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Thoughts on "boring/uninteractive" killers?
Hey i watched a video from scott jund (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h10-JuLwEU) recently and it got me wondering how many of his points were true, alot of the killers made now days just ignore survivor skill and just make the match uninteractive and boring
this goes for all your deathslingers, nurses, spirits and such, these killers all have a common trait in which they can all ignore looping, any killer that can't do that is at a massive disadvantage.
Looping is the survivors only defence mechanism agains the killer, and deathslinger isnt hard to beat or godly by any means, but in a loop hes just as bad as spirit because his aim is unreactable and he can keep raising his sight to zone you closer to him.
Going against a clown is extremely boring because all you do is pre drop a pallet everytime because if you don't he'll get a free hit on you.
Answers
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"These killers all have a common trait in which they can all ignore looping, any killer that can't do that is at a massive disadvantage."
This is exactly why.
Any Killer who doesn't have anti-loop just can't end the chase quickly enough to keep up the Gen Speed. Nobody wants to buy/play that Killer, so it makes sense for Devs to avoid creating these type of Killers.
So far I don't see any way to fix this. If you make the Killer interactive (AKA loopable), he will be destroyed by Gen speed.
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You can not include Deathslinger with nurse lmao. In no way does he remove skill expression, in fact he offers more to the survivor by dodging his spear.
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All Killers need some kind of chase power otherwise they are bad and unfun.
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i wouldnt take things that people like scott jund say too seriously
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Wesker and Nemesis are good examples of okay anti-loop.
Sprit and Deathslinger are pretty awful to play against.
The problem is excessive zoning due to lethality and ease of access. Scott mentioned 'you're not dodging you're getting lucky' and he's right. The counterplay being to hope the killer messes up or is bad, not the survivor being good, at least in chase.
Naturally these killers aren't overpowered because spread efficiency still defeats them, but that doesn't exclude them from being annoying.
Pre-Nerf Xenomorph was the same nonsense.
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Prenerfed xenomorph was bugged, and the nerf didn't make it easier to dodge it's attack or anything... THATS exactly the same.
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I'm aware. But the recovery was such that it didn't matter if you dodged the attack because you'd get hit anyways.
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i think you guys are missing the point, if you win against a deathslinger or spirit, you didnt do anything, the deathslinger just misses, its just a game of guesses
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Theres no windup time to his ability, its just unreactable and instant, he can keep spamming his sight so he can zone u for free, he is not fun to play against at all, the best you can do is spread out and push gens
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There is actually a wind up animation. When he was released there wasn't an animation and he had a super small terror radius….back then i disliked deathslinger so much….nowadays he is fine though still not a lot of fun to verse.
If you can just pre run. Killers like DS or trickster will have a really rough time if everybody pre runs
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Yeah but his ability and many others dont allow for skill expression through the survivor, and im saying this as a killer main, i played spirit, and it was astounding how the survivors could do nothing except guess where i was going, its part of the reason why ranked/pro play will never be taken seriously in this game.
Deathslinger's wind up animation isnt anything like pyramid heads, which is way better and allows you to prepare a counterplay
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But that means it is still the same. You can dodge a slinger shot and he has to reload. You can mindgame a spirit (if your not making much sound/she does not have dried cherry blossom) and she has to recharge. The survivor is still, a lot of the time, dependand ono the mistake of the killer. That includes Xeno as well.
Im suprised that the worst offender of that kind of design is not mentioned already. A survivor has no counterplay against a Nurse that is on point.
Slinger has a wind up animation, that got added because he literally didnt have one in the past. That made him a lot more managable to play against. He can also not spam it. He has too reload. Thats downtime for the survivor that should be used effectively for example: to make distance.
Slinger is 4.4, which means that he is dependent on his power to catch survivors. Therefore he is pretty oppressive in chase and awful outside of chase (no map mobility).
Furthermore, slinger has a very high skill ceiling. If you cant see it, i encourage you too play him a bit more or to watch some fancy compilation / guide on youtube.
