or ridiculously unbalanced. As soon as an anti "X thing" mechanic punishes a player even when they don't do "X thing" it becomes a problem overall. Just think about the psychological effect. "Oh, you got a hook? Good job buddy. Now we punish you because you might actually try to camp that hook."
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2) Punish them flat out for being within a certain proximity of a hooked survivor and punish them hard.
Or 3) Tackle other aspects of camping, such as the lack of engagement with other players.
The unhook timer is the only way for a killer to put survivors under time pressure. Removing that means, they will either stealth for prolonged periods of time until the killer is away and then unhook or rush gens and ignore their team mate
Well, survivors playing stealth until the killer leaves is not a problem, but a solution.
As for the genrush: They'll be less efficient than if they go for the save, so it's hardly a punishment for the killer. Plus, if they leave them on the hook, and the killer gets a second down, he's two downs away from a 4K.
The solution, aside from punishing camping, should also be punishable by an active killer. In my opinion, the hook timer should just extend based on the number of survivors on gens. If the killer's on the move and keeps pushing survivors off, they won't get punished. If they sit under hook and let survivors just work on gens, they're going to see that hook timer stretch. Survivors could gamble on it, but if the killer gets a down before the survivor is rescued, the survivors will be on the back foot.
There's a lot of wiggle room in a system like this too, making it possible to finetune it. There's plenty of potential for a good camping solution in this that's never been attempted. Closest thing is Reassurance and Camaraderie, but both of those also sink survivor's time, defeating their point.
People often say that the only real counter to camping is to slam gens, and the problem with camping is that passivity and lack of interaction, so hinge the countermeasure on both of those and you get a much more tailored solution.
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