Last but not least, spreading out and pushing gens is the best you can do against almost every killer except maybe twins?
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Brother people make the excuse that nurse is hard to play, so its ok for her to be that broken, lets not pretend that spirit has proper counterplay that makes survivors have to use conscious decisions, its just educated guesses everytime, and if she has mother daughter ring then theres nothing u can do
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Interactive on survivor's side is uninteractive on killer's side for most of the time, though
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A game of guesses sums up DbD pretty well.
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yeah, these people speak so confidently about things they have no idea of.
they think chase in dbd should be streamlined and entirely depend on one side entirely with no risk for them, so if they just get good enough, they'll win every single time which is how they define skill expression. that's not how things work or should work. look at nurse.
they often fail to recognise or just outright ignore the situations where killer must take a risk and "guess" in order to win the chase as fast as possible which is where survivor can make a play, guess (aka make a read - prediction what the killer might do) and win more time and instead focus on situations where the killer has full control over them getting a hit as they already got close enough to survivor.
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a killer being boring is subjective. If you don’t like how a killer plays don’t play it. If you don’t like versing a killer just try and win to end the game faster. Uninteractive Killers are almost always interactive for the other side. If you find playing as a killer is uninteractive and you don’t like that just don’t play it. If you dislike versing a killer you find uninteractive for survivors either try and end the match quick or try playing as killer for a bit.
Both of these issues are pretty much completely subjective.
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I think people just want to be able to use their skill expression bro, theres literally nothing fun about getting tunneled by a boring killer, this is part of the reason why solo survivor is so miserable
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and i brought up nurse as an example of a very one sided gameplay dynamic which is the opposite of how it feels to play as m1 killer that are different ends of the "onesided boring gameplay" dynamic.
all other killers offer enough skill expression that people simply fail to recognize.
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Nurse is not that hard. Most of it comes down to experience and playing safe. There are killers that are a lot harder to perform well with than Nurse. She has a high skill ceiling, but performing really well with her extremely easy. If I just want to stomp, I play Nurse. Thats also why I play her rarely. I like to have my games be challenging. In the case that I do eventually play her, I do it with self imposed rules like: "dont use perks" or "only blink after a hook" I though we where well past the notion, that Nurse is hard to perform well with. Guess not.
Spirit has counterplay, sadly its very much dependant to sound. People that are hard of hearing or dont have a good headset will struggle a lot more against Spirit. Spirits counterplay is found in her directional audio as well as pallet mindgames. If one phase does not result in a hit, that usually means a lot of time is won by the survivor team. Spirit is a 4.4 killer that has a power with a decently long cooldown. Every missed hit out of power costs her a lot. Clever pre dropping or faking directions can make Spirits not just miss survivors but also outright win the chase for survivors. Despite being very strong, I dont think the MDR is the addon one should fear. Dried cherry blossom negates almost any counterplay the Spirit has due to survivors being shown with killer instinct while phasing. This addon should have changed a long time ago. Sadly it only got buffed for some reason.
Im not pretending. Im stating facts. A spirit cannot ignore a god pallet. A spirit can also be stunned out of phase if youoo are that bold to try. She does have a lot of counterplay. What you describe is pre rework Spirit. That version had no counterplay and was almost always a 50/50.
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Legion with Enduring + Spirit Fury…
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Have you played killers without anti-loop lately? It pretty much feels like torture, especially with everyone running WoO, the gameplay loop for you will be, run to a loop, survivor circles around it for 2-3 times, drops the pallet, you break it, he goes somewhere else. And don't give me the same talk about playing around the pallet instead of breaking it cause you can only do that for like 20% of the pallets on a map.
It's miserable playing anything without anti-loop, even playing Doctor, that has a minor anti-loop option, sitll sucks.
I'd be fine with the anti-loopers being nerfed if WoO gets dismantled
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The reason i bring this up because for these" uninteractive killers" every pallet or loop is played the same exact way every single time, you just predrop a pallet early for clown or else he'll beat you to the pallet everytime bc of bottles
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That’s not even remotely true. His ADS used to be instant and they nerfed it to be much slower. Not to mention he slows down to 92% when ADS. Not to mention even slower when reloading a single shot weapon.
It’s relatively easy to dodge his spear honestly. Unless the playing them is cracked. But that’s the case for almost every killer.1 -
it does have a wind up its just faster than typical powers. Besides hes helpless if you break los.
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Once again I find this "looping is the only defence" argument. No it's not. Survivors have a full arsenal of perks to use for different tactics. They just choose not to use them. I'm a Myers main and the best way to beat Myers is prevent him from getting T3. So many survivors don't seem to acknowledge this and instead of losing line of sight or hiding in a locker BEFORE I hit T3 they think it's a good idea to loop which gives me line of sight to build up to T3. Only then they think "oh lockers" but by that time it's too late. I sneak up on unsuspecting gen workers and mori them. So those survivors get eliminated as a result of the loopers. Some killers looping works, some killers looping doesn't work but people use loops as a crutch way too much. Id say use different play style to counter the anti loop killers.
As for the boring element, that's subjective. Survivors might find looping fun and some killers might too but there are many killers that don't think the scooby doo routine around a pallet is fun. It's repetitive, loop for ages, move on to next pallet and repeat. In my matches, as pyramid head I take out the looper asap by tunneling and camping if necessary.
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for me it depends really I still find knight to be the least interactive killer honestly
AI controlled things have no place in this game with exceptions to survivor bots or killer bots
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Deathslinger with his slow movespeed and height is easy to see coming and hide from. But don't you dare suggest using stealth as survivor; everyone knows that stealth is bad and means you suck at the game.
I mostly jest, but playing against Deathslinger means you have to path differently. Yes there are some tiles where he can shoot you no matter what. There are also plenty of tiles he cannot shoot you except for very brief moments, and throwing the pallet down will usually prevent these shots from connecting. If you just want to run in a circle till he gets close, of course it is going to feel like no skill was used when he inevitably does shoot you. You want to utilize jungle gyms, and connecting tiles with LOS blockers. Anything to make his shot harder.
It is a skill expression on the survivors end to know what map tiles are strong against a killer, even if they still go down if you made the Deathslinger's down longer than getting two tapped, you have already done well.0 -
For me, there are no boring or uninteractive killers. Of course, there are killer combinations which can be frustrating (Plague or Legion with Thanatophobia as an example), but never boring.
Each killer has something you need to learn from. Looping is a strong part of surviving, but other aspects such as being unpredictable, perk usage, stealth, defensive are also important. Learning how to work with others in SoloQ is also interesting as the dynamics change.
Eventually, with enough wins, you'll face a killer who is clearly way better than you. That's where someone can wither just state it's impossible, or be willing to learn that there's more they could do.
Mind you, there actually is one boring killer: the survivors who give up because they got downed early. Thpse guys really are the dullest of the dull.
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In my Opinion KIllers with Anti Loops are more fun to go against. It requires a bit more then just running in the Killer's opposite Direction and holding M1. Only Exeption are the Nurse and the Huntress.
Also i love interactive Elements/Items that makes it easier to Deal with the Killers Power for a short while, but still let them have a Power that is useful in Loops and Chases, like the Singularity, Dredge and Vecna. (Technically also the Xenomorph, but he looses his Power completely and he becomes a simple M1 Killer. And his Power isn't even good, but that's another Story…)
BUT also don't forget the Killer Side. Almost every M1 Killer is not fun to play at all, because Gens are done way to quick. And just looping a Survivor with any Anti Loop ist simply boring.
And to End this, i also don't like instadown Killers. It just feels bad to make one Mistake and then you're down. And is you get a instadown as a Killer if does not really feel satisfying for me. Also instadown Killers make many potential new Players quit DbD as a whole if they go against instadown Killers in their first couple of matches.
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